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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
You like that one eh Terry? 
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
OH YEAH, that had me ROTFLMAO.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,777 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,777 Likes: 6 |
..............
The absolute minimum caliber I would even consider as capable of saving my life is .40 S&W. .45 ACP is preferred. At the risk of heresy, a .357 Mag would be far from my preferred tactical handgun.
..........
Stay Safe,
R
After reading your posts, this one and those where you seemed firmly entrenched against the M60.......why do you dislike the .357? Is it the platform or the round? The .357 is more than capable. The 8 shot N-frames currently made by S&W are simple and effective tools. The M60 holds only 5 rounds which is a limiting factor but especially in the 3 inch model, the .357 is a proven performer. The .38+P short barrel loads are also effective. The M60 not my first choice if I know that I would have to use it (but then according to the rules we wouldn't leave home, and I agree), but in some cases it may be the only viable choice for carry. I'll choose a cylinder of 5 that I am well practiced with vs nothing at all.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,913 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,913 Likes: 47 |
..............
The absolute minimum caliber I would even consider as capable of saving my life is .40 S&W. .45 ACP is preferred. At the risk of heresy, a .357 Mag would be far from my preferred tactical handgun.
..........
Stay Safe,
R
After reading your posts, this one and those where you seemed firmly entrenched against the M60.......why do you dislike the .357? Is it the platform or the round? The .357 is more than capable. The 8 shot N-frames currently made by S&W are simple and effective tools. The M60 holds only 5 rounds which is a limiting factor but especially in the 3 inch model, the .357 is a proven performer. The .38+P short barrel loads are also effective. The M60 not my first choice if I know that I would have to use it (but then according to the rules we wouldn't leave home, and I agree), but in some cases it may be the only viable choice for carry. I'll choose a cylinder of 5 that I am well practiced with vs nothing at all. The .357 Magnum is very effective in stopping a fight. It's main drawbacks are blast, flash, and recoil. The .45 ACP is about equal to it in stopping power, but it surpasses it on the other three factors.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101 |
Hi JCMCUBIC & The Real Hawkeye,
I have carried an "L" Frame 4" .357 Mag revolver. It was a big, heavy handgun. I couldn't imagine trying to conceal one.
I'm good with the opinion that you guys hold. There are a lot of people who believe the .357 Mag is the way to go. But I'm not one of 'em. It's that deal about differing life experiences.
BTW, were I to carry a .357 Mag, it would have to be a short-barreled gun, say 2.5". In such a weapon, .357 Mag velocity would be severely compromised, velocity allegedly creating its status. Therefore, I would use 158 grain .38 Special +P SWC ammo. There are a few tactical reasons for my choice. .38 Special +P will provide sufficient penetration, penetration being causal of incapacitation. The reduced muzzle blast and reduced recoil will lessen the likelihood of losing sight picture.
I will concede that a 4 to 6 inch .357 Mag revolver is a damned good wilderness survival weapon. With shot cartridges one could take grouse. With .38 Special wad cutters, one could easily take small game. With a heavy .357 Mag round and a careful shot, one could take deer-size game. With heavy Buffalo Bore type rounds, it would be a decent gun for black bear defense, but I would not want to take such a risk.
But this is just me. I know that the mileage you guys get will vary from mine.
Take care & stay safe,
R
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6 |
Concealing an N-frame S&W is not that hard to do, If I don't have my 1911 then I have a 41 or 44 N-frame
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101 |
jwp475,
Excellent point. For YOU, concealing a big handgun is not that hard to do. But for me, it is.
Take care,
R
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101 |
jmp475,
BTW, your, "A 9mm may expand but a 45 sure ain't gona shrink" is an excellent guide when selecting a handgun for self-defense.
Take care,
R
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6 |
jwp475,
Excellent point. For YOU, concealing a big handgun is not that hard to do. But for me, it is.
Take care,
R Agreeded
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,913 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,913 Likes: 47 |
Hi JCMCUBIC & The Real Hawkeye,
I have carried an "L" Frame 4" .357 Mag revolver. It was a big, heavy handgun. I couldn't imagine trying to conceal one.
I'm good with the opinion that you guys hold. There are a lot of people who believe the .357 Mag is the way to go. But I'm not one of 'em. It's that deal about differing life experiences.
BTW, were I to carry a .357 Mag, it would have to be a short-barreled gun, say 2.5". In such a weapon, .357 Mag velocity would be severely compromised, velocity allegedly creating its status. Therefore, I would use 158 grain .38 Special +P SWC ammo. There are a few tactical reasons for my choice. .38 Special +P will provide sufficient penetration, penetration being causal of incapacitation. The reduced muzzle blast and reduced recoil will lessen the likelihood of losing sight picture.
I will concede that a 4 to 6 inch .357 Mag revolver is a damned good wilderness survival weapon. With shot cartridges one could take grouse. With .38 Special wad cutters, one could easily take small game. With a heavy .357 Mag round and a careful shot, one could take deer-size game. With heavy Buffalo Bore type rounds, it would be a decent gun for black bear defense, but I would not want to take such a risk.
