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Ron,
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<br>I wish I would have known earlier we have a LR Antelope hunt coming up this Sept. You still might be able to get a leftover tag though..... Should b a good time, Alot of LR guys are gonna be there.. and We will probobly shoot some video for the 2nd LR tape there....

Ron Brill... Morning person? No, I find it more to my work schedule to go on-line in the late evenings.
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<br>Coffee? Clean my glasses before I type? I believe you are insinuating I must not be in control of my thoughts before I type. Is this the type of body slam comments you speak of?
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<br>I don't hunt above a pile of bait, as I've stated before. I've never been in a tree stand, either. Never even seen a deer in real life, for that matter. Caribou is what we have up here. This info was previously posted. It ain't no secret. Try read all the facts before you post something. Its available to you.
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<br>Sure, them LRH can shoot, and I'm not condemning their abilities, of which I've also stated previously. Go read it.
<br>What I am saying, simply is LRS are only shooting at animals at extreme ranges, hese not hunters, because they don't actually pursue the anaimal. They search for it, they spot it, and they shoot it, all at extreme ranges. At what point do they actually pursue? I wonder if theyd be quiet enough lugging that bench around as they pursue... ~~~Suluuq
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Ron Brill... Its clear to me you've singled me out to badger with.
<br>No, those were NOT my antelope comments you saw! You're so possessed with arguing with me you've got the wrong person. How does one read "Okanagan" as Rusty Gunn?
<br>BIGOT usually refers to condemning another's religion. But I'll accept Hypocrite, as well. Those were not my comments about shooting antelope at 800 yards, erronously mixed in with my real stand against LRH, which would have made me guilty of being a hypocrite. But you've got it all wrong.
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<br>Yes, I accept your appology... your glasses were dirty.
<br>~~~Suluuq

This bad talking people is too easy to get cauhgt up in. I didn't say the antalope post was yours, I simple refered back to it. Most of what I've read in this post is nothing more than bad rhetoric. It gets old fast. Why did I single you out, it was a natural responce to your Hunting crack. The next time you ask somebody to refer to a dictionary make sure you have one handy. BIGOT- 1)a person who holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc.. 2)a narrow-minded prejudice person.
<br> You take this stuff too personal, most of my caments are adressing the previous posters who blindly and steadfastly opose things they don't do, don't like or don't understand. Many have refered to long range hunters as long range shooters in spite of the very well stated views of the long range hunters who tried to educate them on the subject. This was an effort to insult those hunters. I'm disapointed the moderators have permitted this back and forth bashing to continue and IF my memory is correct joined in on it. What amazes me is that people with such strong views on a subject would visit a topic they disagree with. I guess they're not into an inteligent exchange of ideas, they just want to argue.
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<br> Ps don't hold your breath

Ron Brill... You called me by my handle, didn't you?
<br>"As for the antelope reply got ya." You got me? I didn't make an antelope reply, nor did I say one thing and do another contrary to it that would cause you to believe you got me. If this was for "the other posters", then who did you get? What contrary posts did they make?
<br>"One of them was really out there!" 800 yards, wasn't it? As opposed to 300? 800 is really out there, I agree.
<br>"Actually you have a point." About asking to wound an animal if I shoot at 800, so 300 is plenty, so as to avoid it?
<br>Them's Okanagan's words, not mine.
<br>Most of your comments were to whom? Previous posters? Next time use THEIR handles when you speak to them. How will they know you're talking to them?
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<br>The thing is, you goofed, and now by saying it was for the other posters, and not me, only shows you can't accept being corrected, after you made a mistake. Everyone can read and understand your post, that you were refering to me, simply because you're dwelling on this too much, ie singling me out, when it was another who posted. I hadn't been here in days.
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<br>I'm not insulting these people. They already said they have the abilities/equipment. This I believe.
<br>But where is the 'hunt?' Simple question.
<br>(In my first post to you, I asked you to look up the word hunt, then I said it meant to pursue. As in a quest, a stalk. This must have offended you, insinuating you were ignorant. Sorry, but you misunderstood my point. My point was that this, IMO, is not hunting, but shooting at live animals at extreme ranges. This was in regards to your post to Dave, that we don't learn since "we" still call LRH as LRS. It wasn't meant to offend, but to make a point. You didn't get it.)
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<br>Why do I visit this topic? Because I started it. I didn't join in.
<br>THEY are the one's who disagree with ME on my take on HUNTING. They say it is, I say it ain't. We agree to disagree.
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<br>Although I hold the opposite view of theirs, it's still a legit view point. And it ain't a blind opinion. I UNDERSTAND my views. I'm not against what they do, just don't think its hunting (to pursue, to quest, to stalk.)
<br>May I suggest a re-read (dare I say a first read?) of my first original post? See if it makes sense to you, how it compares to shooting gongs/targets at extreme ranges, with gongs/targets not running off wounded, as a possibility. This is why I don't support it.
<br>~~~Suluuq

