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Per requests:

This is for academic reference only and no claims are made...

Disclaimer:
use at your own risks... remember to work up if you do use any of these loads... and they only proved to be safe in the rifles I own... not making any inferences otherwise..


Blue Dot Range Report: 223 Caliber ( Full )

Bullet Weights Tested:
1. 35 grain Hornady V Max
2. 40 grain Hornady Vmax
3. 45 grain Sierra SP
4. 50 grain Sierra SMP
5. 52 grain Sierra Boat Tail Match
6. 55 grain Winchester FMJ

Rifle Used: Ruger 77 Mk 2, VT 26 inch Barrel, Stainless Steel First yr Model

Case: Lake City Surplus, previously fired

Primer: Remington 6 ½

Powder: Blue Dot

Charge Weight Tested: 4 grains to 14 grains.


Weather: Sunny, NO clouds, 80 degrees, NO wind,

Altitude: 2000 ft

Humidity: Very Low


Field Results:


35 grain Hornady V Max:

4 grs: 1284 fps
5 grs: 1488 fps
6 grs: 1862 fps
7 grs: 2163 fps
8 grs: 2392 fps

9 grs: 2636 fps
10 grs: 2722 fps
11 grs: 3076 fps
12 grs: 3205 fps
13 grs: NO Reading
14 grs: 3518 fps



Hornady 40 grain Vmax:

4 grs: 1161 fps
5 grs: 1538 fps
6 grs: 1798 fps
7 grs: 2148 fps

8 grs: 2243 fps
9 grs: 2539 fps
10 grs: 2771 fps
11 grs: 2956 fps

12 grs: 3013 fps
13 grs: 3218 fps
14 grs: 3375 fps


Sierra 45 grain SP

4 grs: 1239 fps
5 grs: 1447 fps
6 grs: 1688 fps
7 grs: 1880 fps

8 grs: 2118 fps
9 grs: 2363 fps
10 grs: 2553 fps
11 grs: 2811 fps

12 grs: 2875 fps
13 grs: 3008 fps
14 grs: 3164 fps


Sierra 50 grains SMP

4 grs: 1064 fps
5 grs: 1345 fps
6 grs: 1624 fps
7 grs: 1788 fps

8 grs: 2033 fps
9 grs: 2257 fps
10 grs: 2466 fps
11 grs: 2655 fps
12 grs: 2779 fps

13 grs: 2882 fps
14 grs: 3038 fps


Sierra 52 grain Boattail Hollow Point Match

4 grs: 1061 fps
5grs: 1460 fps
6 grs: 1632 fps
7 grs: 1916 fps

8 grs: 2142 fps
9 grs: 2225 fps
10 gr: NO Reading
11 grs: 2673 fps

12 grs: 2782 fps
13 grs: 2879 fps
14 grs: 3012 fps


Winchester 55 grain FMJ

4 grs: 896 fps
5 grs: 1264 fps
6 grs: 1568 fps
7 grs: 1825 fps
8 grs: 1994 fps

9 grs: 2201 fps
10 grs: 2328 fps
11 grs: 2453 fps

12 grs: 2677 fps
13 grs: 2821 fps
14 grs: 2915 fps



Notes:

1. IN the evaluation of the 223, I came further to the conclusion of the versatility of the 223 in the use of training new shooters, and for a very versatile varmint caliber.
2. Essentially the 223 can be loaded to the specs of a 22 Long rifle, a 218 Bee, a 221 Fireball, a 222 Remington, a 22 Hornet, and a 22 Win Mag., while allowing the shooter to be able to pick the type of bullet that he prefers.
3. Bullets were limited to use of 35 grains to 55 grains. Heavier bullets will not serve any purpose unless a 223 is to be used for deer hunting. I do not believe that their would be a significant difference in the use of a 55 grain bullet vs a 60 grain bullet.
4. The recoil on the lighter loads using 4 to 6 grains of powder had minimal recoil if any at all. These would be ideal for young shooters being trained.
5. Noise level on the lighter loads ( 4 to 6 grains) were on par with a rim fire. An increase in noise level was very noticeable above 7 grains, but still very acceptable. ( No sounding like a rim fire any more)

