Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns '86 miami shootout

The inaccuracies of "gun rag" articles is what has given that perception

Getting shot at with automatic rifle fire, essentially hiding behind toilet paper for protection, sorts out people quickly, college or not.

Exactly

Of course you haven't, because aren't nearly as experienced are knowledgable as you seem to think

They were probably brave men. My wording was probably lacking.

In hindsight, lots of things were done wrong but the whole thing was basically off the charts anyway. How many times are you going to run into two perps with resumes like these two?

Basically you and the FBI are summarizing the thing into a lack of penetration. My contention is that the outcome was a result of poor tactics meeting up with two super-criminals.

I think that the base reason behind the fiasco was that Platt and his bud were INTENT on killing. The FEBBIES were not. One can play all the mind games ya want, but the actual act of killing a man is one of the hardest obstacles to overcome. In any battle,advantage goes to the one who is a killer. The one who has not killed has an obstacle to overcome. How many of you have actually had the man's head sitting on top of the front post and took up the slack in a trigger??? Then squeezed WITHOUT pulling the shot????

Experienced, motivated, determined...

Very true.

Do a search on the NORCO Bank Robbery.

These two dealings had more influence on present day LE training and armament than any other incidences. Today its pretty much folly going up against the police with a few dudes and a bag full of rifles, cause the cops outnumber you and have just as much firepower.

Yes, there is no doubt that a High School Freshman is not gonna kick Senior ass his first Friday night football game.

True.

I disagree. Just a few short years ago in New Jersey,one guy killed several cops. At least 2 in a street battle and and a few more when a SWAT Team made an entry. He was shooting for the kill from the git-go, the Cops had to make the mental transition. He used a shotgun. There is a LOT about mindset that people don't understand or maybe even want to. Cops in general seem to have a disbelief that someone is actually going to do their best to actually KILL them. MOST criminals don't want to kill anybody let alone a cop. The ones who do however actually have the advantage.

I learned a long time ago in a land far away that if someone is intent on killing me I NEED to kill him FIRST!

All I got to say on the matter.

Okay, I'm going to say it. BTW: I agree with you.

I have the complete Dirty Harry series. On one of the DVD is an interview with Eastwood and one of the questions asked was why the .44mag. Eastwood said he and the writers wanted to portrait Dirty Harry as a hunter and the handgun for a hunter was a S&W Model 29 in .44 mag. In all the Dirty Harry movies Harry is a hunter and a killer something a real cop in reality cannot be. Harry survives as well as he does because he is a hunter and a killer. Harry kills first and ask questions later. Again something a real cop in reality cannot do.

I've studied Doc Holiday and why he was such a successful gunfighter compared to his peers. Doc was dying by inches from tuberculosis. Doc was a dead man walking. He didn't care if he was killed in a gun fight as that was preferable to dying by inches. That fact gave Doc an advantage over his peers in a gun fight.

To sum up, a man who is a hunter, a killer, and a dead man walking has an edge over a man who is not a hunter, killer, and wants to live.

Exactly.........It is as simple as that

Exactly. I am no expert nor do I make the pretense. I do know that it takes time to transition from one mindset to another. The more experienced you are, the less time. Also, some individuals have the inherent ability to make the transition more quickly than others. Even in some street confrontation that isn't deadly, it takes some moments to realize what is happening. "You're kidding, right?" I would say that the Miami shootout is a sort of example. Even though the FBI agents knew what was coming, it still took precious moments to process what was happening. Platt and Matix just went for it, balls to the wall.

I don't know as much about the LA shootout.

You're still alive. There's the outcome.

It�s so easy to Monday morning Quarterback that one. But there�s an old saying in boxing. �Everyone has a plan until they get hit. It�s what you do after you get hit that matters.�

Everyone talks about the guns, ammunition, and the FBI�s men; few talk about their opposition. Matix and Platt were highly motivated and well trained. There are many men who have a high level of proficiency at arms, but it�s the first one, highly motivated, that is the key. Not only were Plat and Matix very competent at arms, they were willing to fight to the death and do whatever they have to do to win. That�s an exceptionally rare thing encountered on the street; exceptionally rare.

The agents were well armed, shot pretty damn well under the circumstances, and initially their tactics left much to be desired, but after the first minute of shock was over, the tactics and shooting all became fairly sound. But Platt and Matix were just as competent, possibly more competent at arms. Their tactics were decent, but the more important element was that they were in control of the engagement because they set the tone and terms of the engagement from the beginning.

For law enforcement, their JOB is to show a minimum of force to subdue their adversaries. This means in every encounter they have to rely on their opposition to set the bar, and they must react. Let me repeat that last part�.THEY MUST REACT!

Any application of lethal force by US Law Enforcement by nature must be reactive. In an all out war, this is a HUGE disadvantage! In most cases this is not a problem at all because even most criminals have a certain level of civility and are initially hesitant to cross the line of shooting at a cop. For those who do shoot at a cop, typically it�s in an effort to retreat and escape.

When the FBI opened the dance that day, Platt and Matix from the get go were 100% focused on killing their adversaries. The FBI suspected that Platt and Matix �could have� been capable of that, but truly they didn�t really know what their response would be. Such opposition is a very rare exception, never the rule. Therefore it�s very difficult for an cop to understand that�s what he�s getting into, because to take such a mindset will most likely get a cop into some bad trouble.

The FBI agents that were involved in that incident did a good job that day, not a perfect job, but a good job. That incident cost the life two excellent agents, and the limbs of others; but has saved countless numbers of Law Enforcement officers worldwide in the lessons that were learned.

Those agents walked into a hornet�s nest, and have been judged every single day since.

I don't disagree about the mentality part of it at all, nor the disbelief of cops that some people WILL kill them. That's kinda the point made by the Dade County shootout; mentally ready or not, the police have still been trained and equipped better to deal with similar issues. They even get hours of "mindset" training to go along with it. (I'm sure you've had the pleasure of sitting through those classes).

the reason I started this thread was to get the final answer on 9mm vs 40 S&W, it looks to me like the handgun cartridges of choice had little effect on the the outcome and if the 40 has been used probably wouldn't have even mattered. but double stack mags in say a full size glock would have made a big difference.

it was a different time back then and reliable semi autos were just coming on the market. yeah the 1911 was reliable at that time but only with ball ammo and as a result never caught on with LE agencies. the real problem like everyone is saying is rifle fire against pistol fire.