RG,
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<br>I assume you stalk every Boo-Boo you kill from reading your posts thats fine, I wonder if you have ever shot at one from distance?
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<br>Here where I hunt if you get within 200 yards your doing great! You can see 15 miles at some spots!!! I never said I always take a bench into the mountains. I usually use a bi-pod, and yes I can sneak very well!!
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<br>I spend alot of time studying and paterning the migrating deer. In your opinion is this not a type of premediated pusuit? Or do you always have to spot and stalk. I spend a great deal of time watching the deer herds and where the choose to live feed and bed at different times of the year. Is this not all encompased in hunting?
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<br>Why do you non LRH not see that there is more involved that going to a hill setting up and "hoping" somthing happens by to where we can see and shoot it.
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<br>I was badgered for not admiting to some margin of error in the field . I admitted there is some... Why can't the non LRH admit there is hunting involved in LRH....
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<br>Are you guys that bull headed.. or are your ignorances controlling you???

In my big game hunting career, I've gotten all of them within 50 yards. But thats just me. just my prefered style. Can't say for other SRH.
<br>Finally, you, and at least one other, admit to some degree of error beyound your control. Note, this is NOT about YOUR abilities/equipment. Its about the error-factor that longer ranges inhibit. The risk factor goes up the further out the game is.
<br>I'm not comfortable with this extra risk, but if you insist you are, then so be it. Do as you please.
<br>LRH (there, does this satisfy?) expect everyone to accept it, to condone, support it. This thread, and some others, as well new ones in the future, show other-wise. So why advocate it? ~~~Suluuq

RG,
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<br>You skirted around my question. I and at least one other admitted to some error. Will you or any others admit there is hunting involved in LRH?
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<br>Here is another point to ponder. Could there be as much risk in the respect of error hunting at close range as well. ie; You stalk real close then there is just a subtle change in the breeze as you begin to pull the trigger. BOOM, at the instant you pull the trigger the Boo-Boo recognizes your scent, spooks, and your bullet is in the guts instead of the heart???
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<br>There is error in everything. I am sure for every way of error in LRH, I can counter it with some error in SRH...
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<br>For ther record, I do not expect every one to accept, support or condone LRH.. I will however, point out alot of misconceptions others have. Keep in mind ( review past posts ) most who hear and read about this come as "us" with bullets blazing... fair???

This is the first time I've visited this forum and it may be my last. A friend of mine suggested I stop here because he siad there was a lot of talk about LRH. He didn't do me any favors!
<br> Although there were same good pionts made, they were over shadowed by idiotic view points and insesive bickering. I feel it would have been a good idea for the moderator to step a long time ago to save his membership and credability of this forum.
<br> I hunt very close at times 15-50yrds. but have lost count of the number of dear I've dropped cleanly at 250-400 yrds.
<br> Rusty gun, get a life, get a brain and get some cheese to go with that WHINE!!!!!!!

bingo,
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<br>one of the reasons that many of us use this forum is because the Webmaster isn't a petty, censoring, butthead like those found on many other forums. Sure, there is a lot of disagreement at times (free country!), but there are also many very knowledgeable and experienced hunters and shooters on this forum. We like it the way it is, thank you, and if it isn't to your taste, sorry 'bout that. Free country. badger.

