Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters I am now confused: re: 308 and 300 @400 yards

Teeder - You implied something that wasn't true. You don't have to agree with Hagel's loads/methods but making a statement like you did was not even close to real - like most of this thread. I tried to keep it light hence the faces I put in my post - but mispelling your name came out the wrong way. Looking back at it, accidently writing Tweezer was kinda funny though..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

No offense meant..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Allen, you bring up another excellent point... muzzle blast. Certainly and rightfully a lot is made over recoil but muzzle blast, muffs or no, also affects some shooters more than others and the 7RM, wonderful round though it is, is a real culprit even though it doesn't recoil all that much!

IMHO, in the end, it's gonna come down to this:

There are darn few hunters who are good enough riflemen to consistently practice at and take game regularly at 400 yards. The few that are and do will have already determined what it is that they need for that game and those ranges, paper ballistics be damned.

Me? About my personal limit is 300 yards; I can shoot accurately further than that, but on game and in field conditions, 300 is about the max that I feel comfortable sending lead. For that range, just about anything from a .300 Savage to a .300-378 will equal one very dead deer, with the differences being academic at best. I shoot what I want, and what I like, and what I'm comfortable with: right now a 7x57 and a .300 Savage.

If I can boil this all down, it says that a 300 winnie hits as hard as an -06 100 yds closer in, and 200 yds closer in than a .308. Also the 300 winnie can shoot without holdover about 50 yds further out.

Thats to say if you regurarly shoot game at "300" yds without lazering it, and that game is really at 250-350 yds, the 300 winny will allow you to more consistantly keep your shots in the vitals. That certainly is an advantage, and for the man that wants every advantage he can get to keep things going his way, the 300 winny is a better choice.

If you're a stone cold marksman that will lazer every long range shot, dial in the drop compensation on the elevation target and cooly squeze off, then a .308 win will work just as well as a 30-06 or 300 winny out to 400 yds.

Not sure where you came up with that 40% number but you might be overstating the case JUST a bit.

Max vels from Nosler #5 with drift @ 20 mph calculated.

308 w/165 NP/2820 (max vel)........drift @ 400 = 27.4"
300 WM 200 NP/2970 (max vel) ...drift @ 400 = 22.4

That's just under 19% with the more imortant factor being that the drift is only 5" different @ 400 yds. When shooting at those distances and conditions, one MUST compensate. Within reason, the amount of the compensation does not matter much if at all.

JimF

Good quote.....IMO, anyone that does not fit the 'stone cold marksman' description should not be shooting at game animals at 400 yds........period!! Regardless of the rifle/load one is shooting, and despite the distance of some internet kills, 400 yds is a long way. The rangefinder, the skill, knowledge and practice is far and away more important than the cartridge used.

One of the problems in relying on a magnum is that some folks might think they can get away with said 400 yd shooting without being very good or the requisite practice required to get there. This is a very common belief.

JimF

AMEN!

BMT

Randall

You hit the nail right on the head, no cartridge will kill em where they stand, and most will run. I actually like blood trailing animals, its all part of the hunt and woodsmanship. One can learn a real lot by trailing shot animals, like looking for disturbed leaf litter instead of blood.It can also show escape trails or trails that you never knew existed. Its kind of like being a detective and working out the details.

I shot a whitetail doe with an 06 and Federal's high energy 180gr TBBC this past fall. Being a fairly stout bullet blood evidence was not immediately apparant, and i started to doubt my shot. I noticed disturbed leaves in the direction of travel and got on the trail. The first thing i said to myself was, no healthy deer kicks up the leaves like that, even though i didnt find blood at first. 25yds down the trail i picked up blood, but not a lot, i stayed on the leaf trail and the blood got heavier and was bright. 75yds lay my doe and a good lesson was learned that day. The reason i used that load was i took a trip to Alaska for caribou, and wanted bear protection, since the rifle was zeroed and ready i used it. The TBBC performed well, the shot was mid ship and didnt hit much resistence but expanded well.

Correct. That's why I said "or so, depending upon bullet choice." I happened to pick the 200 AB vs the 150 AB both launched at 2950 to compare in order to give a similar trajectory (20 MPH @ 400 yds):

200: 18.0"
150: 25.4"

For that comparison, the 150 drifts 41% more. However much you'd miss by with the 200, you'll miss by 1.41 times that much with the 150 on an identical shot.

So, if one can only judge the wind to within three MPH, you can expect to miss by about 2.7" each shot with the 200. If you shoot enough groups like this, you can expect the trend to open up by about 5.4" horizontally. Depending upon what groups size you were starting with--are capable of in perfect conditions--that's not too pretty but it's probably still in the vital zone.

With the 150, a 3 MPH error puts you off 3.8" either way, adding about 7.6" to your groups if you shoot enough of them.

That still may not sound like much difference, but when you're actually out there practicing, groups in the 7-8" range will sure inspire more confidence than groups in the 9-10" range--much the same as people feeling more confident in a load that goes under an inch at 100 than one that goes 1.3" or so. And it's more likely to make a difference in shot placement out where we're talking inches instead of fractions of an inch.

From practicing, I know I need all the help I can get doping the wind. If conditions are good enough I get bored at 400, I'll back up another hundred or two, or three.... It's more fun to add to the challenge that way than using a load that's harder to hit with at the same range in the same conditions.

