Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR 45-70 BP Loads

Wow. Not much here on this subject. I read the links up in the other posts, and I am a bit confused. I took some Goex FFg -- 70.0 grains on the scale, and by volume. It fills the case. When it is tapped down, here is what it looks like.



Here is a picture of the bullet I am loading - a 405 grain wheel weight water quenched tumble lubed.



Hardly seems like there is enough room to use a grease wad in there. Tell me -- will these things work without a wad? Looks to me like the powder will be compressed between 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch without the wad.

What am I missing here?

There are a few problems with your approach, including tumble lubing and not using a wad. A .45-70 is limited in space to take a grease cookie, but you might be able to do so by seating the bullet out pretty far. You don't mention using a drop tube, but that is an essential step in loading black. Before you go much further with your efforts, check out this free tutorial. It's a bit dated, but contains lots of good useful info. You might also check out the Shiloh Rifle forums, perhaps do a search or several. A lot of experienced BPCR shooters are regulars there.

http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf

If you have other specific questions, I'll be glad to try to help.

I just got back from a morning at the range with a factory .45-70 I just acquired. All my shooting was at 300 yards, and my worst group was just over 6" and my best just over 3" or one MOA. For the first time I am trying paper patched bullets, no lube, and about 82 grains of Swiss 1.5 black powder going about 1300 fps. These are long range target loads, and wouldn't work for hunting, too fragile.

Good shooting!

Paul

I use a drop tube made out of 3/8 copper tube about 18 inches long. Pour slow and it helps pack it down.

Doc

I know a guy who made a drop tube out of an aluminum arrow shaft. Easy to make one out of just about any old tubing.

Paul

Here's a current thread about .45-70 loading on the Shiloh forum:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17550

Paul

Thanks, men.

Yes, check out the Shiloh forum. Get a compression die and pack that powder down. One can run as much as he likes as long as he does not ballooon the cartridge.

Paul: I had to look twice at your earlier post.....you can get 82 grains of powder into a 45-70 case? I thought for a moment that it was 62....cleaned my glasses.
Over at the Shiloh link there was this note - a different powder and granulation but still...

What kind of compression are you using with 82 grains of the finer Swiss powder and that big bullet?
No Lube? I lube the paper by hand, like you'd apply lube to a case being sized beeswax and olive oil.
I use pp bullets that I swage on a Corbin press to 480 grains.
Even with a 18" drop tube, i am at 70 grains tops. Bullets seated by finger into unsized cases,grease cookie, light crimp.
With all that, your best groups are better than mine.
Pete

Yes, I can get 82 grains of Swiss 1.5 in my .45-70 cases, and the load isn't compressed all that much. I use one or even two .060 wads.

The trick is a vibrating drop tube; couldn't do this without it. The bullet is finger seated to a depth of only about .150, and lightly crimped. Like I said earlier, it wouldn't work for hunting. I've tried two bullets, that patch to .451 or .452, and you can feel them slide into the barrel as you chamber your round. You can't extract a loaded round without leaving the bullet in the bore. When you think about it, this is almost like the breech seating that the Schuetzen shooters employ.

Paul

Yes, it does sound very Schuetzen-like.
You are patching bullets to .452". Is that correct? Or patching .452" to a larger diameter?
Do you have land and groove diameters for your rifle handy?
Bullet weight?
Pete

.452 as patched is correct. Bullets are .442 and .444 respectively, and the paper is .0025, so the patched bullet rides the bore. My rifle is a new-to-me Browning .45-70, with an unmodified chamber. A .451+ pin gage will fit down the muzzle, but a .452- gage wont go, so I guess the Badger barrel is about .451 and a few tenths. Reading Wayne McClerren's book on the Brownings, I learned that for whatever reason Browning chambered the .45-70 with almost no leade or freebore, so the rifling pretty much starts at the chamber. This led me to think it might work well with paper patched bullets. So far it seems promising, but I haven't shot it all that much yet. I have gotten groups just over one MOA at 200 and 300 yards, but I need to shoot more to verify and fine tune. I'm hoping to make this my long range target rig.

I apply the patches dry, with no lube anywhere. Of course, I have to wipe my bore between shots. Tedious, but in most long range match formats you have time to get it done.

I'm still a novice at this paper patching business, but so far it's been interesting.

Bullets weigh about 514 and 539 grains respectively, 16:1 alloy for the former and 20:1 for the latter.

Paul

Powder capacity can also be a function cartridge brand. Some have thicker/thinner walls and capactiy will vary. New brass (sized to minimum specs), and the practice of full length resizing can also reduce capacity.

Keith yes you can get by without a wad, if you don't leave the cartridge loaded very long.
Easiest thing in the world to compress 70+ grs of 2f blackpowder into a 45-70 case. Just slow pour the powder into the case, then place your wad on top, and run the cartridge into a Lyman M die or Rcbs M style expander die with the expander set to compress the powder to the level you need to seat the bullet without and undue pressure on the nose.
If you're using a good bullet with a proper bp lube there's little need for a grease cookie.
Patched bullets are best when patched to just under bore diameter.

Thanks, my friend. I have grown to trust your advice. Always seems to ring true. Appreciate it. I don't plan on hunting it, just doing a little informal shooting and personal arget stuff, maybe only out to 200 yards. Hard to find a shot much longer than that up here in the bush.

Always glad to help if I can..
Keep us up to date on your grand experiment.
Just spent the past week shooting bpcr with some good folks from Canada. There's a sillouete shoot at Bethune Sask, you might be interested in going to take a look at if you have the time.

Probably 12-14 hours each way, so I might have to look for something a but closer. Thanks.

Yep that's a fair piece to drive. Not real familiar with the activities up that direction, but will let you know of anything I hear about.
What rifle are you going to be shooting this load combo in?

For those who might be interested, here is a pic of a full length sized.45-70 Starline case charged with 82.0 grains of Swiss 1.5, Lot #150-506. It was dropped through my vibrating drop tube setup. It has not been compressed. As can be seen, there is ample room for a .060 wad, and a bit of compression.

Starline brass is probably the heaviest of cases, with the least capacity. Just as case brands vary in capacity, so does the density of different powders, and even lots within the same brand and granulation.

Just the way I do it and what works for me.

Paul

Just an H&R Buffalo Classic with the 32" bbl. It has proven accurate with lead and jacketed bullets, so I am just looking to see if it will shoot BP as well. Plus it will be easier to clean than my Marlin 1895.

It'll shoot the bp just fine. You'll need to use some lube other than the LLA tho, that stuff will leave a god awful goo mess with bp.