Badger, well said. You pointed out some of the reasons I like this site, I don't always agree with everything either, but like newspapers or Television, I can choose what I want to watch, read or participate in. I find it is all words on a screen and surely I can not take too much offense to that. I feel our Rick is doing what he has to do when he has to, and that is working out just fine.
<br>Bill

Interesting thread... I'll admit I didn't read the whole thing... gets a bit tedious.
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<br>I think it's good to question ourselves... our motives and responsibility. If we as hunters (and shooters... or both!) don't, then others will... including lawmakers.
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<br>I hung up my bow for many of the same reasons RustyGunn has questioned LRS. That's an entirely new and different can of worms to introduce to this thread (are we going for 1,300 posts?).
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<br>Suffice to say, I'm a fair to middlin shot past 300 yards. Varminting does keep one sharp in that area, and when I'm short on that sort of practice my LRS skills deteriorate. I have friends who keep their skills at max, year round, and are proabbaly better on 400 yard shots than many (or most) one-box-a-year types are at 50 yards! I have also found that most of these guys don't tend to talk much about long range hits, but rather take substantial pride in getting close. Those are the hunters I really admire. I ALWAYS try to get as close as I can. If 220 yards is it, then I'm happy I have the ability to take the shot.
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<br>An aquaintance of mine guides elk hunters each year just north of Bozeman, here in Montana. He told me he has a couple of guys come out every year that shoot 1,000 yard high-power competitively. They tend to bring 300 Win Mags. To a man, none will take a 500 yard shot (their max) on an elk unless everyting is absolutely perfect... no wind, plenty of time, un-spooked animal, etc. He told me the conditions are rarely "right" so most of these gents take their bulls inside 100 yards.
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<br>Food for thought.
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<br>BA

What badger said !

I agree with alot of what you said...
<br>I too guide for big game in Wyo. Conditions rarely are exactly perfect. When I guide Most if not all shots are inside 200 yards. I have had some that got close to 400 but there were certain conditions and all the animals were harvested in 1 shot. When I personally LRH I wait until conditions are such that there is no mistake that I will kill the animal in 1 shot. I beleive it is that way with most LRH. I am confident in saying that most LRH pass on way more shots than they have taken. I usually tend to get close to my animals as well. However, there are several "honey holes" that just do not allow a man to get closer than 500 yards. Because of these spots and my interest in varmint hunting, I began to learn what it takes to be a LRH. Now it is an obsession of sorts to be an accomplished marksman to 1000 yards. I will not however harvest an animal beyond my abilities....
<br>I am still a neophyte in this sport but I have taken the time to surround myself with friends and people who basically gave birth to this sport and/or are the forfathers of it.

Bingo... Thems ptetty tough words for a first timer here. Try read every thing before you post, and read up on me some, of what I've posted previous to this LRH forum being made, it's quite obvious you don't know me, nor understand my view point. ~~~Suluuq

Lets put an end to this... "I", me personally, don't think shooting at live targets at extreme ranges is hunting. Thats MY view on it.
<br>Whatever is YOUR view on it, fine.
<br>I can't convince them, they can't convince me. We agree to disagree. End of story. ~~~Suluuq

I am a newcomer to this subject. There are a very few shooters who are capable of reliably killing big game at very long ranges, I assume some of you have been contributing to this discussion. Guys who shoot prairie dogs and woodchucks all summer, big bore match shooters, people who can dope wind well enough not to shoot at an animal when there is any wind at all. Maybe, just maybe, there are a hundred shooters like that in the entire USA who can be trusted to infallibly kill a deer at a thousand yards.... and who have enough sense to use a bullet heavy enough to make the kill after it has slowed all the way down out there. The problem is not those few, it is the typical hunter who listens to the tall tales, reads the bs about the new cartridges in the magazines, and who thinks that if he cranks his scope up to 10x and uses a new super .30 he can kill any animal as far as he can see it.
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<br>That said, I incline to agree with the contributor who calls it "shooting", if you gents want to haul a bench rest and a twenty pound rifle up to a mountaintop it's OK by me, you're in better shape than I am, but to my mind it's more of a mathematical exercise than what this oldtimer, who considers the .270 an ultra modern cartridge, would call "hunting". Fascinating technically, no doubt, but no outsmarting the game involved, on the other hand as some have said here, there's not much sport in shooting over bait either ... but in some parts of the country, it's the only way to get game.
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<br>And if you are going to show me how you use a 20mm, let me put on my earmuffs first.

