|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 64
Campfire Greenhorn
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 64 |
I once nailed a coyote at 80 yards (running) with my sling shot.
I don't care what you say, I made the shot, and that's that. So all you girly-men hunting with rifles, get a slingshot.
I by no means am doubting your slingshot kill. I would like to see data where it was proof tested though. I do not want to see you get an eye put out with that thing.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1 |
listen to what Hunters/shooters/'Smiths/powder company's ARE saying. They and you are full of $hit.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983 919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624 |
Holy crap this post has taken a turn....lets get back on task here has it really or is just that one question submitted from a person who may not know better , has been replace by the same standard by someone who IMO twists things for their own betterment . Does Ardesa , Dikar , did Jukar , proof every barrel . NO . So why is there a proof stamp . Because they BATCH PROOF thus the proof house has certified the barrels thus clearing the batch to carry thier mark . Now you could argue around the subject of if these marking are provincial markings or actual definitive proofs . magnafluxing only serves as a Provincial type of proof . IE by magnafluxing they find out if there is any visible reason why the barrel would not pass a Definitive proof ,its not an actual Definitive proof . Lot by lot testing is just another name for batch testing and does NOT mean every barrel within that lot has been proofed . It only means that �IF� every barrel within that lot , is manufactured to the same standards as the barrel that was tested , then all is relative. Thus if the US had the same Government enforced laws as many European countries do ,then every one of those barrels within that lot would have to carry a proof mark as the laws accept batch testing as an actual proof .Again under the very same assumption that every barrel made will be identical to the one tested . But the reality of it is we know they are not . Thus there are allowable variables in tolerances that are accepted. We also must understand that just because a barrel was proofed , it doesn�t mean it stays in proof . Pitting of the barrel is just one thing that removes the proof . If a company like GM were to produce a barrel under English proofing laws , then sold that barrel to a company who cut dove tails , welded , soldered or threaded the barrel for a receiver or lets say they plated the barrel with nickel or chromed it . The barrel is then out of proof and the markings mean nothing . Now how are you going to proof a barrel that hasn�t been chambered yet . The answer is you DON�T . A Provincial proof is done. If the barrel blank passes that proof , then you finish the barrel and send it back for a Definitive proof which hopefully it will pass But concerning muzzle loading , the minute that barrel is bored to a given bore and threaded for a plug , the very same thing has been done as in the chambering process . IE the finished barrel has been defined . Thus a Definitive proof can then be done . Lets not also forget that companies here in the US do not have to submit for proof. in fact there is nothing that ensures a company even follows the SAAMI Recommendations when they say they do .All that is just voluntary and we as customers have to accept that they do what they say they do .. I know for a Fact that one of the best and most reputable muzzleloading barrel makers in the US does very little proofing . The owner has told me so . In fact he has stated this in public and openly that they stopped long ago doing anything more then an accessional batch test. Most recently in a discussion concerning 12L14 being to soft for safe barrels . He had this to say . We have taken12" long pieces of barrel, threaded and breeched both ends, drilling a hole in it for a fuse, and blew it up. From what has been said on this subject, one would think this would act like grenade, blowing shrapnel all over the place. Not so, it merely opened up like a banana peel. We also did the same thing to a piece of barrel that was made in a foreign country, I won't say which one. Now, this one did act like a grenade, we found only about 1/3 of the barrel, the rest was blow to god knows where. We also did a lot of proofing real thin barrels with huge loads, could not get them to blow. Also shot barrels with short started balls, could not get them to bulge or blow. The only way we could get a bulge in the barrel was to load the barrel with powder and a patched ball pushed all the way down onto the powder, then short starting a ball on top of all this...... bulged the barrel but did not blow it off. As a result of all of this playing around, I kind of thought to myself that it's sort of foolish to proof a barrel, at least one of ours which I know how it is breeched. There have been a lot of comments by people who have never made a barrel, nor did any experimental blow-ups. Unless you know what you're talking about you are doing a great disservice to the muzzleloading game...............Don So what is more surprising? Is it that some company uses batch testing or magnafluxs and calls it a proof or is it a company who allows barrels with installed breech plugs that have the nipples held in by a heli coil to be sold to the public . Maybe its another US company that for a time sold a lot of barrels with the breech plugs that were just under 1/8 off face The whole thing is nothing more then listening to obama give a speech . Just one spin after another
Last edited by captchee; 10/06/11.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 588
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 588 |
"muzzleloadertechtips.com" is a CVA blogsite, with a post over a year old from "Carlos Vilorio, a CVA pro shooter." "http://www.shootersforum.com/muzzleloaders/59579-cva-apex-acuraccy-problem.html" is a two year old thread about a fellow who is getting 5 inch groups from a .308 "Bergara" barrel, what he calls the worst-shooting .308 he's ever had. He says, " This is suposed to be an accurate Bergara barrel but it is the worst shooting .308 or any other centerfire riffle barrel I have ever experanced."
