I have to agree, size shot at indoor ranges will basically be traveling as one big ball of lead. More important to me is to shoot 2 3/4 shells. That way if I am nervous and short stroke the 870, there is less likely hood of a jam than if I was shooting 3 inch shells.
For use inside a house what more does one need than a one ounce target load of 7�s? Like DaddyRat said, at less than 20 feet the shot charge is still traveling as a fist-sized cloud of lead. Less recoil than a magnum buckshot load also means less recovery time for a second shot if needed too. Outside the house, and things change.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
Ditto on #7 1/2; that's my home defense and practice load. Outside (largely at the lease) and as you indicated, things do change. In that case it's 2 3/4" of #3 buckshot. Good point regarding the use of 2 3/4" as opposed to 3", gnoahhh. I figure I'm good for anything I might encounter, unless a T-Rex shows up.
I understand the issues with overpenetrations but........... 00 buck will put em' down, 7's not so much. In regards to juries, I'm lucky. I live in arkansas. While we have our share of yankee and california immigrants most people here are pretty level headed when it comes to crime and the issue of self-defence.
For serious social purposes, it is wise to choose an effective round, made for the purpose. You cannot shoot someone "kindly." It is highly unlikely that the jury's decision will come down to what you used. Whether your actions were reasonable and in accordance with your state laws WILL be the issue. Shoot only if you or another person is in immediate danger of serious bodily injury or death. Shoot to stop the aggressor's illegal, life threatening actions.
That's all well and good, and this debate will undoubtedly stretch into the next century. I'll stick with a target load of 7�'s indoors because the aforementioned reasons of faster follow-up shots, if necessary, allowed for by less recoil. Attenuated muzzle blast provided by a magnum in close quarters is not to be overlooked also.
So what if none of my shot completely penetrates an attacker's torso? He is going to be one sick sunuvabitch if not altogether down for the count. In addition, if the gun/load will be employed by a household member who is not fond of guns and shooting, instilling a level of proficiency in them through practice with the defense gun will be worlds easier with "mild" target loads. Use of those same loads by that person in a self defense situation will have a much more telling effect than a magnum load delivered by someone shaking from fright and squeezing their eyes shut in anticipation of the recoil and muzzle blast.
In short, in a tense do-or-die situation I'll go with controlability over extra force. Better to hit him square in the face or chest with a target load than to come close with a magnum turkey or buckshot load.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
I would agree that this debate could go ad infintum and shot size is not a one size fits all.
When it comes to "controllablity", I feel confident with my turkey loads as you do with 7 1/2 target loads. They both should take us to the same place.
at short range i do not believe the shot size matters as to its lethality. a bigger concern is over penatration and what is going to stop it.
Same for me. I have my 870 loaded with 2 3/4", 1 1/8oz. 6's for inside the house. Upclose they are all I need and lose most of their momentum after going through two pieces of drywall to be quite a bit safer than 00.
Nothing is fool proof for a sufficiently talented fool !!
"Keep your booger hook off the bang switch until your sights are on the target".
And on the litigation front. "shot him with a target or hunting load" does sound better that "shot him with his Tactical home/self defense load". One sounds like you grabbed what you had, while the other sounds like you "planned" to kill someone.
Although, the last thing on my mind with a Bogey in my house is outside opinion or what looks better. If all else fails and it takes one of the Samburu spears from the downstairs wall to stop the threat, so be it. Time for "how it looks" when they are incapacitated and the "authorities" arrive. If it is the coroner or the ambulance makes no difference as long as my family is all in one piece. If I felt it was necessary for escalated force than there should be no doubt that it was the case to a jury. I am not one to shoot without overwhelming justification.
Nothing is fool proof for a sufficiently talented fool !!
"Keep your booger hook off the bang switch until your sights are on the target".
