Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting 6.5x284

SD is the measure of the bullets ability to penetrate it's target. It is THE most important factor if all other things are equal. A 30 cal 130gr bullet at 2700fps will never penetrate as deeply as a 180gr bullet at the same velocity. That's why certain bullets thru the ages are noted for killing way beyond their paper ballistics. A 175gr 7mm, 200gr 30cal, 140-160gr 6.5mm, all kill anything they hit.

No, it is simply the ratio of a bullet�s maximum cross sectional area to its mass.


By definition, if the sectional densities are net equal, all other things CANNOT be equal. Either the bullet mass or diameter must change.



Ah, so you choose to vary the mass as the only permissible other variable, but varying diameter is equally valid.

For myself, I�d rather hunt elk with a 180g .338� slug at SD .225 and 2900fps MV than an 80g .224� bullet with a higher SD of .228 and the same MV.

One has 3363fpe at the muzzle, the other only 1494. One has more energy at 265 yards than the other has at the muzzle. One drops below 1000fpe at 140 yards, while the other has 2235fpe at that range and doesn�t drop to 1000fpe until the 385 yard line.

Regardless of SD, a bullet cannot perform work with energy it doesn�t have. In the case of elk, the �work� is the rapid and inelastic deformation of bone and flesh. Energy isn�t everything, but I�ll take the larger diameter bullet and the extra energy anyway.

SD does NOT equal momentum. Momentum is what pushes bullets through objects, not Sectional density.

Throw in frangibility of the bullet in question and you get to the point of the argument. According to the SD argument a 165 grain .308 BT will out penetrate a 150 gain .308 TTSX. This is paper ballistics, not real world experience.

VLD's act differently than other expanding hunting bullets in that they penetrate a few inches before they come apart to disintegrate vital tissue. Those that have used them on elk like them a lot, those that have not seem to veiw them as just another frangible bullet.

None needed big guy. You would be just a little more credible if you have actually used a Berger on an elk and came back to tell why you didnt like it. At best, you are guessing right now.

Or have you shot one and can give us some reasons why you didnt like its performance?

I agree that there are plenty of good quality bullets available for thumping elk, Berger included. The OP asked about using a Berger for elk. Do you not think you should have actually used one before flapping your mouth in this thread? Did I miss where the OP asked for best guesses?

One does not need to actually use a product to have an fact-based opinion. One of the great things about the human mind is it can learn from the experiences of others through various forms of communication � a fact that is responsible for getting us out of the caves and away from primitive lifestyles.

Berger explains very clearly how their bullets work on their web site and there are plenty of 1st person reports of how they actually work in the field. For someone to choose not to use them because of those explanations and reports is a perfectly reasonable decision. To further communicate that decision and/or the reasons for it is also perfectly reasonable.

Have I ever shot a Berger at game? No. Am I likely to give up using products that either have or are expected to perform as desired in all situations I am likely to encounter to use a product whose manufacturer claims performance that may be marginal or worse in situations I have actually encountered? No.

Here is what Berger says:




13-15� penetration???

In 2007 I had a quartering away shot go bad when the buck stepped forward and turned just as the trigger broke. The 7mm 140g North Fork entered low on the right rear ham and was recovered from up against the sternum. A 140g Berger would like have killed the buck as well with the same placement, but meat damage would likely have been considerably greater and the buck would have been dead no faster. Had the buck been a bull , based on Berger�s claims of 15� or so penetration, the results might well have been a lot of additional meat loss with a good possibility or probability that nothing would reach the vitals. I�ve seen a bull shot in the hind quarter easily outdistance the shooter and eventually be lost.

Do I think a Berger would have worked for most every shot I�ve ever taken. Undoubtedly, because I try hard for broadside shots and have routinely turned down less than satisfactory opportunities. Still, one never knows when things will go wrong, as with that buck � which was a first and 25 years into my big game hunting career.

Berger VLD bullets? Thanks, but �NO, thanks�.

By the way, the OP asked


Nothing in there about actual experience, just a simple �would you�.

If actual experience was required by the OP, as opposed to reasonable choices made on readily available facts, the only possible and truthful answer is �Yes�.

If �Yes� is the only possible answer, why bother with the question at all???

The only correct answer?

Your answer to the "would you" is just a guess. Remember, you have no actual experience in sending a VLD into wapati.

