Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Cowboy Action Shooting perfered caliber?

whats the perfered caliber for c a s ?
25-20/32/20 /44?
i have an 1892 win in 25-20 and was wondering
if its adequet for the job or if i should sell it
and get something a little bigger
what say the hive?

Most shooters use either .38spl or .45colt. I prefer the .44-40.

The .38 is preferred by gamers particularly due to the lack of recoil and faster handling.
Remember there will be some knock down targets so you need enough power to reliably knock them over, also it's often referred to as "the old bang and clang" not "the old ping and ting" so bigger is better

I'm not a CAS person but I've read that there is some movement towards the 38-40 due to the lesser recoil and other desirable characteristics.

I'm not sure. I'm in it for fun not to race so I'll stick to the full noise .44-40 or .45 colt.
I am tempted to join the dark side at times and go black powder just for the fun of it.

Like this?

Yep, like that.
I enjoy watching this lady shoot, love the smoke she puts out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwSHdbhe1NI

The pics I posted are me.

well done!

CAS is a lot of fun. Those not yet there need to go on line, check out a club near by and go. CAS are the nicest, friendliest of all the shooting sports family. They'll let you shoot their guns, burn their ammo, just to show you how much fun they're having. That's why, IMHO, CAS is the fast growing shooting sport out there.

BTW, from my experience of around 5 yrs. in CAS, the .38 spec is first, the .45 Colt is second, with scatterings of others. Most CAS shooters like straight wall cases to reload. Many beginning shooters start out with .45 Colt and migrate to .38 spec. The .38's are cheaper to load and do kick less. But, you don't have to use mouse phart loads. One can make a .38 spec. go bang/cling pretty impressively. Some select categories require a min. of .40 cal. but most CAS shooting can be done with the .38 spec.

If you're around BP shooters, you'll see more 44-40's, 38-40's and .45 Colts. Many of those (you assume right, I'm not one) are hard core, claiming that this smokeless stuff is just a passing fad...

BP is just too smelly and nasty for my delicate tastes...

DF

I am using either cap & Ball 44's or .357 cartridge guns. Just fill up the case to near the top with BP or substitute on the cartridge guns and squeeze in the bullet!

One of those polluters who makes all that nasty smoke...!

HA!

I GUESS I could see how that could be fun...

But, by now I've spent way too much time harassing the BP shooters at our club, coughing when they shoot, complaining about being down wind, threating to call the EPA, etc...

Too late for me to join the "dark side"...

DF

NEVER too late!

My problem has been finding enough appropriate firearms of the right chamberings at the local gun stores. I suppose I could go online or get a gun store to special order some for me, but getting two revolvers and a 10 shot lever action rifle in the same chambering has been tough. I am set up for .45 Colt but would like to find a rifle for .357 and another pistol for .44 Magnum. It is nice loading out of one cartridge box.

I generally shoot .45 Colt but occasionally mix and match other chamberings, .357 revolvers with 32/20 or .44 Mag rifle and 44/40 and .44 Mag revolvers with any of my rifles. Shooting out of several cartridge boxes can get interesting.

Most of the real serious shooters at my club shoot .357/38 revolvers and rifles. Several shoot black powder.

We generally have a Cowboy match each month as well as a Wild Bunch match on a different day so we can run a bunch of ammo through our 1911's.

I've never had much luck finding suitable CAS equipment at a local gun store. CAS is a specialty market, generally not well served by the typical gun store. Check on the SASS wire and on line for equipment and suitable vendors. Often one can find guns that are CAS ready, just be careful on "over gunsmithed" items. There are a number of vendors, like Longhunter, Cody Conagher, Pioneer, and others who supply ready to go guns, done right. Club members often trade and sell their stuff as they move up the equipment food chain.

Looking back, if I had gotten a good '73 in .357 with an action job, probably short stroke first, I'd have owned a lot fewer CAS rifles. I guess we all have to experiment with various type scatterguns and pistols. Just part of the experience and the fun.

