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Joined: Sep 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
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Why carry a .22LR, .25ACP, or .32ACP, when a .380 is available for the same size and weight? Agreed. Except... why carry a 380 when you can carry a 9mm Kahr in the same size and weight (PM9).
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,335
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2005
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I worked in and co-managed a retail gunshop/Police Supply store (this was before the word TACTICAL was ever used in gunshops!), and at that time, we were one of the top sellers of Lorcin 25 ACP handguns (NOTE: this was seriously against my wishes!). We would sold them by the CASE, and for $56.95 with tax, you got the gun and one box of W-W White box ammo, FMJ or HP, your choice, subject to stock on hand.
Most chose the FMJ, as it was believed to feed more reliably, and int hat time, I will give a few GREAT instances of guns that I sold, and wound up having to appear as a material witness for the state due to thier use, so here is what I know the police record to have shown:
25 ACP-FMJ Mouse gun sold to a cute little African-American lady that also gave me her phone number (not my type) gave me a ling sh-piel about needing it for personal protection, and that I could come over in the EVENING and show her how to use it. She left, went home, loaded the gun int he car, walked in, and shot her boyfriend 6 times from about 10-15 ft away, as he was getting ready for his 2nd shift job. He was hit in the chest area and side and once on the back as he leaned over, grabbed a bat, and proceeded to beat her into a coma.
25 ACP-FMJ Mous gun was purchased by a kinda rednecky, but still very hot-looking blonde who would have nothing to do with my offers for personal protection training offers. I guess it was just as well, 'cause she went to her boyfriend's house, and snuck in the back, approaching his bedroom where he was laid up sleeping (literally) with some local underage girl. He lied to her, so she stuck the gun to his mouth and pulled the trigger. Gun fired, but jammed. The underage girl jumped up screaming, and the shooter proceeded to clear the gun, and fire three more shots at the underage girl, she ran out of the room/house. Boyfriend dove out the open window, but it was on the second story, and he broke both arms and shoulder blades on the landing. The bullet removed all upper & lower teeth and cracked the mandible opposite side. He was patched up and the shooter went to prison for attempted murder,a dn he did to for statuatory.
So don't use a 25...use a 22! (stay away from crazy wimmen too)
Last edited by iambrb; 07/21/11.
Psalm 19:14-May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, Lord, my Rock and my Redeemer.
_
Humble servant of Jesus Christ. Living His plan and praying to show it in name, word, body, and light.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
Just picked this up today, carried one in a wallet holster for a lot of years and just could not resist. Original cardboard box & papers. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/TLEEF/GUNSMITHING/HSD001.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/TLEEF/GUNSMITHING/HSD002.jpg)
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,815
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,815 |
Q: Does anyone make a good 22 lr conversion kit for a 25 acp auto pistol? ...
You know, for practice shooting?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I also made 8 upper chest hits with my little Beretta 25 auto at 15 yards ...
I would have made even more but my assailant ran away before I could change magazines.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,471
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,471 |
Smith 2213 loaded with CCI stingers.
Dink That was a good little pistol. Actually, that whole series of pistols. I was sad when S&W discontinued them. Especially when they replaced them with the pot-metal special (which actually isn't a bad gun; just no where near as nice as the 22 series). I bought one unfired in the "bag" a year or two ago for my wife. My only complaint is the only ammo it will run %100 with is stingers or velicitors. Dink
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
A P238 is probably in my future, but... Dad had a Baby Browning at one point, but I'm not sure what ever became of it. When he showed it to me I asked him when we could shoot it, and he looked startled and said, "oh no, I might shoot off a fingertip with it, I'm not shooting it!"  The BB and the Colt Vest Pockets are beautifully made, but even the Hornady manual said that handloading the .25 ACP is "...not particularly rewarding..."
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,939 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,939 Likes: 1 |
If (God Forbid), you were to carry one; which one would you carry and why? Also, what would be your choice of platform?
