Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Alaska 300 win mag grizzly and moose?

I'm am primarly a bow hunter so am throwing out this question

Have a moose tag in BC this Oct and the guide has a grizzly tag available. I said hell yeh I'll take it, also picking up at least one wolf tag too

Taking up my bow but also bringing my 300 win mag. I know the 300 is more than enough for moose as I have shot 2 with my bow

Is it justifiable to pick-up a 338 or 375 HH for the grizzly bear or is a 300 win mag sufficient? I know the grizzly and moose run smaller up in N BC than Alaska. Thought I would post this here as you guys seem to have the most real world experience.

Any loads, bullet selection 300 mag/ 338 for big bear?

Thanks

Yes and Yes!

That justifies the acquisition if that's what you want, but you won't be undergunned with the 300WM.

Good bullet in the right place.

Ribka,

as you re going in BC i suggest you to try on our Canada section.

there is more than one fellow there that i hunted moose and grizzly.

if you tell there where you re going pretty sure you ll get top notch advices.

of course here too.

ps : there is some nice�moose dandy in N BC and some BC grizzly can be compare side by side with AK peninsula brown bear.

for the caliber everything will work and take the one you can handle as you re a bowhunter you know a little about bullet or arrow placment

My Brother has been using a 300 Weatherby for about 25 years on Moose and Grizzlies. Hasn't let him down yet. 200gr Noslers are his 1st choice, but he's killed just as many or more with 180's.

My grizzly fell to a .30-06 like he was was hit by the hammer of Thor
I used Federal factory 180gr TSX

That sounds like a great hunt. If I was in your shoes, it would be an easy choice. I have a .300 Win Mag that light and accurate. I would be working on the right loads for that hunt, with the possiblilty of a bear in mind. Now, if I was going after the big bears, I'd have to take my .375, but it's a lot heavier than the .300 Win Mag. With the right loads the Win Mag is an effective and adaptable round.

DF

+1 on the .300Weatherby! 200gr AB's--84gr of H-1000 at 3,000fps gets their attention right away.
G

When in doubt use a partition. My 300 win mag loves the 200 gr. partition. I'm pretty sure a bear wouldn't like it though. I've even got some 220 gr. partitions stashed away for that special hunt

No worries with the .300 Win.
Prepare in other ways, your rifle is more than enough.

I know I've told you this before, but very cool pic.

Ribka you don't need no stinking gun! You have your bow.

Can't wait to see pictures. Good luck and be safe.

Use a true premium bullet in the 180gr range and there will be absolutely no problem getting full penetration at any angle... Nosler Partitions do not qualify as true premiums...

Accubombs, then?

Shhhhh. Don't tell that to my 10 footer.

Thats funny Salmonella, got a Bud that has killed three kamchatka giants with his 300 Win. and NP's.

Gunner

Thanks for the advice. Of course any opportunity to purchase a new 338 or 375 could be justified but the wife is giving me a hard time already on money spent on the trip

Would love to shoot one with a bow but this is probably my one and only chance for a grizzly so will probably be primarily carrying the rifle. Will be doing a good deal of hunting from horseback and guide advised that most shot opportunities run from 50-200 yds.

Will start working up loads this weekend and start shooting

I guess I was lucky to escape with my life when using an inadequate .300 Magnum and non-premium 200 gr. Nosler Partition bullets...whew! He must have had a heart attack when he heard the noise, I guess.

NPT's may not be the latest, slickest bullet on the market, but the standard by which others are judged. I would think at least 180's in the .300 Win Mag with any of the NAB, IB, E-Tip, SSII, TSX, TTSX types. I would go with the one my gun liked best. With monometals, of course, it's the critical bullet length more than weight.

Never count the NPT's out. They're like the Energizer Bunny, keeping on keeping on, year after year, decade after decade, a true classic. And a bullet doesn't obtain that status over time without a reason. It's got to be pretty darn good...!

DF

No one said they are a bad bullet... Huge difference though between the performance of the NPT and a true premium bullet. Lots of stuff gets shot and dies from non-premium bullets.

But if one is paying for a premium bullet I would think they would have some incentive to make sure they actually get one. The second hole is simply not reliably produced with the NPT... and a huge percentage of NPT shooters wait for the chance to poke one behind the shoulder.