DF

Go to a match and see if somebody will give you a past issue of the "Cowboy Chronicle", it is the official paper of the SASS and a treasure trove of vender's.

Also stop by here: http://www.sassnet.com/

As TL said, cowboy chronicle is great reading.
Another suggestion is to simply pass the word round your local club and around at other shoots as to what you are looking for, someone is sure to have something suitable sitting in the back of their cupboard or on a shelf in their man cave.

Two months ago on a club day I mentioned wanting antler handled .44-40 revolvers, last month a guy turned up with a pair he wants to sell on. He was from another club but came along to our club day, travelled about three hours, just to show me the guns.
It made a good excuse for him to do more shooting too of course.

I read Cowboy Chronicle with great delight. Those gun adds are quite tempting. I may break down one day and order some firearms that I have not been able to find locally. I do have enough toys to field several shooters so do not really NEED any more guns. I would LIKE, however, to find the correct firearms to have a complete set of two revolvers and a rifle in .44 Mag and in .357 Mag. I would even like to get set up for .44-40 and .32-20. I already have plenty in .45 Colt and use them for most shoots. Part of the fun is the hunt for the firearms that would complete a set.

Longhunter modified Rodeo II's are a lot of gun for the buck, IMHO.

If I was looking for top performance value, right out of the box, I'd have to put those on my short list. I like Rugers, but after a full house modification to "run like a Colt". Stock Rugers are too easy to skip a round and click, click, click, click, boom is all to common. Just don't see that so much with Colts and clones.

Longhunter modified Rodeos are cheaper than Rugers with a full house action job, which done to the max, can cost over $350.

DF

I have a pair of Rodeos in .45 Colt that I enjoy shooting. Both are out-of-the-box but shoot very nicely. They just feel right. Most of my cowboy revolvers are Rugers and have been quite reliable except for one old Vaquero in .45 Colt that I bought used. Someone had evidently done some shadetree gunsmithing on it so that it would over-rotate. A trip back to Ruger fixed that.

I have heard nothing but good things about the Longhunter products and services. I use some of his leather products.

You cited many cartridges but not one caliber.

I bought 45colt Vaqueros and a model 92 rossi. They are strong enough to use for hunting and they really smack what ever you point them at.

CAS guns are pretty specialized and don't make the best hunting guns. And good hunting guns don't make the best CAS guns.

"Smacking" the steel is fun, but not the most competitive scenario in CAS. FAST is king, and unless one is into one of those classes requiring .40 cal. or greater, the .38 Spec. rules...

Also, the easiest and least expensive round to reload.

Fast to reload, fast at the range and cheap to feed...

IMHO, how can you beat that...?

DF

I look at it differently.

The 45colt is more versitile and a better choice if someone is looking to do double duty. My Vaqueros are more than accurate enough out to 40-50yds for deer, and the Rossi 92 is good to 75-80 with the full buckhorn sights. I load lighter [7grs bullseye]for CAS matches and load hotter [17grs 2400]for hunting.

Even with my guns, the biggest issue to placing well in the matches is due to misses, and time transitioning between targets and weapons. The recoil of the 45 has never been the cause of my placement in matches.

If one was pushed into one set of guns for multiple roles, then I would agree that the .45 Colt is more versatile.

One issue may be regulation of a non adjustable sight revolver. If it's set up for CAS loads, it's probably not going to be right for full powered hunting loads. I like to have a set of CAS pistols set up for a load, one that I can depend on for POI/POA compatability. And that can be done by adjusting the barrel left or right with the proper tools and filing the front sight to regulate.

DF

I agree.

I currently use 44/40s in a pair of tuned Piettas and an 1873 Uberti clone. I also have an 1866 Uberti, also in 44/40.

