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Interesting. The mare is intensely speed-bred. Old foundation speed. I don't know what your main uses for her happen to be, but she is not bred to be a trail horse. Now, she could be one and a good one, if she had been started right and was well-broke and seasoned at her age. But there is a lot more TB in her than the papers indicate. Rocket Bar and Go Man Go were great runners and registered as Quarter Horses but were primarily TB. The best line we've produced came from a Rocket Bar/ Go Man Go base. From what I've seen, the mare is bred to run but not bred well enough to be on the track. The Tonis Rocket horse is really bred to run. The Libertys Miracle line is distance TB blood, as compared to sprinting TB blood, but there are tons of running TB in her background.
So, here's what I'd do. First, if you haven't already, I would ask my vet if the fistula is chronic. She might have chronic pain. Dollar to doughnuts that the original fistula came from a saddle. Not yours, evidently, but a saddle nonetheless.
If she is not in pain she certainly has memories of pain and she has the athletic ability and heart to express her displeasure. TBs like wide open spaces. I've rode a couple that I claimed off the track that were scared to death of cows. Nothing you did could get them over it. Their instinct is to run. They run from their fears, they run for fun, they run out of anger. Your mare seems to have a little more fight in her than that.
If I thought I was going to ride her I would pay close attention to how she is padded. I'd put her in a short-ported curb bit. I'd make sure I had a good twist on my stirrup leathers. And I'd make her lope big circles in soft ground, going both directions.
If I was certain she was going to buck I would get a good partner on a gentle, stout gelding, put a halter on the mare and have him snub me up really close. But, she would have to show me a lot of potential to start retraining her as a spoiled bronc. We raise horses like her out of the Oswald bloodline. They make great saddle horses on a big, rough-country ranch but you have to trot them about four miles just to make them break a sweat and take the edge off. Your mare is bred to be fast and tough.

You are right on about that, after the long layoff I would ease her back with little 4 hour straight through rides. hardly broke a sweat, no fast breathing. Buddy said when she was in gardiner she blew through 2-3 foot snow for long distances without breaking stride. I like to go on 7-8 hour trail rides in hilly country and thought she would fit the ticket.

Pat, my last diagnosis, and its worth every dime you're paying for it, is that the mare is bored. An eight-hour trail ride for her is just a warm-up and it doesn't allow her to express her genetic impulse. The Oswald line -- and they are truly a line as they've been line-bred for sixty years -- is very similar. You can read about them on my website, www.johnlmoore.com. Go to the "Ranch" page and from there to the "Horses" page. Good luck, and again, let me know how things turn out.

Hell of an interesting thread--makes up for all of the other BS that we sometimes elect to wade through...