With a real premium the wait is not there and the bloodshot meat is hugely reduced. I have seen bears shot with the NPT and it works, but it would be a long way from my first choice.
art

+1, Sika deer

Great pictures wildhobbybobby! Yes a 300 mag will work, and plenty of grizz have been taken since 1948 with a NPT. However I would take the bullet that shoots the best in your gun and has the best performance. If that is the NPT then so be it.

Premium bullets are the bomb!





Okay, so that doesn't quite 'say it' well. In fairness, I can't think of anyone other than Speer with their Grand Slams who calls their bullets "premium", so we can give the guys at Cerebus/Barnes a pass.



And just so no one thinks I'm taking a swing at Cerebus, here's a Cerebus/Remington that turned out well, if bullet remainders matter. (And it did make two holes; was recovered beyond the dead animal, unlike the two previous.)

The use of a bullet has a lot more to do with what ends up premium in the results or not. There would be a lot of fault on the user of a 200 Partition in a 300 mag if those results didn't turn out well. There are no grizzlies or moose that can't be dispatched quite handily by any reasonably competent person so equipped.

Personally I consider the Nosler partition a premium bullet and, when considering performance on all game, still one of the best of the best.
This bear was one of the largest bodied bruins that any of my clients have taken in thirty years. A single 200 gr Nosler Partition from the hunters 300 mag. stopped it within 30 yards.



It is hanging on a twelve foot ladder

Now that's a bear!!!!

My bear pictured above is a long way from being as big as the one that Phil shows, but it was a 14 1/2 year old male brown bear taken on Admiralty Island in SE Alaska in 1987. The hide honestly squared 8 1/2 feet and the skull was 24 1/2 ".

That was before I knew about camera angles that can make a mouse look like a moose, so he looks smaller in the pictures than he really was. I have no idea about his weight...it was a spring hunt and he was a very husky bear according to the guide, the late Karl Lane of Juneau. He saw lots of bears in his career, and said that mine was bigger than most.

The point of this is that the first 200 gr. Partition at about 130 yards penetrated completely broadside and then headed for the Kamchatka Peninsula in Russia, as far as I know. The bear turned to run and I hit him again as he quartered away. That bullet broke his right hind leg and then penetrated the paunch and liver and was found under the hide just forward of the diaphragm after about 3 1/2 FEET of penetration. He did make it about 50 yards after the first shot, but after all, he was a grizzly bear, you know.

It looked like a hand grenade had detonated in the lungs from the first shot. The second bullet weighed 135 grains and had a classic mushroom shape with lead still remaining in the front core.

I like Partitions because they give deep penetration while still doing great damage along the way. Bloodshot meat (and other stuff) is exactly what you want on a grizzly.

I thought your bear looked to be at least 8 1/2'

Just uploaded a picture of the hide. I was 5' 10" tall and weighed about 315 at the time of the photo:

Unlike so many of the newer premium bullets, the Nosler Partition has a long and distinguished track record. Year ago the late Finn Aagaard was visiting us during bear season and one of our clients, who was hunting with another of my guides, wounded a bear that got away. I went to help track it and the bear had gone well over a mile before we lost it.
The client was shooting a 338 with 250 Partitions and had shot the bear while it was standing broadside in the open at 70 yards. He claimed he had hit "right on the shoulder". Finn's comment to him was that " if you had hit him on the shoulder with a Partition he would not have run a mile "
That has been my experience as well. Stick a Partition in the right place and you will have a trophy to take home.

Or one could comment on the effectiveness of the 338 on bears. I know of some instances where that combo, and similar, have not worked well. I'm of the opinion, as I know you are too, that effectiveness of very adequate tools has considerable to do with their user.

If only that had been a 210 TSX.......

Phil
You had to go and waste a trump card while I was still getting tugs on the chain I was pulling!

I have still recovered too many to like them "for the money", but I have never said they were a bad bullet.
art

That is exactly my point. There is nothing at all wrong with the 338 with good 250 gr bullets. In fact one could argue that with it's velocity and high SD that it is one of the very best. The problem is being able to find a hunter who can place their bullets correctly. As tough as they are, bears are not bullet proof. I have watched clients completely miss bears, gut shoot them and even had a couple of them who even hit them in the hind foot and yet they all claimed to have hit them perfectly.
These guys are also usually the ones who brag about their shooting and insist that I never shoot.