I'm sure people will find all sorts of reasons to complain about those numbers above--fine, they can run their own. But before they do, look at what I said in my first response to this thread. A guy who can judge the wind to within 2 MPH is going to hit a lot more with the .308 than the guy who can't judge it to within 5 but shoots the 300. Easily. That's important point #1.

However, there's no denying point #2: At some range both shooters will be limited by the wind. For both shooters, that range will be shorter with the .308 than the 300. Again, assuming all else is equal--if not, go back to my first post again.

So, split the difference with a 300 shamu (saum) and you have a handy, short action wonder that feeds like a dream and has reasonable muzzle blast. Easiest load I ever worked up was 168 triple shocks with H4350 in a 300 shamu model 7. BEAUTIFUL!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

264bore,

Thank you. Someone else out there actually doesn't mind - even enjoys - the hunt after the shot. I've had 'em with .22s (small game and varmints), .30-30s, .30-06's, .300WMs, and a bunch of others. Solid, chest cavity hits all, but each a trail and a story. And, each has taught me a whole lot about hunting and about myself. Much more so than any "bang-flop" ever could.

I'll take "Bang Flop" every time.As we age them quarters get heavy especially in 50% grades.

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for all of your information.

If recoils is not a factor, is there still an argument for a .30-06? Possibly the lightweight issue?

If you have a .300 win. mag. and a 375 H&H, is there a need for an in-between cartridge like a .338 win. mag.?

Good hunting,
Brooksrange

FWIW:

JJHack, our veteran African professional Hunter, only uses the 30-06 and the 375. If his 30-06 won't do it, he moves directly to the 375.

JJHack has mentioned the 338 as being a perfectly fine cartidge, but that the 30-06 and 375 are universal favorites for darn good reason.

BMT

Bullet selection is always a big criteria. There was an earlier post on a 270 being great but horrible with failsafes. And then horrible with 30-40 and 3030 rounds also because of bullet choice.

One has to decide what reaction you are looking for and what you can sacrafice. I stay in the camp of max penetration just in case. And I no longer refuse to shoot a second time(that arrogance almost cost a deer) or third time. As long as the animal is moving.

Let me add that over the years I've seen some strange things. And one is that even IF you center the vitals, just depending on damage, the animal may still survive. So that is factored in to bullet selection.

Let me touch on recoil as its really one of the factors involved in choosing(weight of a rifle can be a factor,but to me the difference between and 8 pound and 9 pound rifle can be lived with by adapting your pack weight) the caliber to be decided on. Recoil is not really an issue if you really think and adapt to recoil. The fundamentals of the shot are the same regardless of recoil. If you follow those and arrive at a "surprise" break you are fine. Normally only a shot or two at game and on those you don't even feel it go off anyway. I do lots of practice and match shooting year round with a 223 and 22 LR. I have no problem picking up my 300 or larger and killing with one shot. The way I mentally came to accept the recoil issue is this--Hit or miss I"m gonna get thumped. Might as well hit. Had to shoot a deer left handed with my 300 mag years ago. Could only manage a light grip on the rifle and had only a 125 yard neck to shoot at. Luckily the Zeiss has a rubber ring on it and all I got was a bruise above my eye and a headache AND a dead deer. So the recoil issue is mostly in your head.

Take these issues into consideration and you'll decide whats best. IF you load, IMHO there may be no better compromise than the 300 winny. You can always tone it down, but then thump it back up as needed.

In the meantime whatever you choose, grab some good bullets. Like Accubond type, partition and or X bullets. Between those you can do almost anything(and the selection is one reason my next go to rifle may well be a lighweight 7x08)

Its a tough decision-- but it may only fuel your fire to build more rifles. Not a bad thing really...

Jeff

My unexpert thinking has gone this way lately: If you really want to be able to shoot, you need to shoot a lot. To shoot a lot, you need a suitable rifle. Some calibers are easier to shoot a lot than others. The .300 Winchester Magnum won't be that caliber for most of us. You can shoot any rifle a lot if you reload. But I think that, if you are going to buy something for the purpose, the .308 is ideal as a basic marksmanship/hunting tool right now-- lots of cheap ammo, easy and cheap to load for, very accurate, capable of hitting at any sane distance, reasonable power, reasonable recoil, adequate trajectory, lots of rifle choices (brands, barrel lenghts, stock configurations, etc.)

That's for shooting a lot and learning to shoot, and probably much of your big game hunting as well. But, you still might feel the need for more specialized rifles if you plan to hunt a wide range of game. Especially since you hunt big stuff up there in AK. The question is, do you feel that you can you do it all with a .308 and a .375 H&H? My feeling is that you really need a .308 or something like it (.30-06 is the only thing close in my opinion) if you want to be all you can be with a rifle. For you, is this custom rifle going to be your primary rifle (I'd choose .308, maybe .30-06), or a specialized one (.300 Win Mag or anything else that does what you want)?

If you want to split hairs it can go on forever. Me, I would just get the .300 Win. Mag. and go hunting. With the right bullet it will kill anything that needs killing at any range you should be shooting unless we start talking dangerous game and even then it would do most of it.

A-MEN



Again, AMEN



Those two, will do it all.



Lots of boring, unmarketable, common sense in these statements.

BMT