But this is just me. I know that the mileage you guys get will vary from mine.
Take care & stay safe,
R I agree with all of the above, particularly as it regards +p .38 Special in a shorter barreled .357 Magnum revolver.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,777 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,777 Likes: 6 |
Hi JCMCUBIC & The Real Hawkeye,
I have carried an "L" Frame 4" .357 Mag revolver. It was a big, heavy handgun. I couldn't imagine trying to conceal one.
I'm good with the opinion that you guys hold. There are a lot of people who believe the .357 Mag is the way to go. But I'm not one of 'em. It's that deal about differing life experiences.
BTW, were I to carry a .357 Mag, it would have to be a short-barreled gun, say 2.5". In such a weapon, .357 Mag velocity would be severely compromised, velocity allegedly creating its status. Therefore, I would use 158 grain .38 Special +P SWC ammo. There are a few tactical reasons for my choice. .38 Special +P will provide sufficient penetration, penetration being causal of incapacitation. The reduced muzzle blast and reduced recoil will lessen the likelihood of losing sight picture.
I will concede that a 4 to 6 inch .357 Mag revolver is a damned good wilderness survival weapon. With shot cartridges one could take grouse. With .38 Special wad cutters, one could easily take small game. With a heavy .357 Mag round and a careful shot, one could take deer-size game. With heavy Buffalo Bore type rounds, it would be a decent gun for black bear defense, but I would not want to take such a risk.
But this is just me. I know that the mileage you guys get will vary from mine.
Take care & stay safe,
R Thanks for the response. Good info. I may have been following a different line of thought as concealed carry wasn't my consideration for the N-frame Smiths. Carry on the farm and home defense were more along my lines of thought. The newer titanium frame N-frames keep the weight down (~30oz's) to allow them to be comfortable to carry and still heavy enough that they aren't uncomfortable to shoot with the .357. They are still large but a good pancake holster allows them to cary easily...but not concealed (for me). Agree on the velocity loss with shorter barrels and with the recommendation on .38+P short barrel loads, although I prefer the 125gr loads. The reduced recoil from them also helps with the smaller J-frame such as the M60. The ability to conceal is where the J-frame shines. It would not be my first choice for an encounter, but in my daily life I rarely go anywhere where I would expect an encounter so it is often my first choice for carry. From 30 feet I shoot it as well as any other handgun although recovery is not as quick. Past 40 feet I do not shoot it as well as longer barreled handguns. JCM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 12,022
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 12,022 |
Training is of paramount importance if you want to get the edge in a deadly force encounter. Places like Thunder Ranch, and Col. Cooper's school are great places to train, but not everyone can afford that kind of monetary and time commitments. Look around. There are usually several, affordable alternatives within a reasonable driving distance.
As important as training, if not more important is mindset. If you're forced into a deadly force encounter you must revert to the proper mindset. I think the proper mindset can be boiled down into two things:
1. Be completely sure you are going to win, and live.
2. Tell yourself, "they can possibly hurt me, but, they can NOT kill me." Know this with every fiber of your being. Live it, go over scenarios in your mind, much like athletes visualizing their upcoming performance. This is not ideal for training, but it is better than nothing.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101 |
Magnumdood,
You have a pretty good grasp of gunfighting. There are a few things I would have added, but you're good.
BTW, viewing a autopsy or two ought to convince the naive of the importance of avoidance. Death is in fact absolute!
Good luck,
R
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101 |
Hi JCM,
Thank you.
This is an excellent forum with lots of knowledgeable shooters who have caused me to think. And that's always a good thing, except I've been accused of not engaging in that activity as often as I ought.
I can easily understand why you prefer big revolvers. Were I on a farm I'd probably carry a .357 Mag due to its versatility.
Stay safe,
R
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,471 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,471 Likes: 2 |
If you could have only one what would it be? My choice would be my Glock 23 with two barrel 40 S&W and the 357 Sig barrel. Nothing beats the Glock in my opinion. I pack a 4-5/8" barreled Ruger super blackhawk by choice. It doesn't shoot real fast ... but it doesn't miss real fast either and I don't have to shoot anything twice. Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Here be dragons ...
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
Funny you say that because I always thought one of these in 4 3/4" with a super trigger job might be one of the best personal defense weapons out there. http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRevolvers/SingleActionArmy.aspx
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,913 Likes: 47
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,913 Likes: 47 |
Only problem is safely decocking it.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101 |
T O M,
Always use what's right for you. But please indulge my asking you how you well you shoot your Ruger at a moving target while you're moving. What's your tactical plan should you find yourself without option other than engaging multiple bad guys with a single action revolver that requires an appointment to reload?
Best of luck to you, T O M
R
Last edited by Raisuli; 07/27/11.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
A well tuned single action with practice can be shot faster than a automatic pistol. And I'm not referring to "fanning" the action. I've seen it done a number of times and with incredible accuracy.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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