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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6 |
A well tuned single action with practice can be shot faster than a automatic pistol. And I'm not referring to "fanning" the action. I've seen it done a number of times and with incredible accuracy. How fast one can shoot is only a part of a self defense situation another part is how well do you hot and how fast can you reload and the reload is where the single action lags W...A....Y.... behind
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
Only problem is safely decocking it. Why is that a problem, did it all the time in CAS and out & about on the daughters place.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101 |
A well tuned single action with practice can be shot faster than a automatic pistol. And I'm not referring to "fanning" the action. I've seen it done a number of times and with incredible accuracy. derby dude, I am extremely skeptical of your claim, but for the sake of knowledge I'll indulge you. It is a logical fallacy to try to disprove a rule by citing a rare exception. The rule remains while the exception is an anomaly to it. In others words it's beyond incredulous to even remotely intimate to those who hold knowledge of tactics far beyond gun magazine rhetoric to even remotely attempt to pass off stupidity that might cause another to die because you have an ridiculous agenda. To accept your claim one would have to find the answer to why professional law enforcement officers and militaries of the world do not carry single action revolvers. In fact, find the answer to this question & get back to us with it. Buena Suerte (You need a lot of it.), R
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
Many Cowboy action shooters can and do shoot faster than semi-auto shooters and accurately. But, they practice a lot. We had a CAS vs LE match a couple years ago and the CAS shooters took the honors over the LE. And LE was using their duty handguns, rifles and shotguns. But then as I said before, it comes down to practice, LOTS of practice plus shooting CAS scenarios designed for the cowboy guns, not IDPA.
I can accurately outshoot myself with a SAA vs. 1911.......... BUT, big BUT, once the SAA is dry I NEED a second LOADED SAA to finish the same sting as a 1911.
I would not choose a SAA over a 1911 as regular SD carry but would not feel unarmed if it was all I had.
And if you want to see fast and accurate with a SAA google Bob Munden videos, he is a wonder, also one in a million.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
Here ya go, enjoy: Munden videos
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,101 |
T LEE,
What are you trying to convey? Are you conveying that Munden can shoot a single action revolver with greatly reduced loads that are so inferior no one would consider them for self defense faster than a well trained law enforcement officer can tactically fire a 1911A1 with LE ammo?
You gotta know what you're comparing and whether the comparison has validity before reaching a conclusion. There is no doubt in my mind that derby dude saw something and came to a conclusion someone else ordained for him.
jus' sayin'...
R
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
Munden shoots factory ammo for starters, and as I stated he is one in a million. And yes, up to 5 shots he can, then he is out of the fight. Just a sidebar for a bit of entertainment.
Bill Jordan could do as well with factory .357 ammo of they day (which was loaded hotter than it is today) as he could with his exhibition wax bullet loads also, saw him do it with my very own eyes in person.
Now when we are talking the average LEO or CCW person, the semi-auto is hands down the best choice if they are familiar with it.
There is no Holy Grail in SD firearms, it has to be one YOU can master and stay proficient with. It is not the tool, it is the craftsman.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,965 Likes: 16
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,965 Likes: 16 |
Many Cowboy action shooters can and do shoot faster than semi-auto shooters and accurately. But, they practice a lot. We had a CAS vs LE match a couple years ago and the CAS shooters took the honors over the LE. And LE was using their duty handguns, rifles and shotguns. But then as I said before, it comes down to practice, LOTS of practice plus shooting CAS scenarios designed for the cowboy guns, not IDPA.
I can accurately outshoot myself with a SAA vs. 1911.......... BUT, big BUT, once the SAA is dry I NEED a second LOADED SAA to finish the same sting as a 1911.
I would not choose a SAA over a 1911 as regular SD carry but would not feel unarmed if it was all I had.
And if you want to see fast and accurate with a SAA google Bob Munden videos, he is a wonder, also one in a million. This makes perfect sense about this match. Being that most LE officer's are not hobbyist shooters and do not shoot anywhere near as much as a CAS shooter does. Now if you took a group of A class, Master class and Grand Master class IPSC shooters who also happened to be LE to the same match, since they are also hobbyist shooters too.... I will admit in the past that I have pulled the " I am just a cop and I don't shoot much" when showing up at a small local range that I have never shot at when traveling. Listening to the snickers behind my back as I have them explain how the IPSC thingy game is played... Using a plain jane Glock makes it even funnier.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
This makes perfect sense about this match. Being that most LE officer's are not hobbyist shooters and do not shoot anywhere near as much as a CAS shooter does. Exactly why we (the CAS shooters) won. Anybody that shoots in the modern 3 gun matches would be a whole 'nuther ball game.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
I'll tell you how it's done and any body can do it if they want to spend the time and money practicing.
