Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Church? Where Have We Gone Wrong?

To add a little context to my point above, there are places in hostile environments (ie China) where the underground church is flourishing and strong with no new carpet, no air conditioning, no coffee bar; in fact no church building at all. Just preaching Christ in basements, back rooms, in corners of fields weather permitting. In many cases they don't even have Bibles but much as in the first century, pass around hand-copied, partial chapters of this book or that.

We, in more cases every day, preach an "easy, peaceful feeling" gospel for "seekers" and then add a 5 million$ wing or build a new edifice with multiple flat screens for those whom want to sit at the bar and sip their cappuccinos while the divorce rate here for those who call themselves Christians, as a quantifiable entity, is over 50%. (Of course there are many sins that are private and thus not quantifiable). I'm not saying that anyone who's divorced is not a Christian-- that's not the point.

Bell out of Michigan, mentioned above, is an example of which there have been many -- a wolf in sheeps clothing, again, preaching a No-Hell gospel. Jesus mentioned hell in the NT much more often than He ever mentioned heaven for example.

The first four chapters of The Revelation to John indicate that most churches throughout the ages are seriously off track in critical ways and we can apply this to individuals too in the broader interpretation (including myself).

But we are not to quit trying and as the prophets and Jesus did speak truth to power as uncomfortable as it may be.

Such was the case in Saudi Arabia when (l984�1985) I smuggled Bibles in and taught under-ground (night) Bible classes to large groups of disciples from as many � at one count � as fifty-several countries.

I used to be a roofer. My boss was an expert welder. He and his older brother developed their welding expertise by building hidden compartments in cars to smuggle Bibles across the iron curtain. He wouldn't say what country they were working in because at the time, it was an ongoing operation.

We, in more cases every day, preach an "easy, peaceful feeling" gospel for "seekers" and then add a 5 million$ wing or build a new edifice with multiple flat screens for those whom want to sit at the bar and sip their cappuccinos while the divorce rate here for those who call themselves Christians, as a quantifiable entity, is over 50%. (Of course there are many sins that are private and thus not quantifiable). I'm not saying that anyone who's divorced is not a Christian-- that's not the point.

But we are not to quit trying and as the prophets and Jesus did speak truth to power as uncomfortable as it may be.

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I think what we are seeing here is a general unrest in the true church today, that is the body of believers not the buildings.

I pray this is the beginning of a trend that leads this nation into revival.

I for one would be thrilled to find a home church doing God's work and worshiping Him it truth.

I will go one step further in this by making the statement "If the church was doing it's job today in this country there would be no welfare."

So, what is the real job of the church today?

Careful there, Scott! You'll be labeled a 'lib' or a socialist!

Funny how often 'socialist' themes appear in the Bible (see early church practices, Jubilee, Paul's admonition to work to have money to share, rich young ruler, etc.) Followers of Jesus ought to be the most sharing. 'socialistic' and non-materialistic people on the planet. Sadly, it's one area where we are all too often no different than the 'secular' (and I throw myself in there as well).

Rob Bell DOES NOT deny or question the reality of Hell--only it's nature. Read the whole book and try to think about and answer his questions honestly. For further thought on the subject listen to Greg Boyd's discussions on Hell on the Woodland Hills church website.

However, I am NOT a political socialist. Far, far from it. It the church was doing it's job then the socialist government would not be extracting money from the unwilling and those in real need would be receiving what they really need from funds willingly given. Those who do not really have needs such as those who think welfare is a legitimate career and just want to sit on their fat behinds would be forced to work.

Absolutely.

Unfortunately, due to human nature there will always be lazy freeloaders. Even in situations where the church is dispensing 'welfare' there are, and will be, cheats.

In the small community where my parents live a family started attending their small church. They supposedly ran into major financial problems with medical bills, etc. The churches in the area (and the community) helped raise funds for the family only to later learn it was spent on frivolities such as TV's for all the kid's rooms, etc. They quickly disappeared from the church, obviously. Kind of a dangerous thing to do in a small, mill town with a lot of people rather, uh, 'less forgiving' than the church folk!

Welfare, in and of itself, is not a bad/evil concept. However, it's like you said, the gov is totally incompetent (and uncaring) to handle it on the national scale (probably no entity could police it on that level). Hence, there is a LOT of filthy bathwater mixed in with the baby.