I�ve always had a fascination with the little threaded barrel Beretta 21�s. I had a 21 the year it came out in .25 ACP (don�t ask), and I have to say, that little gun shot FAR better than it had any right to. I could EASILY make upper chest hits at 15 yards, and more often than not, hit an upper chest at 25 yards. Downright decent little pistol; for a Mousegun. I would opt for the 22 LR, because it penetrates better. Probable a S&W
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,939 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,939 Likes: 1 |
S&W 317, loaded with CCI Velocitor. I picked up a 317 as a practice aid for my 431, but it didn�t shoot to point of aim with most loads I had, and the action was horrendous, not anywhere close to my 431; ended up selling it. If I were packing a .22lr for self defense, I think my choice in ammo would be the CCI SGB (Small Game Bullet) which is a swaged flat point; looks like a mini-LBT bullet. I�ve drilled LARGE holes in the heads of squirrels with that bullet. Like most flat points, the wound is larger than the caliber; pretty impressive actually. Still, the .22lr doesn�t give me a warm & fuzzy for self defense, but it beats being unarmed. A great bullet shape for sure
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,596 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,596 Likes: 1 |
Why carry a .22LR, .25ACP, or .32ACP, when a .380 is available for the same size and weight? When prices of ammo spiked and availability of ammo went down a couple of years ago, I started shooting a lot of .22 LR, which upped my confidence level in hit potential. None of them give me a confidence level at the stopping power level. Plus, I can find .22 LR out in the sticks with less trouble than any of the others.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 556
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 556 |
I think it's almost a toss up, with the .25 the almost clear cut winner, based on it's having been designed to function in small, almost micro, auto loaders.
From the standpoint of practicality the .22 Long Rifle is a better choice (maybe) because it will be easier/cheaper to shoot often enough to get good with it. At various times I've had a matching pair of .22s/.380s, the most recent pair being PPK/Ss.
I got to be a pretty decent shot with the .380 because for every round that went down it's barrel, probably twenty went thru the .22. Eventually I sold the .380 but kept the .22 as a plinker.
In the real world my experience runs somewhat counter to that of iambrb. My partner and I were working "dogs" (slang for bike gangs) and were in a bar in Antelope Valley counting colors when one of the bikers walked up to the bartender (a guy built like Haystack Calhoon; he probably weighted 250) pressed a crappy little Raven Arms .25 against Haystack's chest and capped off one round.
Haystack dropped to the floor like a sack of rocks dropped down a well, the guy tossed the piece on the floor, and casually headed out the door. I don't think the effect would have been much different with a .45, but I don't think I could say the same about a .22, although that's just pure speculation.
The bottom line is this: no one can predict how an individual will react to being shot. And a person can't be shot if the bullet misses hitting him.
All things being equal, if you can afford to get accurate with a .25, then that is the single best choice. If you can't afford to feed a .25, then the .22 is your best option if you are relying on a single pistol. If it were me, I'd by two guns, one in .22 for practice and plinkin', and a .25 for carying.
Life is hard. It's even harder when you're stupid. --John Wayne
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Joined: Jan 2011
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 556 |
I would opt for the 22 LR, because it penetrates better. Does it? Comparing like for like (ie: both fired from a 2-inch barrel) it would seem to me that the .25 could have superior penetration characteristics as in all likelihood it may have greater velocity. Anyone out there have the definitive numbers for a .22 vs. a .25 out of a 2-inch barrel?
Last edited by Old_Writer; 07/21/11.
Life is hard. It's even harder when you're stupid. --John Wayne
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,939 Likes: 1 |
I worked in and co-managed a retail gunshop/Police Supply store (this was before the word TACTICAL was ever used in gunshops!), and at that time, we were one of the top sellers of Lorcin 25 ACP handguns (NOTE: this was seriously against my wishes!). We would sold them by the CASE, and for $56.95 with tax, you got the gun and one box of W-W White box ammo, FMJ or HP, your choice, subject to stock on hand.
Most chose the FMJ, as it was believed to feed more reliably, and int hat time, I will give a few GREAT instances of guns that I sold, and wound up having to appear as a material witness for the state due to thier use, so here is what I know the police record to have shown:
25 ACP-FMJ Mouse gun sold to a cute little African-American lady that also gave me her phone number (not my type) gave me a ling sh-piel about needing it for personal protection, and that I could come over in the EVENING and show her how to use it. She left, went home, loaded the gun int he car, walked in, and shot her boyfriend 6 times from about 10-15 ft away, as he was getting ready for his 2nd shift job. He was hit in the chest area and side and once on the back as he leaned over, grabbed a bat, and proceeded to beat her into a coma.