You put the SA in your shooting hand, with the off hand over the shooting hand in a two hand hold. As the SA recoils, with the off hand thumb, you pull back the hammer. As the SA returns to battery and you acquire the target you shoot. Repeat sequence as fast as you can. This is very dangerous and should be practiced with an empty SA until one acquires the skill.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
The SA has many attributes for a personal defense weapon. It can be reloaded with rounds still in the cylinder. With practice, the SA is fairly easy to reload on the run. In fact, a skilled SA shooter is never with an empty gun unless he has run out of ammo. Try that with DA revolver or our vaunted 1911.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6 |
A semi auto can be reloaded fster and reloaded with a round stil in the chamber ready to fire
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
A well tuned single action with practice can be shot faster than a automatic pistol. And I'm not referring to "fanning" the action. I've seen it done a number of times and with incredible accuracy. How fast one can shoot is only a part of a self defense situation another part is how well do you hot and how fast can you reload and the reload is where the single action lags W...A....Y.... behind I still want one of those #3 Top Break replicas in .44 Russian, it could be reloaded much faster. would I choose it for SD, over a good autoloader? NO!
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,896
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,896 |
NICE duds!! A good wardrobe will get ya style points any day!!....................But probably won't help your score
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
Terry you the "Dude". A very stylish shootist.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,460
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,460 |
For carry, Kahr PM9. For home defense or carry in cooler weather, S&W M&P 9mm. For pocket or ankle carry, Taurus M85 in 38 Spl.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,913 Likes: 49
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,913 Likes: 49 |
Only problem is safely decocking it. Why is that a problem, did it all the time in CAS and out & about on the daughters place. It's not a problem in those contexts. It could be a problem if you live in an apartment building, though. PS I've owned them since the 1980s, and I've never had an accidental discharge, but then again not only do I not keep them for practical defense (though they could certainly be employed that way), but neither have I ever had a need to use a firearm of any sort in that capacity. Naturally, someone very familiar with then, who's very careful, can probably get away with it just fine, but it's still not as safe in this respect as a more modern design.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
Whatever. It is just common sense to control an exposed hammer on any firearm, single action double action or hammered rifle.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
Hi Cheyenne, I live in an extremely safe community where violent crime is nonexistent. In fact, I have never felt threatened in the community in which I live. The last murder of which I�m aware that happened here was over 25 years ago. Therefore, I never carry a gun while I�m in my community. A Model 60 IS NOT a tactical handgun. I won�t delve too deeply into tactical responses, but suffice it to write that were I in an area in which I might encounter gangbangers, I know they never caper alone. That means I would expect at least two bad guys. So I always try avoiding going into gangbangers� turf. Cheyenne, please allow my recommending your visiting a library and perusing research on victimology. Avoiding becoming a victim is not difficult if one uses her/his head. But then again, I have an enviable advantage of knowledge gained in a career in which I had to interact with serious violent offenders. Tattoos to you might be insignificant. Tattoos to me might well mean that it�s time for me to leave. And there are other indicators that warn me it�s time for me to leave. Here�s a good link for you: http://faculty.ncwc.edu/mstevens/300/300lecturenote01.htmA Model 60 is a neck and above handgun, which means very close distance. If you�re not successful in immediately incapacitating the CNS, expect return fire. Keeping in mind that dying is not a desirable outcome, I never want to be that close to anyone who wants to kill me. And if I have distance between bad guys and me, my first response would be to run away; hence Raisuli�s Primary Rule of Gunfighting: don�t get in one. Now, should I find myself unable to avoid having to go into LA or other areas where threats are reality, I would take either my 1911A1 with LE ammo or my Sig P-229 with 13 rounds of LE ammo. But Raisuli�s Primary Rule of Gunfighting would still be controlling. In other words, I would avoid becoming a victim. I have not lost situational awareness. Finally, it is very unrealistic, especially considering tactical responses, to think a good guy is going to encounter a bad guy who�ll allow himself to be a stationary target. And it is not conducive to longevity for good guys to allow themselves to become stationary targets. A wise tactical response, assuming Raisuli�s Primary Rule of Gunfighting is not an option, is to shoot while backing away and shoot while running to a barrier or out of the area. I know damned well that if I die I�ll lose regardless of what happens to the bad guy. I will avoid to the best of my ability trading my life for a bad guy�s life. That is a sucker�s trade. BTW, with a lot of practice a committed survivor can become very proficient at tactical retreats; that is, shooting while backing away. Cheyenne, if you�re good with a Model 60, I�m good. You gotta do what�s right for you. Take care, Raisuli Great "tactical" mindset.... assuming safety, and going about unarmed.
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