Sorry Art, I wasn't paying attention. I'll let you work on them longer next time.

I know a few Kodiak guides who hate the TSX and other Barnes X bullets as they have seen bears get away after being shot with them and the hunter claims he "hit them perfectly"

I suppose that shot placement had nothing to do with the lost animals, right?

It doesn't matter what bullet you use or how big of caliber you shoot - shot placement has EVERYTHING to do with whether or not you kill an animal.

I haven't shot any grizzlies with the Nosler Partition, though did use the even "lousier" AccuBond with great results.

However, I have shot a number of elk with the 200-grain Partition--and an elk is about the size of an inland grizzly. The cartridges ranged from the .30-06 to the .300 Weatherby. Only one bullet stayed inside any of the elk, from a "raking shot" at 375 yards that happened to clip one side of the pelvis before ending up in the front of the chest.

One 6-point bull was shot at 75 yards quartering toward me, right in the big shoulder joint. The bullet went through the joint and the important plumbing behind it, then exited toward the rear of the rib cage.

DAMN, what a bear !

Phil,

If only you had stayed anonymous on this board I never would have known you were not one and the same as a good friend (and guide) who passed away awhile back. The experiences you related here seem remarkably similar. One can always wish that the experience of some of the dearly departed might still speak to us via this medium, but alas, in this case anyway, the bubble is burst....


....kind of funny how a bear can make grown men, even competent, experienced hunters, get quaky, caliber carried notwithstanding

This one was killed by a 200 gr Nosler out of a 300 Weatherby.



This one was killed by a 210 Nosler out of a 338 WM



This one was killed by a 180 gr Nosler out of 300 Weatherby




All 3 of those are Genuine 8' + Tundra Grizzlies. The bottom 2 are All-time B&C Book bears, and the top one just misses. Noslers of the various flavors work fine, assuming proper bullet placement.

Few more killed by Noslers of various flavors...







And this one was killed with a Savage 99 in 308Win. I gave the gun to my Nephew and he kills Grizzlies with it. Good thing he doesn't visit this site! This sow did require a few shots though. Bro told me she's the meanest Bear he's encountered.

I used that exact combo to kill a 7 1/2 foot interior Grizz in the Talkeetnas.

It took several hits and slid down the frozen slope.



No bullet trumps good shooting.

Love that hide photo Phil!
What did that toad square?

Here is my Kodiak.
10ft 1 square.



Always love your input Phil.
Few folks can discuss the big bears of Alaska with the level of knowledge that you posess.

Well that settles the Partition argument. Didn't even get to the popcorn!

Pard loves that bullet (XLC version) in his 340 Wby.

Might just be the difference that .002" makes over the .338 though.

Just to prove that the first liar doesn't have a chance - here is another one you can attribute to a 30 caliber Partition. After a client had wounded it, with a 180 partiton from his 300 Wby, I had to wrinkle it out of the pucker brush with my 30-06 using 220 Partitions.

That's a big bear Phil. Wow!

I almost took my JC Higgins and 150 TSX bullets up to Nome for my last hunt but figured stunts and foolishness weren't in order. Based upon the penetration I've seen with the TSX its not the worse choice available.

Mine began life as a J.C. Higgens and worked well until I wore out the barrel.
A familiar 30-06 with good bullets is seldom a bad choice.

Now that's some good bullet work!

Dober

One thing to keep in mind with NPTs is they are not all built the same... A 200gr 30 caliber is quite a bit thicker-walled than the 180... and in the 375 the differences are very big.

Laffin'.

Thanks for the input. Only five pages? After research and reading your posts think I will be running these down the barrel of my 300 mag:

http://www.remington.com/product-families/ammunition/centerfire-families/core-lokt.aspx

Killed my first Grizzly with a 180 gr Core-Lokt out of a 300 Weatherby. One shot, dead bear. Not what I would recommend, but not saying it wouldn't work either because it did for me.

Lol... it just cracked me up to see Art do his "Partitions aren't a premium" song and dance, but then pretend it was a joke when Mr. Shoemaker opined otherwise.

Carry on. I'm done laffin'.

The truth is, there are very few bad bullets out there. Unfortunately, just as with cars, trucks, make-up, and guns, the people who mis-use them don't fall into nearly as small a category in their negligence.