Funny that you and a few others are always the first to jump on a Berger thread and say yucky, dont use. Yet you have no actual field experience with the bullet. I am still waiting for a Berger basher like you to jump on here and say that you put one right into the shoulder and the sob ran away. Thus, you shouldnt use them.

If you wanted a question answered on a subject, would you prefer the replies come from a person who has been there and done that or someone who is guessing?

Carry on girls... I have yet to see a living elk who had both lungs deflated and I have yet to see an elk get away that has his shoulder bones repositioned into little pieces. Lots and lots of bullets will do the above just fine from a proper indian in control of the trigger.

Dont think that I am pimping Bergers. I killed my bull last year with..... oh no, a SGK. How did that ever happen?

Another great thing is the ability to detect bullshit and until you tell me about your personal experience using said bullets, well.. let me go get my waders.

None needed big guy. You would be just a little more credible if you have actually used a Berger on an elk and came back to tell why you didnt like it. At best, you are guessing right now.

Or have you shot one and can give us some reasons why you didnt like its performance?

I agree that there are plenty of good quality bullets available for thumping elk, Berger included. The OP asked about using a Berger for elk. Do you not think you should have actually used one before flapping your mouth in this thread? Did I miss where the OP asked for best guesses? [/quote]


The OP ask "would you use"

140 VLD berger would you use for long range shot 400 yards for elk?

And I answered

No. I do not like the Berger theory/design of fragmentation. I have the opposite idea, that a hunting bullet should expand but hold together. I would go with one of the bonded, partitioned or mono metal bullets. Plain old cup and core bullets would be my choice before the Berger VLD. But some like the Bergers and take elk with the one you are talking about. So-----------?

8mmwapiti

You say I do not need a resume but have little credibility if not. You come off as if you think you are the one and only authority on elk and Berger bullets. And a judge of all others here on the fire.



Are you as pompous as you come off?


8mmwapiti

Pompous? Thats your call.

Authority on Bergers? Hell no. Used them, they work. As do many other bullets.

Reading comprehension? Go slap whatever teacher failed you.

Questions? Did your father fill the family freezer with game meat? What bullet did he use?

I have a friend that has the same stamp on his barrel and the same bullet loaded in his brass as the OP. Should I call him up and tell him to empty his freezer and sell it?

Some internet experts say it wont work.

I wouldn't pay much attention to anyone who killed one elk with anything...especially if was an easy set-up shot through the slats. Or even 5-6...that isn't "experience"...


Which is why I'll grab cues from John Burns or John B when it comes to Bergers or anything else.Years back,I listened to people around me who had real experience,and guys like Hagel, Page, O'Conner, Bowman,Bill Steigers...and then confirmed for myself.They did not steer me wrong.Which is why, I think, I've had very few bullet "problems",or difficulty killing things(nothing hard here).

These guys get to see a lot more,shoot a lot more, than most Internet dwellers who jump on a bandwagon and proclaim some bullet as the Second Coming after one elk.

I figure after 10-20 animals, you're starting to get the hang of things....more is better.

What part of "all other things being equal" did you miss? In a 30 caliber, A 165gr TSX will out penetrate a 150gr TSX. A 180gr Hot-cor will out penetrate a 165gr Hot- Cor, 180gr VLD will out penetrate a 165gr VLD, etc, etc, etc. It isn't complicated, all you have to do is read and understand.

My 6.5x284 seems to love 130ABs. I would not hesitat to shoot an elk with that combo, but have only shot deer and antelop with it so far.
I much prefer 284Win with 160NPs. I know they work on elk.
jmho
Tim

Part of my day job is to evaluate complex systems costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and give a thumbs up or thumbs down for production usage. Some of these systems get evaluated personally, in some cases I rely on a combination of information provided by the manufacturer and reliable but 2nd hand information and some get evaluated based solely on information provided by the manufacturer. It is not possible, desirable or even necessary to personally perform a �hands on� evaluation of each system.

The same is true with bullets. I fully trust the vids put out by John Burns and believe him when he says the Berger bullets have worked well for him. Same with you. I also believe, as I have stated before, a Berger bullet would have worked fine for most if not all shots I�ve taken over the years and �all� is probably the correct answer but something we can never know for sure.