I used a pair of 45 Vaqueros and the 1866, but decided to shoot classic cowboy and wanted to have a set of guns that gave me no trouble at all, so I bought new stuff, all set up by a gunsmith (one of the most respected in cowboy action stuff here). One pistol worked like a charm, one had trouble with a cocking notch that was broken, the rifle needed two gunsmiths to 'unsmith' it, the shotgun needed the sears re-cut and still isn;t working properly, I just figured it had an improperly constructed hammer and the notch needs filing down, I will get to it.

44/40s are good, feed slicker than frog snot, but are a bit fiddly to load and you lose a few cases. Number one choice if you want to shoot black powder.

I've heard that some of the "big name" CAS smiths got so busy they had to bring in help. The more people in a shop like that, the more cracks for something to fall thru...

The good ones will make it right.

DF

In black powder I like .36 but my ".36" pistols take .350, .375, and .380 round ball.

In close cartridge I found that I like .45 (LC) in black powder after trying a few rounds.

My wife shoots .38 S&W and .38 Spec. I noticed that all of the other ladies were shooting .38 Spec at the last match here. I have been playing with a couple Colt Navy conversions in .38 S&W which shoot nice.

Our shotguns are 12 and 20 SxS.

One thing to consider when buying rifles is that you might want to shoot Wild Bunch some day. The rules have evidently been recently standardized and don't allow rifles of the smaller chamberings. Wild Bunch uses 1911 .45 ACP pistols so the size of a revolver does not affect Wild Bunch shooting, but the shotguns and rifles used for Cowboy Shooting can do double duty if they are the right chambering and model. I use a 12 gauge M1897 Winchester and a .45 Colt Marlin for both.

I've only recently started shooting SA handguns, after 3 decades of shooting double action. I looked at 38Spl/357 magnum, but I only have limited funds, and I wanted something a little more on the traditional side, so I opted for 45 Colt. I am not disappointed in the least. FUN, with a capital FUN! I thought about a lever gun in 45 Colt, but learned that it wasn't historical, so I stuck with a 45-70 -- cartridges from the same year.

A friend of mine shoots Cowboy Action and he has 357 revolvers and rifle. I razz him all the time about cowboys who shoot powder puff loads in 38 Spl, and pink lace bloomers.

I really like the 45 Colt.

I shot 45 Colt and 38/357 as my hands got more arthritic, but went back to the 45 with BP as they actually shoot easier for me.

Then there is the cap & ball .44's that I really love to shoot!

I have a pair of Limited Edition SS Rugers in 38-40 with .40 cal cylinders. They are full house Ron Power conversions. That process plus the cost of the guns is way over the top, probably why you don't see many set up like that. I traded for these, used, and got them right. I also have a 1910 vintage Win 92 in 38-40 that is real slick.

So, if I have a weak moment and (heaven forbid) go to the dark side, I'll use the 38-40. It's a good BP ctg, and will shoot 180 gr. bullets. If you didn't already have your .45's, the 38-40 for BP would be an option worth checking into.

Besides, 38-40 was reportedly John Waynes favorite caliber. IMHO, can't top that one.

DF

.38 Special if you want to win.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with you, Swampy. Kinda makes me nervous.

I shoot .38 Specials and I occasionally win. One could shoot BP in the .38 Spec, but I'd probably go with the 38-40's if moving to the dark side. Those are SS and they're Rugers.

Here are my Colt Gen. 3, match pistols, .38 spec., of course. Way too nice to soot up with that nasty, black stuff...

DF

Here are the Spec. Ed. 38-40's, (full sized, original Vaqueros, not New Vaqueros) tricked out to the max. by Ron Power and Co. A bit flashy, but what the heck...

DF

Em's nice hand cannons!

Nice looking revolvers. You have to love those old Vaqueros. I just today picked up another .45 Colt SS old Vaquero. It is hard to pass by one when I see it in a store. I have one in 44/40, but a pair in 38/40 is way cool.