Phil, how many bears have you killed with a 30/06?

Not many, as my job is finding and helping other folks shoot them, and for the past twenty-five years I have primarily carried my 458 for peninsula brown bears. But if you include grizzlies I have probably killed 7 or 8 with my 30-06.

Taking on a new species is always justification for a new rifle. Just ask my wife. Yes, the 6mm Rem was great for whitetail, but one needs the reach of a 257 Weatherby for mule deer. I'd suggest you get a 240 Weatherby. I'd still use the 300 on the bear and moose, but a 240 would just be nice to have.

Phil, would you happen to have a field photo of that monster?

At one time I was possesed by giant brown bears.
Still one of the world's greatest game animals in my opinion.

11 foot plus?

The mind simply reels.

Here is the only field photo I have of that bear and I have to make a correction as that one was not the one killed with the 300 Wby and a 180 Partition. This one was taken with a 375 Ruger. Believe it or not the one with the Wby was a couple hundred pounds larger but was taken earlier and those photos are on slides, rather than digital. I do now have the ability to digitize my slides and plan on doing so this winter

Great!!!! I have about a hundred cubic feet of slides, want to digitzie them too?

What a thankless job that is! Good luck and I am cetain you have a ton of stuff that is seriously worth making available!

Thanks Phil.
I look forward to seeing your photos.
Most only dream of what you live daily.

FWIW, here's what a 300gr NP travelling at about 2,520 fps 100 yds from the muzzle of a .375 Wby does:



Here's the story.

That being said, and it is just my preference, when my velocities get too much above 3,000 fps, I prefer something like the TTSX or TSX. I have never had any failure with a NP, but when a cartridge produces NASA-like velocities, I like to use a mono-metal bullet just in case.

I wish Federal still factory loaded the 200gr NP in the "HE" (High Energy) loading in 300 WM. It pushed a 200gr NP at about the same speed as most factory loads push a 180gr, and it shot well out of my 700 BDL.

Anybody else remember this O'Connor account? He encountered a grizzly while hunting for another species, and sat down and put the crosshairs of his 270 on the bear's shoulder. He wrote something like "If I had pressed the trigger, that wicked little 130 grain Speer would have smashed it's shoulder..." but he didn't shoot.
Currently, a 130 Speer isn't considered by most to be a decent bullet for under nourished deer.

Fred

I know all about how many rifles like a .270 or smaller will kill a brown bear, especially if you have a great presentation, like O'Connor apparently did in that scenario. But, sometimes, you don't. And something like a .375 H&H or even a .338 Win will give you a lot better performance on a difficult shot on a big animal at a tough angle, for example on a big bear quartering away. And you might not be able to get a better presentation on that animal. And it might be the only ONE you see during the hunting trip of a lilfetime.

If I was an Alaska resident, and successful bear hunting was getting fairly routine, I could see going a little bit undergunned. But, if you're from elsewhere, and spend a zillion dollars on, and countless hours preparing for, what's posisbly going to be the hunt of a lifetime, I would recommend bringing something a little more potent than a .30-cal. That's just my opinion, and not to imply that some .30-cal or smaller options will not work much of the time. I got the .375 Wby to hunt with and am glad I did. I didn't want to be thinking about what .300 WM bullet would do on a difficult angle. It just made me less apprehensive having a hard-hitter with me.

I can't see a 30 cal with a quality bullet as being under gunned. Sorry but they will get the job done with aplomb. A big bore revolver with a proper flat point hard cast has more than enouigh penetration for any angle shot.

DTDT

Marinehawk
The problem with the above 30 calibers, as I gather from reading stuff from guys that guide for bears year in and year out, is that MANY people people that show up with them FLINCH with them, resulting in some poorly placed shots.

Fred

I know. And maybe it's a legitimate concern for a small number of people, but I personally think it's over-emphasized. I used to flinch 25 years ago when I bought and shot my first 300 Win Mag. A few months later, I had cured it by a lot of practice and focus. 18-months ago, when I first shot my .375 Wby, I did flinch a bit. 260-rounds later: zero finch.