I also trust the manufacturer when they claim 40-85% fragmentation and up to 15� of penetration. Berger claims the VLD is the best �long range� hunting bullet available and they may be right. Most of my shots at elk and deer are fairly close range, however, the longest to date being 350 yards and most under 200 � I want a bullet that will perform well from the muzzle to 600 yards, the limit of my practice, and don�t really care about ranges over 600. The Grand Slam, North Fork, TTSX, and MRX bullets have yet to disappoint at any range with most animals going straight down or taking no more than a few steps. For a Berger to provide reliably faster kills than these bullets have provided the animals would have to drop before the shot.

What concerns me is what happens when things go wrong. Based on Berger�s own claims and various reports by actual Berger users, I simply don�t trust a Berger to provide the same penetration as a North Fork, TTSX or MRX when a quartering away shot becomes a shot to the ham because the animal moved, as happened to me in 2007.

And yes, if actual experience was required, the only correct answer to �would you� would be �yes�. At this time I would not use Berger bullets and my response of �no� is therefore appropriate. Might I change my mind in the future? Possibly, but I think it not likely as I see no real advantage over the bullets I currently use at the ranges I�m willing to take a shot � and indeed feel the Bergers may not measure up in some situations that are reasonably likely to occur, again based on the manufacturer�s own performance claims and a belief that yes, they will perform exactly as so claimed. If the OP wanted to limit the respondents to those with actual experience the operative phrase would not have been �would you� but rather �have you�.

BTW, I�m glad the Bergers work to your satisfaction and hope they continue to do so. I�m not pimping Speer Grand Slam, North Fork SS or Barnes TTSX/MRX either, but they have all worked flawlessly and I intend to keep using them and/or bullets like them. (Well, not the Grand Slam any more, but not because they didn�t work.)

Still looking for the resume that YOU say I do not need?

8mmwapiti

Did not say they do not work. I said that I would not use them, and said why. Also said that others do use them and like them.

So my conclusion is that by your assessment is that anyone who does not want to use Berger bullets for elk is inexperienced and uneducated. The question if you will take time to read it did not ask if they will work or even how well they will work. The question was would you use them. I would not. Obviously you would.

I do not like the design/theory of fragmentation. That is not to say that it does not work nor does it say that no one likes it.


So you take what I said and conclude that I have little or no experience and that I was failed by teachers.

You say, and I quote (cut and paste)

"Your answer to the "would you" is just a guess. Remember, you have no actual experience in sending a VLD into wapati."

My answer is not a guess, it is a short and direct "no" I am not guessing I would not use them for the reasons stated in my first answer. But the statement that I have "no actual experience" is a guess on your part and it is also wrong.


I do not like your favorite bullet. Get over it!

8mmwapiti

I have never used those Bergers on elk, so can not comment on them. I have used several others though over the years. The Nosler Partitions always gave me good service and no problems, both in the .270, 30-06 the short time I used one and then the .300 Win mag for over 20 years.

I like them still today but also like the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and the Swift A Frames ever since they came out on the market. I never really had any success with those Barnes bullets and heaven knows I tried a bunch of them in several calibers. I shot some Bitter Roots years ago and those too were a very fine bullet for staying together and breaking bone on large animals like bears.

Now that's a quote everyone should remember!!!If everyone liked my favorite bullet the cost would double so I prefer everyone does not like it.

Jayco

Momentum, S.D., B.C., K.E. are all different and represent but pieces of the puzzle.

Monentum is Velocity times Mass (MV) and is an important part of the heavy bullet theory pushed by Elmer Keith and measured by the Taylor Index. Taylor and company used bullet mass, velocity and diameter to calulate the "killing power" of a bullet. This was a reaction to the high velocity crowd who were pushing Kinetic Energy as the ultimate measure of a round.

Kinetic Energy is mass times the square of velocity (MV2). This formula gives velocity a geometric gain and was the basis for lot of the hyper velocity ctgs of the day.

Both are true formulas and both are "right".

Sectional Density is a weight to diameter relationship and important factor in bullet penetration.

Ballistic Coefficient is the slickness in flight or the aerodynamic ability to resist deceleration from drag.

No one value has a corner on the market, as all play roles in bullet performance. It's when the right combination of factors comes together that a great bullet is born. And each set of hunting circumstances may well favor a different combination of factors. That's what makes ballistics such an interesting field of study and something for hunters to discuss and argue about, which is a healthy enterprise. Most of the time, that is...

DF