7-1/2's at point blank range in a house is going to get the job done. I agree no need for hot loads you want light recoil and fast follow up if needed. A lot of guys think (in their minds anyways) that they are tough guys and can handle any recoil. The difference is handling it and being in control of it. Ok you can handle it but you sure are not in control of it. Second is what if it isn't you behind the gun? What if it is the wife or kids? Personally I want the easiest gun for anyone in the house to be able to handle. Cause if I am home I am more then likely going to use the baseball bat and if I feel I need a gun the 1911 will be at my side. Of course I live in a non Castle law state. So I have to call 911 and while on the phone with them yell at the intruder that the police are on their way, I have a gun and if you come any closer I will have to shoot you, I said don't move! Bang. Well he wouldn't listen and he was right there a step away from my wife so I had to shoot. All of which is recorded on the 911 call so my azz is covered.
Personally, I would not use any pellet size smaller than #6's and #4's would be better. Inside a home it doesn't have to be a magnum load, a good field load of 1 1/8 ounces would get it done.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
I lost track of where we equated "buckshot" with "magnum" but all the "tactical" 00 buck I have is 2 3/4" shells and doesn't strike me as having more of a kick than target loads.
Rufus, you've convinced me. Buckshot is better, but it looks like heavy bird shot wouldn't do a bad guy any good if that's all you had. Thanks.
I certainly wouldn't want to get shot in the face with 7 1/2s or 8s. Some human targets are going to quit when you shoot them with anything. But if you run into the guy who's not going to stop unless vital body functions shut down, giving him a really hideous flesh wound (as opposed to punching holes through him) might not be enough to accomplish what you are trying to do. There's certainly a whole bunch of variables that no one can predict ahead of time, but I honestly see no advantages to bird shot to offset the obvious disadvantages.
1 to 1-1/8oz 7-1/2's @ 1200fps or faster @ 15ft will equal big nasty hole in body or head. Try it out on a big thick phone book either soaked in water or dry.
1 to 1-1/8oz 7-1/2's @ 1200fps or faster @ 15ft will equal big nasty hole in body or head. Try it out on a big thick phone book either soaked in water or dry.
Or a two watermelons back to back. The damage is dramatic. One shot to the center of mass inside ten feet, even with "soft target loads" should put the stops on anyone NOT cranked up on drugs. Two shots for them, and that is not taking into account a neck shot. Remember, at close range the shot load acts almost like a solid. I would not want to be shot by even a 7/8 ounce of lead going a pedestrian 1000 fps, or in bullet terms (for a 12ga.) @ a 70 caliber, 383 grain bullet, at 1000-1200 feet per second. Not too far off of a 45/70 with a 300 grain bullet. Who wants to be infront of that?
Nothing is fool proof for a sufficiently talented fool !!
"Keep your booger hook off the bang switch until your sights are on the target".
That's an interesting photo, but that doesn't look like a shot pattern from a full choke at 15 feet. Usually that is one single hole of gauge diameter.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
As someone else mentioned, send a load of 9s into a watermelon at close range and then think about if it would be effective. Even a centered .410 at close range is going to end things quickly.
Debating shot size for home defense? Waste of time. They all work.
Actual "BB" size shot would be great inside the home. That's big enough for really good penetration without being too big. In fact, aren't there some home defense specific loads out now in low recoil 2 3/4" BB-size shot?
As an aside, I use 3" magnum tungsten BB's for coyote hunting and they flat turn a coyote upside down to 50-ish yards with a good choke combo. I think they kill coyotes better than the larger plated lead No. Four Buck. Different kind of load, but experimenting with penetration testing and then actual hunting gave me a new found respect for those hard little tungsten BB's. Inside the house a low recoil load of BB's would be hard to beat.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
I was a member of a jury on a murder trial several years ago. The victim was shot once in the chest with a #7 1/2 12 gauge load. The State's ballistic expert said that the range was approximately 7 feet. The shot entered the right side of the victim's rib cage and traveled across the chest cavity, destroying both lungs and the heart. The victim died instantly. There was no exit wound. The entrance wound appeared to be little more than the diameter of the barrel. If you are talking about inside the house distances, I don't think you have to worry about birdshot not getting the job done, and it would be less likely to pass through the attacker and possibly injure anyone else that may be in the house at the time.