IMO, if a person is going to hunt something like brown bears, he should prepare himself mentally to not to be unnerved too much by something like a charging brown bear. If someone can and should do that, he likely also can learn to not flinch when merely facing the recoil of something like a .338 or .375. It just takes practice and focus. There may be exceptions to this, but I think their over-stated. Also, while a person may flinch while bench shooting, I may be wrong, but I simply cannot imagine a person flinching when shooting a prized game animal, especially something like a brown bear.

Something like 360gr FN HC .45 caliber bullet traveling at 1,500fps probably will prenetrate more into a big animal than most 300 WM loadings. But the .454 Casull FN bullet also won't shoot as easily out past 50 yards or so (unless you're really good with a revolver), and certainly won't do as well at taking 200-300yd shots, etc ... It's a trade off.

The .300 mags are very versitile rifles, and can handle brown bear. I can't find it right now, but some of the experienced guides on Alaksa Outdoors Forums said that they had seen a bunch of brownies taken by .30 cals, and they worked, but unlike larger caliber, they had never seen one taken with just one single .30-cal shot--follow-ups were required. I'm not saying that it hasn't happened, but these guides sad they are more ready to take a near-simultaneous shot on a brown bear when a client is shooting at one with a .30 cal.

Maybe they are wrong, but that is their experience and there must be a reason why people make and sometimes use calibers larger than .30".

O'Connor killed a few Grizzlies with his .270 Winchester. He said he liked to shoot them at about 200 yards in case things got hairy he had a buffer zone.

But, if he had something bigger, would he really have worried about taking a fairly-long 150yd shot?

Were I to dice it up with a Griz or a Brown bear, I would worry more about where I hit them than if my 300 ultra was up to the job.

Sure are alot of big bears being killed by bullets that are considered "non premium bullets"!

as far as I am concerned, the only people who can properly answer these questions are the ones who do this for a living and have seen dozens and dozens of kills. I personally would think a 300 with good bullet like barnes or A-Frame would be plenty, but i tend to agree with others that if paying the price I would make damn sure I took the right medicine by talking with guides and reading like crazy ...

300 win mag is a great choice. Load it up with premium 200 grainers or some 220 grainers.

Your .300 Win Mag will do the job, I would defintely use a good controlled expansion premium bullet. Personally I am a believer in Nosler Partitions. When using my .300 I choose the 200 grn version. It has been a great performer on everything I shot in Alaska from Red Fox to Buffalo.

Here is mine...

Shot it with a 330 Dakota using a 250 gr Swift A frame

Squared and honest 9' 10"
Skull was 27 13/16"



I have seen 2 other brown bears killed in my life..
One was with a 300 rem ultra- 200 gr. noslers
One with 300 win. using 180 barnes x

The Guide I used frequently takes hunters for Brown Bears with bow and arrow.. I agree with Phil, a 30.06 with right bullet placement with kill any bear on the planet.

I believe that you want more gun when things go wrong/bad.. meaning you failed to put the bullet where you intended.. that to me is where the larger caliber and premium bullet can really help. That is not an all encompassing statement, however this bear is proof that the larger caliber helped me harvest this bear. BTW-- this was a large bear for the area in was shot in. We were just south of the Alaska pass in the Talkeetna's.

Nice bear!!! Where is Alaska Pass, i've never heard of it before.

No need o buy a bigger gun. I killed a big grizzly with a 200 grain Partition out of a big 30. DRT.

What I meant to say is Alaska range..

NP were premium bullets wayyy before the ammo marketing depts had ANY idea what a premium bullet was!!!

Oh and you did it with a blue rifle. I thot stainless was a REQUIREMENT. i'm stunned.

Nice bear!!

Wow!

Troll!

[quote=MarineHawk][quote=moosemike][quote=Royce]Anybody else remember this O'Connor account? He encountered a grizzly while hunting for another species, and sat down and put the crosshairs of his 270 on the bear's shoulder. He wrote something like "If I had pressed the trigger, that wicked little 130 grain Speer would have smashed it's shoulder..." but he didn't shoot.
Currently, a 130 Speer isn't considered by most to be a decent bullet for under nourished deer."

O'Conner was an ass. Anyone who would deliberately ass shoot an animal to slow it down enough so that he could get up on it to finish it does not have my respect. I learned more on my first and solo sheep hunt than I did from his subsequently purchased " Sheep and Sheep Hunting"