Noted Observations:

1. It was noted but not considered part of the testing, with a tree used as a back stop for some of the testing, that all bullets ( 45 to 55 grains)penetrated thru the tree at a distance of 20 yds.
2. The diameter of the tree was measured at 5 inches.
3. The 40 grain Vmax loads failed to penetrate the tree at loads above 10 grs, above 2771 fps. However at 10 grains and less, the bullets penetrated thru the tree and did a large amount of damage ( like turning the wood into tooth picks) on the exit side of the tree. The penetration stopped at the 5 grain load.


Some of the Author’s Conclusions:

1. I learned some significant items beyond the versatility of the 223 with the bullets tested, but focusing on its use in the field, got some ideas.
2. A light rifle such as a Winchester Featherweight or Rugers Compact model with a 16.5 inch barrel or the Ultra Light with a 20 inch barrel would make a good combo with the use of Blue Dot.
3. Since the powder is burned cleanly in the first 10 to 12 inches of barrel, the shorter barrels are not handicappiing velocity in the lighter shorter rifles.
4. The penetration of the 40 grain Vmax into the tree did make me ponder the use of those plastic tip varmint rounds as potential loads for small deer for youth shooters. Just like my observations in the larger calibers, the plastic tipped bullet seem to do a lot more damage, at velocities under 2700 fps. The Vmax surprised me. This is a decision any shooter will have to test on his own and make their own decisions. I am just passing on that I saw potential merit in the application.
5. Although one has to weigh out the potential of Plastic Tipped Varmint bullets on bigger game like deer and antelope, some of these loads in real life use, utilizing Barnes’s X bullets in 22 caliber I can recommend. They make a 45 grain, 50 grain and 53 grain bullet. The way I saw much better penetration and more damage in wood, at the lower range velocities, 2200 to 2700 fps, this would make a good deer load in many parts of the USA, and recoil is minimal.


I did not test any bigger bullets as I feel that those tested would be represent the best potential with the powder. 60, 63, 64, 65 grain bullets and then the larger match bullets did not give what I considered useful velocity when I have shot them before with Blue Dot, in respect to their field design uses.

Updated Feb 2008

cheers
seafire



Posted 08 February 2008 12:10 PM 08 February 2008 23:10 Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 221Fireball:
Seafire2.

How much Blue Dot are you using with the 30 Berger in the 223?


Here is the following info on that range report:
this should help you out.. remember to charge a case and then seat the bullet before going onto the next cartridge, that will eliminate the chance of an accidental double charge.. blue dot is bulky tho.. near max charges will not be a problem...

223 Range Report

Powder: Blue Dot

Bullet: Berger 30 grain HP, Varmint

Rifle Used: Ruger 77 VT

Barrel Length: 26 inches

Primer Used: Winchester Small Rifle

Bullet O.A.L. : 15.55 mms

Cartridge O.A.L. : 57.93 mms


10 grs: 2844 fps

11 grs: 3082 fps

12 grs: 3210 fps

13 grs: 3407 fps

14 grs: 3712 fps

15 grs: 3797 fps

15.5 grs: 3814 fps

16 grs: 3873 fps

16.5 grs: 3957 fps.

Accuracy Potential:
Load of 15 grains of Blue Dot, 30 gr Berger, WSR primer:
5 shot group [email protected] 100 yds: 0.4260 –0.224 bullet diameter = 0.202 group size
Scope: 6.5 x 20 Simmons.. setting at 10 Power.

Personally my max load is 15 grains.. the extra 150 fps between that and 16.5 grains is not much gained..

