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Do you have contact info for the guy on Homegunsmith who made the 12ga swaging die for the copper caps? I would like to get my hands on some and possibly have a die made.
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This has been an interesting post. I have been following it on and off since you first posted it. Do you own a shop in Brinton? Just curious because I'm not terribly to far away being In Rockford. It would be cool to see one of these beasts in person.
Keep your powder dry and stay frosty my friends.
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Wow! This has to be one of the longest running threads on the filre -- five and a half years.
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23) Brother Keith
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The guy on there is jtknives. He made dies for 700cal bullet using 1/2" caps.You can PM him. I just have a workshop at my home, for only my stuff, out in country.I do my testing out the back door. One of reasons the research goes on is so many are helping out with ideas and work..Ed
Ed Hubel
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The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr, that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the long barrel NEF. For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block. The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do 35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers, good for 4 shots or more. And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works for various other slugs and shot loads. In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases- 1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400--- and triple ought buckshot load--- 9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed
Ed Hubel
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A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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Those are great pictures.They had some good stuff back then. Please keep those pictures hosted, as I'd like to show them on the other forus, if you can. Remember these from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases.. 3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases. Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU. The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Ed, rarely take pics down as i dont think ive ever come close to the max allowed where ive got them.....if they are down its cause Photobuckets having a glitch at the time, not cause ive taken them down so check again in bit they should show back up....
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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In the early days; in Greener's book he states that rifled, choke bored 12ga paradox shotguns with slugs, heavier powder charges than shot loads, could hold about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds. And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds. And that is with guns with lighter weaker barrels than we have today, so our work in a good extension of what the early big bore guys did...Ed
Last edited by hubel458; 11/03/11.
Ed Hubel
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Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures, above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting. Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926 Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads. Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH .... Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress. 2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain, next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with if ever available.. 3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed
Ed Hubel
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How come this thread is so long if it is only about guns?
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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I think only two things are worth forever running threads- Guns and Boobs... politics a far third place...Ed
Ed Hubel
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Ed, how have you gone with slugs in double barrelled guns? Do any of them shoot acceptably parallel, and are certain formats better? Do you try to regulate them?
If your dad doesn't have a beard, you've got two mums
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Regulating the regular light barreled double shotguns with our faster slug loads, using larger amounts of slower powders, does not work. They have to be loaded slow like shot loads.That's why Rob is mono-blocking in heavy thick barrels on one, in the 12ga FH caliber to get the effect of acting like a heavy barreled double rifle.He should be done this winter. If I do any it will be a heavy barrel o/u 10ga, if I can get one in the future I saw that was heavy enough.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores called the Field I think. Looks like some other side levers, looks like lever works forward. And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8 bores only wider. I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed out to the two bore size. And a square hole for breach block done in that hunk of 4130 steel.The steel block will be cut down for height to the line you see scribed on it, and it is 2.25" wide and 5" long.After the breach bblock hole is in then I drill and thread a hole in the front up toward the top for the barrel. Other experimenting, a while back, when I made my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a 620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design, IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor. Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case. Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one. Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the 585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed
Last edited by hubel458; 11/20/11.
Ed Hubel
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First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle, that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges. Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore, from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case. Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug. last shows the thickness and strength of finished case. Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200 from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759. Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed
Ed Hubel
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Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns. I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use magnum primers. A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239 mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239 Mag primer about a foot of flame. Some more info from the old days, here is picture of a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago. And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed
Ed Hubel
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We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s using easy to get components,cheap, without buying loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all. In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight, About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel. Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a 750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100 10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy. Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock, and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice down to these slugs. And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic and seal on the back and to shoot like aBrenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds. Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed
Ed Hubel
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A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia. First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped. Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base. Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front. Looks like the roll crimp locks against the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a flat meplat slug on the front of the base like the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to have more room for our slower powders.ED
Ed Hubel
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Here is picture of 4 long cases of RIP's on the AR forum. Top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge 3.5" turned brass 20ga. In 20ga getting these and lengthening chambers allows use of the 3.5" 20ga plastic also. Some factory guns are 3.5" Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga. Chambered for these you can use 3.5" 12ga plastic also.Some guns are 3.5" from the factory. 3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass. Bottom a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case. Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove which made it possible to crimp that way.You can see one of those slugs in the picture. Testing 490gr 12ga full bore Lee style slugs in 3.5" plastic at 2200. Works in the long barrel rifled NEF and the Khan 12ga 3.5" auto smooth bore. In same guns the 570gr US-S brass slug with locked on base at 1900 in 3.5" plastic worked also. It is great to see a smoothbore slug like the US-S that is as accurate as fullbore slugs from rifled barrels.Maybe they will be imported soon from European Cartridge.Ed
Ed Hubel
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