I do have two of the New Vaqueros in .357 and am getting a M92 that has been rechambered to .357 in about 2 weeks. I may start using .357 as my go-to chambering for Cowboy shooting. It really does seem to make a difference in speed.

What are you guys giving for an old Vaquero in very good condition down south there. Up here they run pretty high.

I see them anywhere from $400 to $600+ US Dollars.

The issues involved with reloading tapered cartridges, and the sheer volume of ammo needed for CAS would lead me to avoid them.

That's not a bad thing.

I have reloaded quite a few 44-40 and 32-20 rounds and do find that the thinner cases make it somewhat more challenging.

I do, however, get a fair amount of blowback in my Marlin lever action .45 Colt if I shoot mild loads. My 32-20 Marlin does not have that problem. I don't know if it is the thin cases or the necked down design of the case that cause a better seal in the chamber.

I am going all .45 Colt at the match tomorrow and am taking some slightly heavier loads for my rifle to see if I can reduce the blowback.

A Grunch will crunch a bunch of cases, but a careful reloader can do quite well and just about as fast. So, I guess it's confession time...

We're listening...

DF

Good point from experience. Blowback with light loads is exactly why my .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy is now a dedicated 'diller gun. I loaded 300 gr. jacketed and cast bullets over max loads of 4227 and I can assure you, there is NO blowback. Bad medicine for 'dillers.

I went from that gun to a tricked out Uberti 1873 Carbine in .357. I use .38 Spec brass and Moulton lead, 140 gr. long ogive lead bullets to achieve the .357 COAL. Works great. Check Moulton lead on line.

BTW, those bullets lead the forcing cone on my .38 spec. Colts, so I don't go there with them.

I was trying to have one load that fits all. Didn't work out quite like that. But, that's OK, too.

DF

My standard.45 Colt Cowboy load is 6 grains of Trail Boss behind a 200 grain RNFP bullet. It does give a fair amount of blowback. I tried 8 grains of Unique behind 255 grain SWC bullets this weekend just in my rifle and did not have a problem. Those loads are a little stiff for fast and accurate shooting in my revolvers. Since I was using two different loads I might as well have been using .45 Colt revolvers and my .32-20 rifle.



Are these the type of 'dillers you shoot?

The ones we have aren't as colorful as that one...!

By the time you get the .45 Colt loaded hot enough eliminate blowback, you have a load that's a bit hot for fast CAS action. Certain CAS categories require .40 cal and larger. The 38-40 is actually a .40 cal. and qualifies. Other than for those specific categories, I see no practical use for the .45 Colt in CAS. I'm sure that steps on a lot of toes, but that's the way I see it, having been there and done that.

IMHO.

DF

I started with .45 Colt because that what was locally available in both revolver and rifle. I continue to shoot a lot of .45 Colt because I do some Wild Bunch shooting that requires large rifles. I am getting rigged up for .357 and will probably use it more and more to see if I can get a little faster. I have used .357 revolvers and a 32-20 rifle for several meets. The difference the lower recoil makes is significant when you are looking for speed.

If I had to start over buying a minimum number of firearms for what I shoot I could get by real nicely with a brace of .38 Special revolvers, a .38 Special rifle, a 1897 Winchester, a .45 ACP 1911, and a +.40 caliber rifle. That would take care of CAS and Wild Bunch.

I think most of us in CAS go through guns until we get out "keepers". Mine are a pair of Colts in .38 Spec, a fullhouse race ready Uberti Carbine in .357 in which I load Moulton bullets in .38 Spec. cases and a Browning BSS highly modified for CAS. I have an '87 Coyote Cap full house lever gun and a Coyote cap '97 with full action job. I have a '38 vintage original '97 rigged for CAS. I'm using the double, but have used the other shotguns in the past.

DF

What's practical got to do with it?
This is supposed to be a fun game, what's more fun than making the steel rock and roll?

