Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa 270 Grain TSX - still needs work

Bob: Layne wrote in his book he'd never seen buffalo react so much to the 416 Weatherby @ 2700 plus. I'll try and find the quote and post it.

Colorado:
The SD calculation is only functional for a bullet before it impacts the skin/hide/fur of the animal or for a solid.

Once the diameter changes upon impact the SD will change drastically. So the SD calculation is only of any value at all when the bullet is unchanged and in flight. The SD of an SAF bullet unfired will be completely different when it has a 5/8" or greater mushroom diameter. The SD number will be reduced by half or more. Yet the TSX SD because the mushroom is smaller, or maybe with the petals lost will stay bore diameter.

The concept of SD and penetration is only a functional measure for a solid. As soon as the bullet changes diameter so does the SD value. It's always been perplexing to me that so many people will base all penetration decisions on the SD and they are discussing soft points?

The only point at which SD is used is for Penetration, yet that is the exact point at which the value changes ( drastically) with a soft point!

Thanks Jorg...like to see that.

Never shot a buff but seems like the petals shearing off should not be an issue like JJ and others say...I have seen recovered Barnes from African game,eland and kudu,and it seems at high velocity it happens,but not much difference from a Partition(say)and the reduced diameter should help penetration,(except you can't destroy the rear part of a Barnes like JJ says) which I should think would be "good" on buffalo....

Barnes users may have seen this but I have noticed that under enough velocity,even the rear half will show signs of some further expansion after the petals are blown.Looks like a win/win to me.

In his book, Rifles For Africa, Gregor Woods reports the findings of a study conducted over a 5 year period by former US Public Health Service doctor, Ed Ashby, and Dr. John Hilliard using Barnes X bullets and only live-game animals testing for terminal ballistics.

According to the text, they found the optimum velocity for a 375 with a 270 grain Barnes to be 2400 fps MV because this caused the petals to peel back to 90 degrees from the shank and no further which setting up the bullet's scything motion as opposed to a higher velocity which caused the petals to fold back to a more mushroom-like shape and setting up a pushing rather than a cutting action through the tissue and thus inhibiting performance Pg 122).

What is not mentioned in text, though I assume is distances were typical bushveld shooting distances out to say a couple hundred yards.

The saying "sometimes stuff happens" (maybe it's not stuff )
In regards to a bullet failure causing lost game has not happened in my 375 with 300 SAF and 270 TSX. The 270 TSX is more versatile from an all around standpoint. The Hornady solid shoots to the same poa as the 300 SAF and I use the solid on the small antelopes. So for me I have it covered.
With a dozen kills with the 270 TSX and my TDS reticle scope I know I can grab it and their is not much I can't accomplish.
I have only recovered two bullets out of a dozen animals. On the shots that these recovered bullets were involved in I knew that I could drive them into a solid area that would cause nervous system shutdown. They did.
I have never complained about a recovered bullet or a recovered game animal.
I also feel the same way with my 308 and 168 TSX.
I don't have passion for the 150 gr Winchester XP3. "stuff" happens I know but if I track something and hour and a half due to bullet failure I am not as forgiving. Quick and 100% recovery of a game animal every time sure helps gain my confidence in a bullet.

I just weighed it again - 177.4 grains. I agree that sectional density isn't nearly as important when comparing soft point bullets as compared to solids. But when all four petals shear off of a TSX, it's no longer an expanding bullet. It's a solid with poor SD!

The TSX is my go-to bullet in many calibers. I'm not bashing them as a whole. For the price I think they're a great deal. I just think that this particular bullet needs a little engineering to prevent it from shedding its petals on impact. For game under 1,000 pounds it's fine just the way it is. But for the big stuff, I'd hesitate to use this bullet again.

To each, his own. It is actually my go to bullet for buff.

One issue to keep in mind is the resolution of your experience. Will the decisions made on this be more accurate or beneficial by judging the performance on a dozen examples or several hundred (thousands?)