Correct. Amazing that many here underestimate the destructive power of a shotgun at close range.
At 10-20 feet an ounce of 7.5s will knock-and probably kill-the biggest Canadian Buck that ever lived on his azz pretty much right now. Proper location, being a given.
At that distance, one ounce of shot-the equivalent of 437grains-going 1200fps is pretty much one ball of solid shot.
Correct. Amazing that many here underestimate the destructive power of a shotgun at close range.
At 10-20 feet an ounce of 7.5s will knock-and probably kill-the biggest Canadian Buck that ever lived on his azz pretty much right now. Proper location, being a given.
At that distance, one ounce of shot-the equivalent of 437grains-going 1200fps is pretty much one ball of solid shot.
Until it strikes an object and begins to break up into separate small individual pellets. That swarm of small shot does not have the penetration properties as one ball of solid shot (slug). I won't argue against 7.5's at 20 feet, but a slightly larger shot like #4's would better assure correct depth of and more complete penetration. Remember, the attacker might be drugged or drunk, could be quite large in size, and possibly wearing heavy clothing. At least for me personally a 1 1/8th ounce field load of #4's would be more comforting without over doing it inside the house. Personally, I like the specially formulated low recoil BB- size shot even better.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
A good buddy of mine is a retired NY State Correctional Officer that was a firearm instructor for the guards for 20 years, and a hell of a pistol shot BTW. I just called him and he said for the homeowner a 12 gauge with 7 1/2 shot is the best as buckshot will obviously penetrate the sheetrock and cause more problems. For the average homwoner he says a pistol is out of the question for home defense as even trained gun owner will miss at 7 feet in a fight, due to obvious nerves. The crazy thing he said was a sicko with a knife within that seven feet, against a man with a holstered gun will win every time. Another story that can probably be googled is the perp who took about 15 9mm rounds and still faught, was on PCBs and felt nothing. Shoot straight if you must and I hope none of us ever have to. Again this is one correctional officers opinion and not meant to disparage anybodys opinion, I just found it interesting.
Maybe... no mention of the shot size used. That is important information for this discussion. Did I miss them say it was a #7.5 trap load? Couldn't that have been anything up to and including 00 Buck?
I've shot quite a few vest too. A local department had some Level IIA vest in the basement of their building that got soaked after the basement flooded. My department absorbed their jurisdiction when they had some internal "difficulties." As we were sorting through records and such in that basement I found the vest. As a firearms and tactics instructor I grabbed onto them. I took them outside and let them air and thoroughly dry out. A few weeks later I did some test shooting through them and some other outdated and replaced vest my department had with various handgun, rifle, and shotgun loads. My department vest were probably Level III and I cannot remember the range I shot them at. Some of those vest allowed any and everything to pass through. Some did their job and even low recoil 00 Buck loads failed to penetrate some of the vest. It seems water exposure and direct sunlight/heat has an adverse affect on the construction materials. That is why most have an expiration date after which they are supposed to be replaced. I've worked a few shotgun shootings too and I will say this - the shotgun is a very decisive and terminal weapon used within its useful range. You are welcome to load #7.5's if that makes you feel warm and fuzzy. Me? I'll opt for a larger shot size everytime.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Maybe some day I'll figure out why some people insist on selecting a self-defense projectile based on its inability to penetrate a sheet of drywall, while at the same time assuming it will obliterate an assailant.
Oh wait, never mind. I forgot I ran my first 25 in trap with 9's and LM choke. Someone gave me those things and I had no idea what to do with them so I figured shoot some trap with em.
Let's think about this. From the 16 yard line, you were braking a 45yard edge on target with 9s. Like I said, don't underestimate the power of a wad of shot.