There's a sordid world of difference between socialist coercion and voluntary sharing. (I speak from a long life time of front-line experience on both sides of the line.)

The dearth of voluntary sharing leaves coerced sharing as the default "option" for many of us.

Just between you and me, I'm 99% incapacitated physically, 100% fiscally. I've spent my life serving without expecting or receiving compensation (with small, infrequent, and rare exceptions � what I got, I worked for). I've given vehicles and other valuable assets away, and tens of thousands in cash. Now I have nothing left.

Have any of you who've read my theological essays here read the blurbs just below the copyright notice? It may interest you to know two things �

� I've granted other ministries permission to use those and other essays without charge. And they've used 'em.

� To date, I've received exactly 0� from those blurbs. So I have to depend on a Social Security check that I have to sign under a microscope, so that I can continue to subsist on shadow soup made with dehydrated water.

And I still give what I can, whenever I can � voluntarily, not because socialistic government programs for free-loaders force me to.

(This is just between you and me � please don't tell anybody what I've just said about my own situation.)

My oldest daughter discovered her husband was cheating on her for all their fourteen years. He agreed to go to counseling but then just left her for greener pastures. He left her and her two children with no income. Then he set out to destroy her in any way possible including going to their church and mouthing off about how bad she was. Sew was counseled by a family councilor at the church to forgive him and take him back she opened up and showed her proof. The councilor was shocked as that was not the story as they knew it. But he was still welcomed with open arms even though he was living with another woman from his cheaters club.

When she went for help because she was behind in utilities and had no food she was told there were no funds to help. This was from a mega church with an annual budget exceeding two million a year. I know this because I served as an elder and a board member for over ten years in that church before we moved out of the community.

I can say with all honesty that is not the way to run a church.

I have not read the book but have heard from enough thoughtful, mature Christians, including John Piper of Bethlehem Baptist in Minneapolis who have read Bell and uniformly said, "goodbye", to him. And that is enough for me.

I would suggest you google, "Kevin de Jong Reviews Bob Bell", for added perspective.

About 1947, a man came to the parsonage one night with a heart-breaking and infuriating problem.

He'd come home the evening before to find the house as empty as a ping-pong ball and the mortgage and car payments months past due. He had only the clothes that he wore and the cash in his pocket. He'd just brought a good-sized salary check home, but that was gone, too � and he wouldn't get another for a while.

For decades, he'd given substantially to the Red Cross and other charities (which they confirmed). But they gave him ne'er a flippin' cent of assistance. His church, which he'd supported generously for decades, hadn't helped him beyond the offer of prayers.

Dad and I gave him Dad's overcoat (a valuable garment that I was supposed to inherit), all the clothes that we could spare, a suitcase, and all the cash in the house.

That is a sad story and on the face of it a shameful one (for that church).

In my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth, that is where giving should come from.

Of course all giving SHOULD come from the private sector. But the government can't have that as those who worship government (for their hand outs) might be inclined to worship elsewhere. No sir, can NOT have that....

I have often heard how persecution has a purifying effect on the church and believe it. A refining fire so to speak.

I also believe a church is for believers. To teach, worship, and mutual support so that during ,"the rest of their week" they could rightfully disciple, minister, and add to their numbers.

When church becomes about the unchurched things fall apart,IME/IMO.

Forgotten facts �

The books of the New Testament were addressed to people who were already disciples of the risen Christ.

They weren't written as systematic explications of Christianity for the untaught but as "problem-solving" reminders, to the faithful, of how to handle problems that had arisen within the ekklesia of Christ during the years after His ascension.

Heard a good sermon tonight on Judges 8, Micah's idolatry. Many parts of the sermon brought thoughts of this thread title.
Lines like,"everyone did what was right in his own eyes".
My pastor spoke to how our view as an individual,and church, of who God is being of utmost importance. Spoke of absolute truth. One way.
There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
Convicting stuff.

In our church this week, the preacher was a real Jerk!











Wait a second! I was the preacher this week!

True. I've many times had Mormons try to tell me that James was written to non-believers telling them how to work their way to heaven. However, it was written to saved Jews telling them how to use their new saving faith in Christ to work for the Lord.