Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 358 norma unpopular?

I have a question for any and all that are interested. My latest obsession is a 358 norma mag, my question is as follows, are the balistics of the norma any real world advantage over the 338 winchester. I welcome any opinion as well as facts on the matter. thank you

Oh boy you have done it now. Hold on the sh-- is gonna hit the fan.

Don't know, but I will get back too you in a few years. My smith is making a 358 Norma for me.

I don't own a 338/06 either, but I do have a 35 Whelen. I am very fond of the 35 caliber, and I believe in using 250's or bigger in them.

My brother in law shoots the 338win and it will stop any rumnant or carnivore on this continent. I built the norma because I believe there is a big advantage given the greater frontal area of the 358. I'm no expert so, if i'm in error thinking this way then lets hear it. thank you for any input

I don't think there is a substantial difference in the two cartridges insofar as the game is concerned. Everything in the western hemisphere and probably the other side as well.

Probably the same real world advantage that the .375 would hold over the 358. Does it matter? who knows.......probably not (at least in N.A.) but it's an excuse to build a rifle.

JimF

For what it is worth, if I hadn't already had a 35 Whelen, I would have gotten a 338 (again). I like to keep things simple, since I already have a supply of 35 caliber bullets on hand, a 358 Norma made more sense.

Proof that you can rationalize anything if given enough time.

I guess its like the diference between the 308 and 3006. pretty much the same field performance? thank you for your input

I have owned and operated both since they were born about 1958 or so I think. I doubt if one could tell the diff in the field. I used the .358 more because I had a supply of 275 gr Nosler partition style bullets that my dad made. I still use it on elk and big critters with 250 Noslers or 280 Swifts and still have a few 300 Swifts. I saw my Bro put a 310 Woodleigh solid thru an elephants head broadside and it kicked up a guyser of mud in the water hole where the poor critter was mired. It had been blinded by poachers. Tough for me to watch I used to take care of elephants at the San Diego zoo.
I have shot several Cape Buff with that bullet, solid and softpoint. The PH was impressed with the penetration and so was the Buff.
The .338 is a more practical cartridge I think because it is more popular. I can launch a 250 gr bullet at 2,800+ with the .358 and about 2,700 with the .338. That is what I get with a 280 in the .358 which has about the same SD as the 250 .338. So the diff is about 25 grs of bullet weight and .020 in OD in favor of the .35.
-Doc-

You have the twin advantages of bullet cross-sectional area: the powder gasses act on a larger piston and do more work; and the bullet striking the animal has more potential for larger volume in the wound channel.

Of course I get the same advantages for my .376 Steyr, and access to lots of wonderful .375" bullets.

jim

The 338 fans will argue the superior sectional density, the 358 fans argue larger hole and increased velocity with like bullet weights. I had a M70 classic stainless 300Wby rebarreled a couple of years back, wanted a larger bore for hunting in grizzly country in BC. I went with the Norma and haven't been sorry.

The 338 fans argue that the 30 thou step up to the 338 from a 30 make the 338 much more terminally effective than a 30 cal, but play down the extra 20 thou of the Norma as unnecessary. On the other hand we hear that the increased diameter of the Whelen makes it as effective on large game as the 338. Why wouldn't the bullet diameter and weight of the Whelen coupled with higher velocities than the 338 is capable of be the best of both worlds?

I think the bigger bore size, is, well, bigger! Therefore I think there is a difference, whether or not it's measurable is the question. I would assume that if a shooter shot both at enough game, given similiar sectional densities, and equal velocity, that sooner or later he would come to the conclusion that the 358 delivered more bang, flop, on target.

I have 2 338 Win Mags and love them, but you won't hear me tell you that it's better than the 358 Norma, because whether or not bigger is better, the 358 Norma is, and always will be, bigger!

I had both a 338 and a 358, and ended up building another 358 if that tells you anything.

Realistically there probably isn't a nickel's worth of difference in them, but it did seem to me that the 250gr 358 hit a bit harder than the 250gr 338. I haven't killed an elk or moose with either, but I have slain a whole pile of hogs with both, including some real big ones. On the big stuff, the 358 just made more of an impression.

Of course I do tend to like the Norma because it is a bit off the beaten path, so I would not dismiss an argument that my observations were biased.

If there is any advantage to the Norma, it would be that a 280gr Swift A-Frame is available as well as some really heavy Woodleighs. Of course the Norma doesn't really have a lot of horsepower for the bore size, so you'd be driving them at less than break-neck speeds.

If you do go with the Norma, keep in mind that H4350 was absolutley MADE for the Norma. It sings with every bullet I've tried.

I had a .338 Win Mag for several years and a friend of mine had a .358 Norma Mag for even more. I was usually able to impress him with my recollections of the .338's performance and I was usually impressed with his recollections of the .358's. If we both cut out the hype we were partial to I'll simply state that it's (the .358NM) mighty effective on game with good bullets. If you like it, DO IT... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

thanks to all of you for the input. I have to wonder if there has been a comparison of the 358nm and the 338wm on ballistic gel or ballistic buffallo. that would be interesting reading. thanks again, Ill keep cheking this site periodically

Here's something moose survey

Interesting charts. My Uncle used a 7mm Rem Mag on his first Moose hunt, and it didn't go very well, which frankly surprised me. His next trip he took a 338 Win Mag.

He had killed a few Elk with the 7mm Rem Mag, so I don't know what to think. I know others who were there, and saw the shots, and all said the Moose was hit. Go figure...

Ok you guys got me going. I love the Nine Norma because it has worked for me for a long time. One reads that the .338 comes close to 375 H&H ballistics, but the 358 can equal the 375 with 300gr bullets. Not that we need that much power except for big bears perhaps.
I did a range session with my three rifles a .338,.358 and the 375.
These are the loads I use and they are close to loads listed in the Barnes Number 1 manual.
.338 250 Nosler
75/RL19, 2,748 fps

.358 250 Nosler
67.5/RL15, 2,830 fps

.358 280 Swift
72/4350, 2,710
No BFD they are pretty close, but here is the tie breaker

.358 300gr Swift(old style) .375 300gr Nosler
71/4350, 2,620 fps 72/RL15, 2,635 fps

One needs a 12 twist to stablize the 300 gr bullets in the 358 I think although my 14 shoots them OK.
-Doc-

My all-time, all-around, best load for several 358 Norma Mags, over the past 35 years or so, has been the 250 gr Speer spitzer ahead of 67 1/2 gr of IMR 4895 and a magnum primer.

Gets a tad under 2800 fps and is very accurate in EVERY 358 Norma we have tried it in, and we have tried it in at least seven rifles. It is incredibly accurate in some of them.

Needless to say, it is a very devastating load on big game. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Ted

Yep 4895 sure does work. That is all I used in the early days because it was cheaper then dirt from Hodgdon.
The only article I have ever read by a gunwriter on the 358 was by Jon Sundra. Jon concluded that one could easily and safely launch a 250 gr bullet at 2,800 fps with 4895,4064,4350,Varget,RL15. Layne Simpson mentions the 358 now and then but his 358 STW is bigger,kicks like a mule. He has a break on his rifle and it delivers about a 100 fps more MV.
My old Model 70 has a Shaw barrel 14 twist and will put 250 Speers,Hornadys and Noslers into one jagged hole at a 100.
The real beauty of big heavy bullets is they stay on course at long range. I have shot sub MOA groups at 300 yards with 225 Nosler BT. They have very thick jackets in calibers over 30 BTW.
-Doc-