Well, I didn't imagine anyone else would be following this thread, so let me explain a couple things in greater detail. I had an uncle on my mother's side who was a long-time outfitter out of Red Lodge, Montana. His pack string consisted of both horses and mules but the mules did most of the packing and the horses were ridden by dudes or hunters. His choice for a horse would never have been a speed-bred TB. He used grade (unregistered) horses of mixed breeding. Appaloosas were common then. They were tough but could be mule-like in their dispositions. A good trail horse needs to be bomb-proof so you want horses of colder blood.
An Appendix horse is a Quarter Horse with too much TB blood for permanent papers. If you cross a permanent (white-papered) AQHA stallion on an Appendix mare the foal can only be registered as Appendix. That status can be upgraded should the horse receive a Register of Merit in one of a number of performance events. If you cross an Appendix stallion on a papered mare the foal will receive permanent papers. At least, that's the way it was the last time I looked but the AQHA changes rules on a regular basis. I think one thing those rules indicate is the influence the mare has on a breeding program. Some say this is because of mitochondrial DNA, which is simply to say good mares are more important than good sires. Sadly, most people buy common mares and drag them to expensive stallions and then are disappointed with the results.
Colts are started too early in today's world. A horse really shouldn't be rode much until they are three years old and some people are getting on them as long yearlings trying to get them ready to compete in futurities as two-year-olds. With horses like Pat's mare we don't know when she was started or how she was started. So if you are buying a green broke horse with some age you're purchasing a mystery. There is ALWAYS a reason that a horse is still green broke at that age. Too often the reason is not a good one.
A horse's mind does not fully mature until they are seven years old so colts should not only not be forced to do too much for physical reasons but also for mental reasons. It is one thing to make a horse do something; it is altogether something else to show a horse how to want to do something. Years ago geldings were never broke until they were four, five, or six years of age. At that age they were tough enough to take the riding and mentally mature enough to learn.
A horse's memory is elephant-like and what they remember most is what hurt them.
All horses have a "fight or flight" reflex but that differs widely. A horse bred to run is almost always a "flight" horse and they are also very protective of their own legs. They hate doing things that put themselves at risk for a leg injury. Again, this is why they do not make good trail horses. To a flight horse, crossing deadfall or even old logs is like stepping through a minefield. They are convinced they will be crippled and if crippled unable to runaway from the bear, lion, or wolf they imagine is waiting around the next turn in the trail.
My horses are badlands and prairie ranch horses. I would be very reluctant to take them into the mountains, especially into dark timber. Conversely, I have seen mountain horses that were scared to death of wide-open spaces. I'm sure people will say they have Appendix or TB horses that are great trail horses and I don't dispute that. There are always exceptions to the rule and the main things is how and when they were started and trained. Plus, even within breeds and lines, horses have their own individual personalities and phenotypes. I have ridden full brothers that looked and acted totally different. I've had a couple of Appendix horses I would have trusted anywhere, including the mountains, and we have all seen pack string trail horses we wanted to shoot for our own satisfaction.

Mtrancher. There are a lot of us that follow these threads and we certainly appreciate folks like you giving us some additioanl insight. They are usually a lot more informative and not so argumentative when compared to the usual run if the mill threads on the other parts of this site.

The only thing I might comment on is the sentance about the appalosa might have a mule like disposition. Being a mule man for 30 years,( breeding, raising,training)I find a lot of horse men do not understand mules and that is why they get in trouble.( not saying you do or don't). All you say about horse training is double for mules, and it seems the younger the horseman,the more trouble they get into.I guess it is the fact that as we mature,we begin to understand more about a horse's ( or mule's) mind rather than paying more attention to it's body.

Like the horse not wanting to go across deadfalls for fear of crippling, a mule won't go thru or get into predicaments that might hurt it. Although you do get some runners ( undoubtedly from breeding),mules usually stand to fight.ie, they might spin on you,but usually turn around to face what spooked them. This comes from the evolution of donkeys being mostly prevalent in rough country where they had to stand to fight as there was not flat enough counytry to run away in.

The breeding of mules is all the more important from all you have stated about the breeding of horses.Both the good and bad attributes of each breed is personified in the mule due to the hybrid nature of the beast.
There are some good warm blood bred mules out there,but few and far more good mules out of the QH or such breeding. Darn Arabians mules will give a person fits and I don't think they mature mentaly until 9 or so.
I have bred some halflinger mules and still have one,but that little bit of arabian blood infused in the halflingers way back still rears it's head every once in a while.

All these critters are specifically bred to do certain tasks better than others but a lot of times peopele forget that and choose a breeding that is better at something else than what they intend to use it for.That could mean the animals disposition or it's confirmation.I see a lot of folks trying to make good saddle mules out of mules that would do better in harness and vice -versa.

Again, thanks for all your input. Much appreciated.I'd read it al day long.

Me, too!

Well thank you, I learned an awful lot about what I have and what approach to take to deal with this problem, a problem that I think can be corrected. If I can get her back to the point where I and riders with more experience can mount and ride with out any bucking and rearing fits I will be happy. I can deal with the spooking once in a while. She is an enjoyable horse to ride when her mind on the task at hand.

Saddlesore, I've long known that most mules are more intelligent than their masters, hence, I have restrained myself from testing myself against them. (BTW, my daughter, her husband and three of my grandchildren live in Colorado Springs.)

Pat, I just thought of a bad case where I sold a beautiful appendix mare to a good friend of mine, a lady rancher whose place is in the mountains. She rode Morgans and Morgan-crosses, but she bought this mare from me because she liked his full brother when she rode him here at my place. The mare was a disaster. She shied at everything, throwing this gal once and hurting her neck. I will always feel bad about it.