Many situations can be misjudged by using a few examples rather then enough to see the greater resolution of performance with plenty of animals harvested. I'll suggest that used long enough your confidence and success would go thru the roof!

bg: I don't recall saying that.. ..think you have the wrong guy

I agree fully, so the larger the mushroom, the more starting SD I want in an expanding bullet because it will decrease significantly upon impact. I shoot 150g in my 270, 300 to 350g in my 375 and 570g in my .510.

Someone on the NitroExpressForum did extensive penetration testing of 375 H&H bullets/loads and the 300g TSX and 350g Woodleigh PP tied, everything else penetrated less. The Woodleigh expanded to twice it's diameter which is typical for their soft points. I'll try to find the posts (which are long) and link them.

Here's the 375 H&H penetration testing link. Fingers crossed that it still works.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?p=122864#post122864

I'll be hunting Buff and lioness next year. Been contemplating working up a load with the 270gr. TSX as I have no doubt it'll perform exceeding well on both animals.

Giraffe is on the menu too (bait). With the hide considerably thicker on the giraffe, would it be prudent to consider a solid instead? Body shots will be taken as I desire to retain the skull for my curio cabinet.

I wasn't referring to anything you said. I forget when responding it links to a previous post. Sorry.

No problemo....

Im confused by that link. I see nowhere in that series of info any results for the TSX other then retained weight of 99% ?

They compare a whole bunch of penetration with various bullets, but I'm not seeing anything with the penetration of the TSX in that link. Am I missing something there?

I have seen many hundreds of real live big game to VERY big game shot with bonded core and the TSX. I'm not going to be easily convinced that jugs of water and plywood testing will trump what I have seen in the African bush first hand with my own eyes, my own rifle and the 270 TSX loads.

The bonded core bullets are not even close the potential of penetration that a TSX will provide you.

Sorry the link is so old. Absolutely your live game experience is much more valuable than shooting jugs of water seperated by plywood. The value of his experiment was that each bullet was tested by the same methodology, nothing more.

I'll interpret the results:

5}BarnesTSX_____2457______4___________4_________.7 25_______299.7_________99.9
6}BarnesTSX______-________4___________3_________.730_______299.7____ _____99.9

Barnes 300g TSX at 2450 fps expanded to .7 retained 99.9% of it's weight.

Penetration of the Barnes 300g TSX:

5} Found on table next to 5th board. Dented 5th board.
6} Found in 4th jug. Dented 5th board.

Similarly for the 300g A-Frames and 350g Woodleighs which are last.

Really a good discussion here people! Page 2 and no name calling!

The bullets look like they performed well to me, but losing petal or two while killing game doesn't bother me.

I've been shooting "petal" bullets on big game since about 1990, whether original X's, Fail Safes or Nosler E-Tips. I've even shot animals at a deliberate angle to retain an expanded bullet, just to see what would happen. I've also seen other hunters use the same sort of bullets on a bunch of other animals. The total runs into the hundreds.

A few have blown off all their petals, though the evidence varies because most exit, and it's tough to find a tiny petal inside an animal. Though I did once find a petal at the entrance hole, from a 300-grain Fail Safe shot broadside through a Cape buffalo.

I have yet to notice that losing petals has any effect on how the bullet kills stuff. Perhaps this is because every time any bullet has lost all its petals it hit big bone, and fragments of the bone helped kill the animal.

I've also seen a few animals shot with the G-S monolithic bullet, which is more-or-less designed to blow off the petals. It kills just as well as any bullet that retains its petals, and maybe better.

My conclusion is that too many obsessive hunters put a lot of emphasis on how an expanded bullet looks rather than how it kills.

Me either, I'm very happy using the TSX's in my 500 Jeffery. The one large (not dangerous) animal I've shot with the 570g TSX at 2410 fps so far was a 450 lb (dressed) feral hog at 8 feet in a thicket. It went through his brain (between the eyes), traversed his entire length and exited through his left thigh. It liquified his guts, they just gushed out. Didn't really care if it lost a petal or two on the way out. Looking forward to taking my 500 Jeffery to Africa in a couple of years.