PS: Mogc is also correct. 00Buck is an impressive hammer.
at short range i do not believe the shot size matters as to its lethality. a bigger concern is over penatration and what is going to stop it.
absolutely right, though not in the context you mean. Penetration is important. Birdshot tends to make a large surface wound, with little penetration. If your intent is to wound and maim, then use those #7s. If you want to stop your attacker, use 00 Buck. My intent is to use my attacker's body to stop the buck shot.
Maybe some day I'll figure out why some people insist on selecting a self-defense projectile based on its inability to penetrate a sheet of drywall, while at the same time assuming it will obliterate an assailant.
Or maybe I won't.
Well said...
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
What reality? If one were really searching for "reality" there would be a need to keep an open mind and investigate ALL the available information. Ignoring other test such as those from the box o' truth and several others on the 'net (all indicate a decided lack of penetration from shot sizes smaller than #4's for this purpose) don't lend credibility of a true search for "reality." The first video had no information of the load used to shoot the vest and no information about the vest itself. Ignoring those important details doesn't make them go away. Mark Twain once said of statistics that many people use them as the drunk does the lamp post. For simple support and not true illumination. That seems to be the case here too.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Yea Jim Wilson and the Gunsight people don't know.... Then again they ain't guessing.
I watched the clip and I'm not sure what global conclusions can be made.
It looks like they showed that the birdshot penetrated the first layer of drywall. But beyond that they didn't really compare the three loads.
And the whole point is about penetrating people, who aren't made of drywall.
So to my way of thinking, which could possibly be slow on the uptake, they showed that those who choose birdshot because it will kill bad folks, but not go through a wall and hurt their family, are now possibly proven half wrong, with the other half still up in the air.
You are not missing anything. Obviously the birdshot did not compare to the other two with regards to total penetration and never will.
My entire point-which some seem to miss-is that a shotgun up close is a formidable weapon. At 20 feet the damage it causes will not just be a large surface wound, but a major destruction of tissue.
I've finished off two road hit Deer with a 12ga using 8s or 7.5s at a distance of probably around 10feet. One tore through the entire neck and the other smashed completely through the spine. It was decisive, quick and left little doubt as to the close range power of a shotgun with any reasonable load. Their skin isn't made of dry wall either. However, it is a little tougher than mine.
If others want to use 00buck fine. It will work. However, 8s, 7.5s, 6s, etc at close range are not to be taken lightly.
I guess what I'd like to see is some yard by yard penetration results for birdshot, from contact distance to the point where any effectiveness tails off. Bottom line, nobody (that I know of) hunts deer with birdshot, so I think it's safe to assume that there's agreement that there's a limitation at some point, no matter how big a fan you are of birdshot at across the room distances.
I've seen too many reports of "surface damage only" or tests suggesting inadequate penetration to be comfortable guessing what that distance is, or counting on being within those bounds when push comes to shoot. Add to that the complexity of different ammo and chokes and its just too much of an unknown for me to risk.
The parameters have been pretty much been set at an average room distance of 20feet-7yards-and there is plenty room for error. Notice in the video after going through the first wall-and slowing down from doing so-the second partition still had birdshot holes.
Without hitting that wall and slowing down, the shot would have traveled 40feet or almost 14yards. You think a shotgun at 14yards-and under-is not a decisive force, no matter what size shot is used? (Remember we can take game at an honest 40yards with birdshot.) Think again, but use what you want.
There are more than a few accounts of hunting accidents with birdshot in the 14yard range that have killed people. Those who survive almost universally state they were knocked on their ass when hit at 30yards-90feet-and under.
The last sentence is based on them taking the majority of the shot in a 1 to 1 1/8ounce load.
One of the guys I shoot clays with is the chief of radiology at a very large urban hospital. They see more gunshot victims than most war zones. He told me flat out that a shotgun blast to the torso at room distance is not survivable. When asked if it mattered what gauge or load he said that in over 20 years he had never seen a survivor regardless of gauge or load.