--Randy
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 588
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 588 |
Does Ardesa , Dikar , did Jukar , proof every barrel . NO . So why is there a proof stamp . Because they BATCH PROOF thus the proof house has certified the barrels thus clearing the batch to carry thier mark . Have you informed Dikar of your findings and also informed them that they have perjured themselves in Federal Court?
--Randy
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,227
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,227 |
Randy...........Lets get to the bottom line. Lets say you're 100% right, and Bergara barrels aren't proof tested.
Have you seen, or even heard of one failing?
Let's not say the sky if falling without getting hit in the head at least once.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
i know Carlos and know for a fact that he wouldnt steer any fellow the wrong way. In fact ive heard stories of members being in hard time and he went and gave them an entire new hunting package just to perk them up and make them look forward to a hunting season. Hes a great person. I've been shooting CVA since i was 16-17 years old, 10 years experience with them and they have never shown a safety issue at all. Hell, i customized an old CVA Blazer " shortened barrel - stock refinish" sent a pic to Dudley " bpi ceo" and he warned me to check out the nipple threads inside the barrel and if there was any pitting in there, send it in and he'd send a new Wolf as a replacement. Can't beat that when the CEO himself becomes involved with their customers and gives you hands on service. from this, To this,
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,102
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,102 |
listen to what Hunters/shooters/'Smiths/powder company's ARE saying. They and you are full of $hit. Even Mike Bellm? Pull the ram-rod outta of your ass, not every product is inferior without the name Remington engraved on it. Damn, with all the great reviews and recommendation's concerning 'break actions, think I'll order an Apex from B.Hick's today. After viewing/handling T/C, CVA & Traditions at the shot-show this year...they all looked great & well built. I'll let you know how it shoots & how many fingers are left in a few days.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
slg88, the Apex is a fun gun but i REALLY like the Scout. Got my nephew a compact scout in .243 a month or 2 back and love that thing. It weighs less than the trigger pull on my Mosin Nagant LOL.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,844
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,844 |
Holy crap this post has taken a turn....lets get back on task here has it really or is just that one question submitted from a person who may not know better , has been replace by the same standard by someone who IMO twists things for their own betterment . Does Ardesa , Dikar , did Jukar , proof every barrel . NO . So why is there a proof stamp . Because they BATCH PROOF thus the proof house has certified the barrels thus clearing the batch to carry thier mark . Now you could argue around the subject of if these marking are provincial markings or actual definitive proofs . magnafluxing only serves as a Provincial type of proof . IE by magnafluxing they find out if there is any visible reason why the barrel would not pass a Definitive proof ,its not an actual Definitive proof . Lot by lot testing is just another name for batch testing and does NOT mean every barrel within that lot has been proofed . It only means that �IF� every barrel within that lot , is manufactured to the same standards as the barrel that was tested , then all is relative. Thus if the US had the same Government enforced laws as many European countries do ,then every one of those barrels within that lot would have to carry a proof mark as the laws accept batch testing as an actual proof .Again under the very same assumption that every barrel made will be identical to the one tested . But the reality of it is we know they are not . Thus there are allowable variables in tolerances that are accepted. We also must understand that just because a barrel was proofed , it doesn�t mean it stays in proof . Pitting of the barrel is just one thing that removes the proof . If a company like GM were to produce a barrel under English proofing laws , then sold that barrel to a company who cut dove tails , welded , soldered or threaded the barrel for a receiver or lets say they plated the barrel with nickel or chromed it . The barrel is then out of proof and the markings mean nothing . Now how are you going to proof a barrel that hasn�t been chambered yet . The answer is you DON�T . A Provincial proof is done. If the barrel blank passes that proof , then you finish the barrel and send it back for a Definitive proof which hopefully it will pass But concerning muzzle loading , the minute that barrel is bored to a given bore and threaded for a plug , the very same thing has been done as in the chambering process . IE the finished barrel has been defined . Thus a Definitive proof can then be done . Lets not also forget that companies here in the US do not have to submit for proof. in fact there is nothing that ensures a company even follows the SAAMI Recommendations when they say they do .All that is just voluntary and we as customers have to accept that they do what they say they do .. I know for a Fact that one of the best and most reputable muzzleloading barrel makers in the US does very little proofing . The owner has told me so . In fact he has stated this in public and openly that they stopped long ago doing anything more then an accessional batch test. Most recently in a discussion concerning 12L14 being to soft for safe barrels . He had this to say . We have taken12" long pieces of barrel, threaded and breeched both ends, drilling a hole in it for a fuse, and blew it up. From what has been said on this subject, one would think this would act like grenade, blowing shrapnel all over the place. Not so, it merely opened up like a banana peel. We also did the