But then I'm biased (as are all of us) so I'll keep knocking the stuffing out of the targets with my .44-40 loads.
My opinion is that loads are only too hot when you have to go reset non-reactive targets.

Well, Marty. I see your point. But, from a practical standpoint, winning is even more fun, at least for me. So, a caliber choice giving maximum advantage for fast, accurate shooting makes sense.

Those that complain about 38-40 and 44-40 cases must not be careful, experienced reloaders. With my Dillon 550B, I set the powder die/expander so that I have just enough bell at the mouth of the case to allow the bullet to slip right in. If not enough bell, the bullet will grab the rim and the seating die will crush the case. Set up correctly, loading bottle neck cases is just about as fast and easy as loading straight wall cases.

IMHO,

DF

You're right DF, it comes down to what gets you going. Doesn't matter if it's going fast and winning matches or just blowing the stuffing out of everything you hit and coming in last, just as long as you're having fun and staying safe. If it becomes a one horse race and only light loads are allowed or the other way round the sport will suffer, diversity is what keeps so many people all coming together and shooting. The fact that we all have fun and maybe give our fellow shooters a bit of good natured ribbing for their choices, misses and other faux pas attracts others to the sport.
I know I chose this particular game as much for the people and the attitudes as the shooting.

I also agree about the reloading, and I'm not exactly experienced at it, as long as you take time to get it right to begin with you'll have no problems loading .44-40
I was almost put off shooting .44-40 by a few peoples comments about how many cases you ruin etc then an older guy told me the only time you ruin cases is if you're too rough or when you set up your dies for the first time. I think the first time I loaded .44-40 I ruined four cases, since then I load at least 250 a fortnight and don't ruin any.

The only person I compete with is me, I go to have FUN and clean stages mean more than fast ones to me.

maarty and T Lee,

You guys are both right on. It's about fun and CAS people are top notch. To me, they're the most friendly, most helpful group in all the shooting sports. I'm sure there are exceptions, I just never encountered one. They'll let you shoot their guns, burn up their ammo, just to show you how much fun they're having. Not many shooting groups are as generous, IMHO. Could have something to do with CAS being the fastest growing shooting sport.

DF

When I was looking into getting involved in some sort of pistol shooting sport I went to a bunch of shoots for different disciplines, the CAS shoot I went to was the only one where people went out of their way to talk to me,gave me a chance to handle their guns, explained what was going on and how things were done and let me shoot their guns.
That's what sealed the deal for me, the way people made a new guy feel welcome. From what I hear that's a common thing world wide in any CAS group be it NCOWS, SASS, or whatever.

And I hope it stays that way, hell I will even load my cap & ball guns and let newbies try them out and I am always trying to convert folks to the darkside!

I guess I am one of the weird ones. Like Terry, I compete against myself. Unlike most guys, I mostly compete against myself while I am by myself at the range. For me, and I may be a different dude, the whole game is focus and hitting the target consistently. One of the things I am working on right now is draw and shoot from the hip -- not speed draw, just safe draw from an 1880's holster and shoot at a bobber target. Trying to keep 5 shots inside a 4-5" disc at 7 yards after drawing and shooting 5 separate cycles. Gets me grinning like a silly cat that swallowed a mouse.

That and knocking the 6" plates around at 25 yards with the Vaquero and fixed sights. Love to see them get driven away with a 255 grain bullet even at a meagre 650- 700 fps.

Shooting is first abou safety, and then about fun, honing some skills and pretending you are Doc Holliday or Billy the Kid.

I started out using .45. Bought two Colts and a Marlin in that caliber, back in about 1997. I've never switched. Most people I shoot with seem to prefer the .38 for lower cost of reloading, and just lighter loads, and that's fine. I have one friend who loves the .38-40 and shoots original Winchesters in that caliber, but his Rugers are .45.

That's another good thing about CAS, it's a big tent with room for everyone. There are numerous categories with the classifications being continually looked at for improvement. It's a user friendly set up.

DF