RufusG what is the biggest room in your home? I would think that will give you the distance at which it needs to be able to get the job done at.
I've got a couple places in the house with an open line of sight over 60 or 70 feet, although most likely shots would be shorter. If I get to count the garage, it would be longer. But I also don't assume I wouldn't have to step outside under some scenario.
I've decided I'm going to do some controlled "short range" patterning when it cools down a bit. I've only patterned at say 20-40 yards before.
Couple your pattern sessions with some penetration testing comparisons of various shot sizes. Wait a minute, that's been done, though some don't want to see that.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
RufusG what is the biggest room in your home? I would think that will give you the distance at which it needs to be able to get the job done at.
I've got a couple places in the house with an open line of sight over 60 or 70 feet, although most likely shots would be shorter. If I get to count the garage, it would be longer. But I also don't assume I wouldn't have to step outside under some scenario.
I've decided I'm going to do some controlled "short range" patterning when it cools down a bit. I've only patterned at say 20-40 yards before.
We don't have a "Castle Law" here in CT so if I or anyone else were to shoot a perp at 60-70 feet or outside the house we're going to jail.
RufusG what is the biggest room in your home? I would think that will give you the distance at which it needs to be able to get the job done at.
I've got a couple places in the house with an open line of sight over 60 or 70 feet, although most likely shots would be shorter. If I get to count the garage, it would be longer. But I also don't assume I wouldn't have to step outside under some scenario.
I've decided I'm going to do some controlled "short range" patterning when it cools down a bit. I've only patterned at say 20-40 yards before.
We don't have a "Castle Law" here in CT so if I or anyone else were to shoot a perp at 60-70 feet or outside the house we're going to jail.
So... if a bad guy is shooting at you from 70 feet, you're not in danger? It would seem you would be perfectly justified to return fire in self defense in such a situation.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Couple your pattern sessions with some penetration testing comparisons of various shot sizes. Wait a minute, that's been done, though some don't want to see that.
Throw a load of 7.5s into the side of your car door at 7-10 yards and tell me what you see with regards to pattern and penetration.
Couple your pattern sessions with some penetration testing comparisons of various shot sizes. Wait a minute, that's been done, though some don't want to see that.
Throw a load of 7.5s into the side of your car door at 7-10 yards and tell me what you see with regards to pattern and penetration.
Sure, just promise to pay to have the scratches buffed out and I'll do it.
Couple your pattern sessions with some penetration testing comparisons of various shot sizes. Wait a minute, that's been done, though some don't want to see that.
Throw a load of 7.5s into the side of your car door at 7-10 yards and tell me what you see with regards to pattern and penetration.
Sure, just promise to pay to have the scratches buffed out and I'll do it.
One of the guys I shoot clays with is the chief of radiology at a very large urban hospital. They see more gunshot victims than most war zones. He told me flat out that a shotgun blast to the torso at room distance is not survivable. When asked if it mattered what gauge or load he said that in over 20 years he had never seen a survivor regardless of gauge or load.
I'm guessing that he ain't guessing all that much.
Yep. The key words "not survivable" not based on pattern or penetration tests but rather on a 20+ year history working at a level 1 trauma center.
I could not agree with you more. Many people take the shotgun out and break clays with it, or shoot buckshot or a turkey load at a target and call it good. I have owned a shotgun since I was 10 years old and I am quite a bit older than that now.
I have no Grady Hospital trauma experience (inside GA joke), but then I grew up with Shotguns, at close range 20 feet or so with #9 shot into the center of your chest from even a .410 your dead end of discussion, there is no hospital that can fix you. I have no doubt of this. I have shot the wall boards as well (as well as chopping down a few pine trees as a youth with 12 gauge bird-shot). I think I will stick with 2 3/4 inch BB shot if everyone does not mind.