Again, these are for academic reference only, anyone using these do so at their own risk, as I can not be responsible for other people’s loading techniques.. these proved to be accurate in my firearms…

seafire
feb 2008






"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC

“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez

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Good stuff Thanks.
I can use it.

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After reading seafire's post, I started my own experiment.

I found these results out of a minimum spec Match 223 chamber with zero freebore, barrel 26" long

12.0g of Blue dot with a 40g nosler =3000 fps

14.3g of blue dot =3350 fps (safe working max load)

I got very respectable groups at 200 yards with groups sub one inch at 100 yards.

Cleaning frequency would be every 600+ rounds.

WARNING: Blue dot does not meter very well in a REdding BR-30 powder measure and swings of .5g are normal from powder bridiging.

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Thanks Keith...

I do not use Powder Measurers...

call me old fashion, but I use Lee Dippers and an old 505 beam scale...

simple, and always accurate.....


"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC

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Seafire
Do you have a list of your SR4759 loads
Thanks

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Originally Posted by J71248
Seafire
Do you have a list of your SR4759 loads
Thanks


I did a write up like that for SR 4759 also... however when I had to replace my hard drive in the old Confuser here, they are still MIA... I am still looking for them...

if I find them then I will repost them... also did that for the 22.250, 243, 6mm Rem, 260, 6.5 x 55, 270, 7/08, 7 x 57, 30/06, 300 Win Mag, 338/06, 338 Win Mag, 8 x 57, 30/40 Krag, and the 444 Marlin.. all with SR 4759 and can't locate any of those in the hard drive we transferred this all to, before installing the new hard drive..


"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC

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+1 grin


Best

GWB


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Keith, you are in the ballpark, maybe.
I had best results at 13.8 of Blue Dot loaded to the lands, with IMI military brass.
Have a Blue Dot load for my BR which is 14.4. Someone here whipped me straight after some Fireball problems, the "general rule" seems to be to take your 22 case, fill it up with Blue Dot to the top, then figure 60 percent of that will be maximum under 40s.
All of you who haven't tried Blue Dot, be advised that it's a great load, but it's full-pressure and the difference between "perfect" and "oh, DARN" is pretty small.


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10 grains of BD in the 223 is an absolutely fun plinking load for kids and adults.

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When I shoot my bluedot loads at the range someone always asks why. I tell them about 600 loads per pound and no recoil, faster than a 22 mag and rocks the steel pretty well at 200 yards(50gr bullet w/ 12gr bluedot). Cheap fun.


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Seafire's Blue Dot Data on all calibers should be made a sticky.


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I shoot 14.3g of blue dot with a 40g what ever at 3300 and will not miss ground squirrls...250 yds, they are still in trouble.

A friend went 900 rounds without cleaning.

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I run something a bit more mild. 11.8 grains of Blue Dot under a 40 gr VMax with CCI small pistol primer, runs right at 3000 fps out of my Ruger Compact 223 w/16.5" bbl. Makes a sweet truck gun.


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Whatever floats the boat....Blue Dot is fun stuff.


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Tripped across this, and see its 11 years old..

as always, in between seasons, or when the weather is not cooperating... such as this spring, so much rain which is unusual here in Southern Oregon this time of year... it has left muddy roads on farmers property, and the weeds, grass and alfalfa has been astronomically tall real quick this year...

So with time on my hands, with fuel prices etc....

I have been playing with Blue Dot, Alliant Steel and Unique... using 40, 50, 53 and 55 grain bullets...

with a charge of 11.5 grains with Blue Dot and Alliant Steel, and 10 grains of Unique...

been going to the range 2 or 3 times a week, with 20 rounds loaded up most of the time.. and ringing steel pretty consistently...

at 300 and 400 yds... figure out the trajectory, and its hitting 10 to 13 inch diameter gongs pretty darn consistently...

at 400 yds, cross winds and swirling, gives me some close misses.... but at 300 yds, it is pretty much a hit each time... almost a chip shot..

been using V Maxes, Hornady and Speer SPs, and Sierra and Hornady match bullets...