same thing to a piece of barrel that was made in a foreign country, I won't say which one. Now, this one did act like a grenade, we found only about 1/3 of the barrel, the rest was blow to god knows where. We also did a lot of proofing real thin barrels with huge loads, could not get them to blow. Also shot barrels with short started balls, could not get them to bulge or blow. The only way we could get a bulge in the barrel was to load the barrel with powder and a patched ball pushed all the way down onto the powder, then short starting a ball on top of all this...... bulged the barrel but did not blow it off. As a result of all of this playing around, I kind of thought to myself that it's sort of foolish to proof a barrel, at least one of ours which I know how it is breeched. There have been a lot of comments by people who have never made a barrel, nor did any experimental blow-ups. Unless you know what you're talking about you are doing a great disservice to the muzzleloading game...............Don So what is more surprising? Is it that some company uses batch testing or magnafluxs and calls it a proof or is it a company who allows barrels with installed breech plugs that have the nipples held in by a heli coil to be sold to the public . Maybe its another US company that for a time sold a lot of barrels with the breech plugs that were just under 1/8 off face The whole thing is nothing more then listening to obama give a speech . Just one spin after another Holy [bleep] who the hell wants to read "War and Peace"
My dog is a member of the "Turd Like Clan"
Covert Trail Cameras are JUNK
3 Time Dinkathon Champion #DinkGOAT
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,251 |
GM produced barrels with incorrect nipple threads in the bolster and installed an american size nipple. They fixed it with helicoil when customers complained and then flat out replaced barrels because customers didnt like their half assed hemicoil repair.
Shows you how much attention GM pays to their barrels.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,844
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,844 |
You guys are on pace to take over for the Optics threads and make the Muzzlleloading threads the most long winded boring and the place with the most bitchers too
My dog is a member of the "Turd Like Clan"
Covert Trail Cameras are JUNK
3 Time Dinkathon Champion #DinkGOAT
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,227
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,227 |
Even your dog looks bored.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1 |
While danger can be fun, I don't like dangerous firearms. I'd rather stick with a dependable and well made American firearm.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983 919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,844
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,844 |
Oh you mean like Remington?
My dog is a member of the "Turd Like Clan"
Covert Trail Cameras are JUNK
3 Time Dinkathon Champion #DinkGOAT
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 588
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 588 |
Have you seen, or even heard of one failing?
Yes.
--Randy
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624 |
Does Ardesa , Dikar , did Jukar , proof every barrel . NO . So why is there a proof stamp . Because they BATCH PROOF thus the proof house has certified the barrels thus clearing the batch to carry thier mark . Have you informed Dikar of your findings and also informed them that they have perjured themselves in Federal Court? see you want this to be fact so badly that you dont get it . do they proof test their barrels . yes do they proof test every barrel. NO so why the proof mark ? see your so caught up in this idea of what you think a proof is , that you have lost the ability to remember that a barrel having a "proof" mark means ZIP! unless its a definitive proof . It doesn�t even ever have to have actually been fired to carry the provincial mark. Not to also mention that just because a barrel carries a definitive proof mark , does not in any way mean its still in proof even if the barrel is brand spanking new . So the real question , if it maters a lot , is what is the proof mark and what are the Spanish laws that allow that mark to be maintained through batch testing But even that doesn�t mater as the mark is subject to laws of another country , NOT ours . Until we come up with an actual enforceable Law that requires everyone to meet a give independently tested standard you don�t have a leg to stand on. Especially considering the numbers of Spanish barrels in circulation in this country . Frankly speaking of that , I cant for the life of me figure out why the importers , distributors , possibly the Spanish manufactures don�t sue the daylights out of you . Thus making you prove your standards in court . Personally I think that�s what should happen . Not only would this subject be put to bed but then a precedence could possibly be set requiring American barrel manufactures to prove their statements as well
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,624 |
Holy [bleep] who the hell wants to read "War and Peace" dont know what to tell you about that . Maybe if you read some books you would understand. Come to think about it maybe i should make links to what others have to say . better yet take their experience , claim it as my own and use it to write books. Then I could threaded to sue for copy write ,anyone who directly �quoted� those writings . Now there is a novel idea . Ohm wait that�s already been done .
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,844
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,844 |
Still boring try this to help...
My dog is a member of the "Turd Like Clan"
Covert Trail Cameras are JUNK
3 Time Dinkathon Champion #DinkGOAT
|
|
|
|
532 members (1OntarioJim, 219 Wasp, 1badf350, 10gaugemag, 160user, 1Longbow, 41 invisible),
2,316
guests, and
1,232
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,194,334
Posts18,526,746
Members74,031
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|