I have used #2s in the 22" choked A5 for a lot of years. Regular 2 3/4" high brass loads. Little side story. Got a late evening invitation for a dawn turkey hunt after the stores had closed (back in the day when everyone closed by 6pm and went home.) I had no turkey loads in the house. I hastily loaded 5 rounds with steel BBs (airgun fodder) and went hunting the next am. The turkey came off the roost on a preserve, crossed the boundary then a small stream and headed for the host's sorgum allum field. At about 25 yds the BBs mostly totally penetrated a bird that dressed (oven ready sans stuffing) 22 pounds. Impressed me. I suspect the high speed steel shot of equal size would be lethal at close range. jack
"Do not blame Caesar, blame the people...who have...rejoiced in their loss of freedom....Blame the people who hail him when he speaks of the 'new, wonderful, good, society'...to mean ,..living fatly at the expense of the industrious." Cicero
Just finished reading about this subject in the 1991 Guns & Ammo annual I dug up. The author chose #4 Buck in his 12 gauge after a big test. Forty one .24 caliber lead balls was a nice compromise between over penetration and DRT.
There's a guy at my rod and gun club whose friend woke up with 2 guys in his house. He grabbed his shotgun and walked out his bedroom door. One of the guys took a shot at him with a pistol and he returned the favor with birdshot. The guys got out the door before he was willing to follow, but there was blood on the floor, and he was sure he got a good shot on the guy.
One, I had a lawyer tell me once that I'd be much easier to defend for shooting a guy with my bird gun and bird shot than I would if I shot a guy with a SPAS 12 and a tactical defense buckshot load. He said that the prosecution would be sure to mention to the jury "Riot Gun" and "Personal Defense" or "Police" or "Military Grade" loads. I should stay away from shells called Shredders or Splattermatics or whatever... The jury would be led to believe I was some nut holed up waiting to blast someone.
What concerns me is if my friend's guy shot an intruder that got a round off in his direction, and he made it out the door, he was still on his feet and could have shot at him some more. The guy had a pistol! If he did pattern his gun on the guy with birdshot, I'd like something more. I wonder if something like our old 1 1/2 #4 lead goose rounds would have done better. It'd blow the snot and feathers off any goose that flew too close.
"I didn't get the sophisticated gene in this family. I started the sophisticated gene in this family." Willie Robertson
The reality of this is that your friend like most always think they made a good shot. If the Perp was not caught then there is no way to know where the perp was shot and just how good or bad that shot was.
There's a guy at my rod and gun club whose friend woke up with 2 guys in his house. He grabbed his shotgun and walked out his bedroom door. One of the guys took a shot at him with a pistol and he returned the favor with birdshot. The guys got out the door before he was willing to follow, but there was blood on the floor, and he was sure he got a good shot on the guy.
One, I had a lawyer tell me once that I'd be much easier to defend for shooting a guy with my bird gun and bird shot than I would if I shot a guy with a SPAS 12 and a tactical defense buckshot load. He said that the prosecution would be sure to mention to the jury "Riot Gun" and "Personal Defense" or "Police" or "Military Grade" loads. I should stay away from shells called Shredders or Splattermatics or whatever... The jury would be led to believe I was some nut holed up waiting to blast someone.
What concerns me is if my friend's guy shot an intruder that got a round off in his direction, and he made it out the door, he was still on his feet and could have shot at him some more. The guy had a pistol! If he did pattern his gun on the guy with birdshot, I'd like something more. I wonder if something like our old 1 1/2 #4 lead goose rounds would have done better. It'd blow the snot and feathers off any goose that flew too close.
The same garbage gets bandied about when talk of shooting someone with a handload from a defensive firearm is mentioned. It is always some lawyer talk this or that. Yet that seldom seems to be the case. Massad Ayoob has done a lot of research in this area and the last I'd read of this in his writings is that he can't document any cases of a Jury hanging someone on this fact. Same for a home defense specific load or firearm. The bottom line is that if the shooting is justified it matters little what weapon or load you used to defend yourself from deadly force. Lethal is lethal - it has to be a "good shoot" or it isn't gonna matter.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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