Helps forget about fuel prices and Biden Screwing up the entire country....

Heck 5 tanks of fuel is the same price as buying a new rifle.... so I'm cutting down on burning up fuel and spending more time around the homestead... either taking care of the lawn almost 7 days a week, rotating mowing the 2 acres or so in sections... each section needs mowed every 3 days with this rain.... and vacation time is a trip over to the range, 3 miles from the house...

and the weather report says pollen is high... and look for showers again tonight...

If I didn't have this as relax time, this world would be driving me nuts....


"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC

“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez

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Hey John, let me bounce something stuff off you.

I use blue dot in the kid's guns for them to shoot and have fun. I'm using CCI 450 mag primers, I have 3 bricks and looking for a way to use them.

In 222 I use 8grs for just over 2000fps with a 50gr sierra... kinda like a 22mag was what I was wanting.

In 223 I use 12gr for about 2500fps and 55gr hndy, my niece has pretty much claimed that gun she likes it so much, so it's hers now.

Granddaughter's 6mm I use 21gr with 90gr bt, she's 10 and shoots it fine.

I have plenty of blue dot.

Anyway, other powders, I have some and just thinking, hmmmm I wonder. I have...

Win 572, listed next to blue dot on the burn chart, 8lbs
Unique, 10lbs
Green dot, 5lbs
Red dot, 4lbs
WSF, 2lbs
HS6, 2lbs
452aa, 18lbs
473aa, 8lbs

The burn rates are within what you are using, do you use those powders because of individual characteristics or would similar burn rate powders give similar results? I'm interested in reduced loads in the 1800 to 2400fps loads, 40 to 55gr bullets, varmint/small game for the grandkids. Also if things went to chit and those powders were all I had could I make a usable load.

I picked up the 452 and 473 last year, loaded 452 in shotshell in the 70s and 80s, forgot how good a powder it was. Been using it in 38spec and 45acp, performs like bullseye/red dot and clean burning. 473 is somewhere around green dot, my old lyman manual has loads for both in 12ga that I circled long ago. I loaded red dot and 452 in 38 and shot them side by side, the 452 was better accuracy wise and very close on velocity, about a half grain under Unique loads.

The way I'm going I'll never use all that 452, or my grandson's life either. I would like to try it in 222 for an 1800 to 2000fps load, basically a 22mag load for my savage 24V. Starting low like 4.5 grs, same as the 45acp, and shooting over a crony.

What do you think?

Kent

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There are several things to consider when trying powders other than BlueDot and Unique. First, these powders are single based, usually meaning easier to ignite and less temperature sensitive. Note that I said less. 452AA and 473AA are double-based powders, more difficult to ignite and more temp sensitive. Second BD and Unique have a lower bulk density than the ball powders do, meaning that for the same charge weight they leave less airspace in the case than the ball powders do. This means that for the same charge weight, 452AA has 35% more airspace than BD. But then you will use less of the ball powder so depending on the charge weight they may occupy even less case volume with even more airspace.

Another consideration is position sensitivity. All powders are position sensitive to varying degrees, some more than others. I’ve used BlueDot in reduced loads for many years, and have demonstrated on the chronograph that both BD (and Unique) are position sensitive at 40-50% loading densities. Meaning, tipping the muzzle up before firing versus tipping it down results in velocity differences between 75 to 125 fps. This isn’t a lot, but it can mean a dangerous difference in max pressure between targeting a “flat” powder charge and shooting at a squirrel in a tree. I have no idea of the position sensitivity of the ball powders.

I’m not saying not to try them, just to be aware that there could be surprises in store. Just because two powders are close together on a burn rate chart doesn’t mean they can fulfill the same roles.




.

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Kent going to send you a PM on this and your questions...