Miki,
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<br>I respect what you are saying, it's your right to express how you feel but let me touch on some of the things you said.
<br>I mean this as no disrespect but you touched on a key point. You said, "this oldtimer, who considers the .270 an ultra modern cartridge." Things are changing in the relm of high power. It makes sense that distances will begin to stretch as well. Don't get me wrong that doesn't mean every armchair hunter can go buy a big 30 a fire away, I agree with you there. The second thing is that not all LRH carry a bench in the woods. I feel alot would if they could. Also, as far as your comment on a mathmatical exersise, you're right there is alot of math involved. Again much like that of an archer who needs to know how is bow will launch a certain weight arrow at given distances out to 40 yards, in some cases 60 yards. LRH's just take that to an extreme with rifles and ballistics. You mentioned outsmarting the animal. I'm not sure if you realize the way alot of deer in the mountains of PA or the deer and Elk in the Rockies travel. Alot travel on specific paths "migration trails" or travel routes to and from feeding and bedding areas. LRH gives you the opportunity to watch many of these travel ways. MUCH LIKE THAT OF AN ARCHER who shoots animals at a much close distance on a travel way. But, nevertheless the LRH still puts as much effort into learning these trails like the archer would.
<br>I personally think that the guys who hunt over bait but denounce LRH are hypocrits.
<br>You mentioned outsmarting game. How does "normal" hunting differ from LRH in that respect? I'm curious to see your view and direct comparison over the techniques and skills used by a SRH as in comparison to a LRH. Maybe we can compare and help you and others see that there are not as many differences and there are many more similarities than you think.

Although it may look like I am responding to Wy, I am not. If I knew how to post a response without it "looking" like I am responding to 1 person I would, but I don't.
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<br>Anyhow,
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<br>I have seen some mention of using a bench for the purpose of hunting. Some of you know I use a bench "most" of the time while I whitetail hunt near my home. "Some" of you even know "why" I use a bench. I use a bench out of an elevated stand because I need to - I have a handicap that doesn't allow me to shoot offhand at a range past 50 yards and expect to hit anything. For me to shoot "offhand" beyond 50 yards would make me an "Unethical" hunter - in "MY" view.
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<br>The reason I post this:
<br>I have the general feeling from most that have posted to this thread that we should all "Scout" an area prior to hunting said area. I couldn't agree more. However there are time constraints where we sometimes don't have the "time" to do so (such as if it is an out of state hunt). If I hunt "out of state" and I hire a guide, I feel that it is the guides responsibility to "scout" the area. I feel that that is one of the reasons I hired said guide. I have seen where some don't beleive that a guided hunt is fair chase, and thats fine, I just happen to think otherwise. We are "all" permitted to make that decision for ourselves.
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<br>Another point is that (as some have suggested) if you shoot off a bench from the same spot all the time, that isn't hunting. If a person knows a peice of property because said person has hunted that same property for a number of years and knows the "routes" the animal that is being hunted takes, then to me that is hunting. I see know difference in sitting on a 5 gallon plastic bucket (like I did 20 years ago) near a "trail" then sitting in a stand with a bench in it. The only difference is that I am now more comfy. To "me" that is still hunting. If the distance becomes the issue then thats what it is per said person, an "issue". To me the difference in the distance has no bearing on the "hunt" (within your known ability).
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<br>I understand the "tongue in cheek" of some of the posts with regards to carrying a bench in the woods to hunt. Actually, if "all" of us could and did carry a bench in the woods wouldn't it be better? No matter if you are killing said animal at 100, 200, 300, 500 or 1000 yards. Wouldn't everyone agree it is more "accurate" to shoot off a bench no matter what the range (versus offhand)? So when I see some poking fun at those that choose to use a bench I say, cool to the guy willing and able to use the bench. To "me" that person is acting in a more responsible manner.
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<br>There is no way I could physically carry my bench in the woods along with all my other gear. My bench weighs around 90lbs.
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<br>I think we all need to take a hard look at ourselves and stop all the bickering amongst ourselves and learn from each other based on each others experiences. Just because those experiences don't always coincide doesn't mean we have to sit here and toss mud at one another. We are ALL better then that, we are ALL HUNTERS.
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<br>Ok time for me to get off my soap box,
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<br>Don