25 ACP-FMJ Mous gun was purchased by a kinda rednecky, but still very hot-looking blonde who would have nothing to do with my offers for personal protection training offers. I guess it was just as well, 'cause she went to her boyfriend's house, and snuck in the back, approaching his bedroom where he was laid up sleeping (literally) with some local underage girl. He lied to her, so she stuck the gun to his mouth and pulled the trigger. Gun fired, but jammed. The underage girl jumped up screaming, and the shooter proceeded to clear the gun, and fire three more shots at the underage girl, she ran out of the room/house. Boyfriend dove out the open window, but it was on the second story, and he broke both arms and shoulder blades on the landing. The bullet removed all upper & lower teeth and cracked the mandible opposite side. He was patched up and the shooter went to prison for attempted murder,a dn he did to for statuatory.
So don't use a 25...use a 22! (stay away from crazy wimmen too) I know a guy that reached for a 25 and the gun went off and the bullet hit the shoulder bone and bounced back and landed in his hand
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,460
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,460 |
I would go with .22 LR. Maybe in Stinger or some other HP loading.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,718
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,718 |
Just in case anyone's interested, there's a website dedicated these little guns. Mouse Guns
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 177
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 177 |
Definitive numbers for the two cartridges?\
Definitive? Don't know about definitive but some years ago, I chrono'd some Winchester .25 ACP from a Bernardelli clone Baby Browning along with some CCI SV .22LR from a S&W 317 with a two inch barrel
The .25 won the energy prize by about 10% . The velocity was right where the factory said that it should be - 760 fps for the 50 grain FMJ. The .22 SV rounds had a higher velocity but also a lighter bullet. They chrono'd at 800+ fps. I did not chrono any HV or HyperV .22s. There will be some gain there but as those are optimized for rifle barrel, I would not expect too much (and some use lighter bullets. The 32 grain Stinger would have to be going about 200 fps faster than the .25 in order to have similar energy. The heavier 40 grain Minimag loads need 850 fps the catch the 50 grain .25 bullet.). Did not do any penetration tests.
Last edited by PeteD; 07/22/11.
To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting.
Karl Wallenda
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,596 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,596 Likes: 1 |
Anybody got chrono data on the .22 LR CCI SGB out of a short barrel? If not, I'll get some and do it, and maybe do some penetration tests against the Velocitor.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,667
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,667 |
Just picked this up today, carried one in a wallet holster for a lot of years and just could not resist. Original cardboard box & papers. Because the CCI .22 Magnum shot cartridge is SO effective, back in the day, I remember that gun was a status symbol among construction workers who worked in snake country. Man, seemed like EVERYONE had one. Went to a logging operation outside of Georgetown CA once when I was a kid, and when snakes came up during lunch time, there were 6 guys having lunch and NO CHIT, 4 of them pulled out High Standard's in .22 mag. Those guys would rather have that HS than a Rolex. That HS is a DAMN good little derringer...really one of the best derringers ever made. .22 magnum is a round that's far better for defense than it has a right to be; typically giving downright decent penetration even out of itty-bitty barrels. So when the HS came out, it was a VERY popular gun. Still, for me, it would only be carried front pocket if I were in snake country (and I'm often in snake country), and I can carry my J frame just as easy. The HS could be carried as a 3rd gun in a back pockt wallet though...better than a sharp stick, that's for sure.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
I bought this one out of nostalgia more than anything else. I have far better carry guns these days and the wife will probably take it out to the barn with her for snakes more than anything else.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,736 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,736 Likes: 1 |
Just picked this up today, carried one in a wallet holster for a lot of years and just could not resist. Original cardboard box & papers. Got one just like that, for the same reason.....Nostalgia. Also had one in 22LR for a while. Haven't seen many of those. Thought I'd carry it because as Kevin said the 22Mag should be much better for defense. Truth is I've never carried it because I've got too many others that my confidence is higher in.
NRA LIFE MEMBER
GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS
ESPECIALLY THE SNIPERS!
"Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,314 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,314 Likes: 1 |
never have and never will own a 25 ACP. I do own several 22's. I can relate 4 25 ACP shootings, two to the head where one deflected off the skull at a shallow angle and the other penetrated because it was placed to the ear canal, one shot in the gut, $35K out of pocket with good insurance for an accident with a 25 call pistol pointed at the gut ejecting a shell, duffus still lives, next same area but severed an artery, died on operating table. You would be better off plunking them with a couple of them .410 shells out of a Judge... 
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