"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC

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Originally Posted by DoubleRadius
There are several things to consider when trying powders other than BlueDot and Unique. First, these powders are single based, usually meaning easier to ignite and less temperature sensitive. Note that I said less. 452AA and 473AA are double-based powders, more difficult to ignite and more temp sensitive. Second BD and Unique have a lower bulk density than the ball powders do, meaning that for the same charge weight they leave less airspace in the case than the ball powders do. This means that for the same charge weight, 452AA has 35% more airspace than BD. But then you will use less of the ball powder so depending on the charge weight they may occupy even less case volume with even more airspace.

Another consideration is position sensitivity. All powders are position sensitive to varying degrees, some more than others. I’ve used BlueDot in reduced loads for many years, and have demonstrated on the chronograph that both BD (and Unique) are position sensitive at 40-50% loading densities. Meaning, tipping the muzzle up before firing versus tipping it down results in velocity differences between 75 to 125 fps. This isn’t a lot, but it can mean a dangerous difference in max pressure between targeting a “flat” powder charge and shooting at a squirrel in a tree. I have no idea of the position sensitivity of the ball powders.

I’m not saying not to try them, just to be aware that there could be surprises in store. Just because two powders are close together on a burn rate chart doesn’t mean they can fulfill the same roles.




.

Thank you for the well written response.

Mostly just thinking out loud, Seafire's post about different powders, thinking about other things than all the crap going on in this country.

My thinking on the 452aa is that it is very close to Bullseye. I know in 12ga you don't have to change anything on the loader and use either powder, at least by volume. 452 has slightly less velocity but not by enough to think about. Both great in the same pistol chamberings. Bullseye is used in cast and reduced rifle loads... just makes me go hmmmm about the 452.

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Anybody get a Blue Dot load to work the action of an AR15?

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Originally Posted by Seafire
Tripped across this, and see its 11 years old..

as always, in between seasons, or when the weather is not cooperating... such as this spring, so much rain which is unusual here in Southern Oregon this time of year... it has left muddy roads on farmers property, and the weeds, grass and alfalfa has been astronomically tall real quick this year...

So with time on my hands, with fuel prices etc....

I have been playing with Blue Dot, Alliant Steel and Unique... using 40, 50, 53 and 55 grain bullets...

with a charge of 11.5 grains with Blue Dot and Alliant Steel, and 10 grains of Unique...

been going to the range 2 or 3 times a week, with 20 rounds loaded up most of the time.. and ringing steel pretty consistently...

at 300 and 400 yds... figure out the trajectory, and its hitting 10 to 13 inch diameter gongs pretty darn consistently...

at 400 yds, cross winds and swirling, gives me some close misses.... but at 300 yds, it is pretty much a hit each time... almost a chip shot..

been using V Maxes, Hornady and Speer SPs, and Sierra and Hornady match bullets...

Helps forget about fuel prices and Biden Screwing up the entire country....

Heck 5 tanks of fuel is the same price as buying a new rifle.... so I'm cutting down on burning up fuel and spending more time around the homestead... either taking care of the lawn almost 7 days a week, rotating mowing the 2 acres or so in sections... each section needs mowed every 3 days with this rain.... and vacation time is a trip over to the range, 3 miles from the house...

and the weather report says pollen is high... and look for showers again tonight...

If I didn't have this as relax time, this world would be driving me nuts....

I saw 10 pounds of blue dot at a new gun shop I went to the other day and thought of you.. ha ha.. They want $35/pound for it. Don't know if that is reasonable, but I figure it would save money. Kind of like buying an EV. ha ha..


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35 sucks but it's AVAILABLE and BD really is economical. Cool, fast bullets. LGS's here are still naked of anything but bullets.

As for AR, I don't think it's possible unless you totally alter the gas system and/or bolt carrier. I tried BD loads in my VM15 and nope, no cycle, and these were firm loads in my bolter. I suspect either the port has to be moved back, or you need to totally "swiss cheeze" the carrier because you are NOT going to get more gas at the right time at the right place in the barrel. BD loads do their work early, which is why the muzzle report is so relatively quiet compared to full-house "real" loads. What makes BD work is, the curve of the pressure is shaped so there's a smooth, high push without spikes, and that curve is affected by overall pressure. There's a sweet spot there, nobody really knows WHY it's there, but it exists and is special.

I have considered buying a carrier and finding a lighter spring to see if it's possible because it would be fun if it worked. But I know you can't make it work by tweaking the load. Good BD loads are "real" loads and you can't ignore physics.

One suggestion, something I've asked Seafire about, is Lil Gun under lightweights in 223. LG is fabulous in the Fireball, makes it act like a 223 in the 40 grain class. "Book" under 40s for Fireball is about 16, I run 15.5. I've THOUGHT about trying 15.5 of LG as a starting number in 223 and working up on a chronograph, but with components so ridiculously scarce, I'm focused on just enjoying the pet loads I already have.


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And it’s not just the pressure at the port - the action also needs enough gas volume to function. Most BD loads use about half the charge weight of “normal” propellants, hence half the gas volume.

I’m not certain if Lil’Gun is a good choice for reduced loads. While it may work great in high density .221 FB loads, similar charge weights in a much larger case may not work so well - or they may. Many ball powders don’t do well at low charge densities.



.

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Originally Posted by Dave_Skinner
35 sucks but it's AVAILABLE and BD really is economical. Cool, fast bullets. LGS's here are still naked of anything but bullets.

As for AR, I don't think it's possible unless you totally alter the gas system and/or bolt carrier. I tried BD loads in my VM15 and nope, no cycle, and these were firm loads in my bolter. I suspect either the port has to be moved back, or you need to totally "swiss cheeze" the carrier because you are NOT going to get more gas at the right time at the right place in the barrel. BD loads do their work early, which is why the muzzle report is so relatively quiet compared to full-house "real" loads. What makes BD work is, the curve of the pressure is shaped so there's a smooth, high push without spikes, and that curve is affected by overall pressure. There's a sweet spot there, nobody really knows WHY it's there, but it exists and is special.

I have considered buying a carrier and finding a lighter spring to see if it's possible because it would be fun if it worked. But I know you can't make it work by tweaking the load. Good BD loads are "real" loads and you can't ignore physics.

One suggestion, something I've asked Seafire about, is Lil Gun under lightweights in 223. LG is fabulous in the Fireball, makes it act like a 223 in the 40 grain class. "Book" under 40s for Fireball is about 16, I run 15.5. I've THOUGHT about trying 15.5 of LG as a starting number in 223 and working up on a chronograph, but with components so ridiculously scarce, I'm focused on just enjoying the pet loads I already have.

I knew John Noveske before he managed to die in a car accident. He lived here in my town.. and was a native of here...

He use to ask me about my Blue Dot loads when we ran into each other at our local range....He modified one of his AR's to be able to run Blue Dot load thru it, where it would cycle the bolt. Those more mechanical than I am versed on that subject could probably figure that out. But he let me fire some of my loads thru the ( at least one guy, he had modified.. although I am sure there were others... he liked the idea.) AR he first modified... and like most things he built, they pretty much always worked...

He set his up for 12.5 grain loads of Blue Dot with a 55 grain Bullet.... 50s, 52s and 53s also worked well with that same 12.5 grain charge...

2600 fps was the MV....Noveske was a good guy... to bad he passed way to young.


"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC

“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez

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Confirms my suspicions. Falkor is here, I wonder if I could sniff around their parts pile, buy a carrier and start drilling. Hmmmm.

Seafire, was the port location modified? Carbine versus rifle, can you remember?


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Seafire Offline OP
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Sorry Dave,

John Noveske has been gone for quite a while now.. and that was done a 4 or 5 years before he was killed in that car accident.


"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC

“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez

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