My sister has a registered Paint, all cutting and reining bred, that is shying when he is not working cattle. If working cattle, he's all business. These little "wind-up toys" kind of horses are too intensely bred. They cannot handle idleness.

Sometimes a horse that shies has an eye problem. They're seeing things, like shadows, that only exist on the surface of their eyes or because of limited vision. One trainer who has showed cutting and reining horses at the highest level, says some horse shy at the shadow of their own eyelashes, so he trims the eye lashes. He's a good friend of mine, but I don't know if it's true. Another good friend, who lived and traveled with Ray Hunt, says its baloney. That's the horse world!

Recreational riders often buy the surplus from popular breeding programs that follow the fads of the horse industry. In the Quarter Horse world the current fad is barrel racing. Consequently, those who breed for fads are turning out high strung, quick, reactionary horses. The ones that cannot compete will filter down into the general market and some will be purchased by people looking for a weekend trail horse. There will be some bad wrecks in this scenario. Barrel horses I know something about. My sister and I trained them when we were kids and she went on to the College National Finals. I have a good friend who trains them now for a very high-dollar horse ranch where the barrel horses sell for $30,000 to $300,000. The prospect of taking a spoiled barrel horse and trying to turn it into a mountain trail horse is absurd, but you can bet it will be tried many times over.

Pat-

When you are mounted in the saddle, how many fingers fit between the pommel and the withers?

True enough, but not doing that at all is part of the problem with horses that do nothing but arena work, IMO.

Yup, You got a bunch following this thread. Love reading what is written here.

Can't really say cause I never checked. When I saddle up I try to maintain at least two finger gap and pull up the saddle pad away from the withers. The last ride I took a neopreme pad and cut out a horseshoe around the wither area and padded on top with a felt pad so there was no pressure within two inches of the infected area. The infection was on the right hand side, I would saddle up, put my fingers on the wound area, have the back of my hand against the saddle and hang on the saddle horn, with all my 200 lbs. and she would just stand there and look at me.

I always find these horse (even mule) threads interesting. You can't know too much about them. There can be such subtle differences between critters you might think are alike.
I once went into the mountains with a guy using his horses. I had my own tack and just saddled and bridled up and off we went. About six trouble free hours later we took a break and my friend noticed I had a one ear bridle on him. He said "Why did you use that? He won't tolerate anything but a full headstall. I said "Good thing I didn't know that six hours ago." The rest of the day was trouble free as well. I have a theory but it's not important now.

It seems we're on the same track!

Every one is a situation.

Had the privledge of meeting a rancher in the Madison valley who still prefers to do it this way. If you don't have the time two work with them till they mature you accomplished nothing he claims. Your killing two birds with one stone when you wait, you train your horse and get your work done all in one trip on the range.

One thing a horse like this will do that my two made geldings wont, make you a better horseman . You learn real quick to sit proper in the saddle and maintain balance at all times like you are supposed to.

I know squat about horses and mules. But for reasons unknown I find this immensely interesting. Thanks.

For eight years I wrote the back-page column for Buckmaster's GunHunter and the managing editor was Russell Thornberry who had written a book of humor on his lifetime of hunting, guiding, and outfitting. Russell had a particular hatred for horses so I dedicated one column to the horse's point of view and what it was like to be ridden by someone like Russell (who is a great guy, by the way). One thing I pointed out is how people who do not know horses like to "pat" them. Horses hate to be patted. It's an aggressive action to them. Horses love to be scratched and rubbed, but don't pat them.
Also, for you trail riders and hunters who often sit all day in a saddle and then have to climb a mountain, look into a pair of Crooked Stirrups. They will help prevent knee and ankle pain.
In today's world both our children and our horses are suffering from over-specialization. Too many young people have to dedicate themselves to one sport in order to be competitive and possibly receive a scholarship. Horses are way too specialized in today's breeding and training programs. The one exception is the true ranch horse but there are fewer and fewer ranchers breeding them.
There are approximately 10,000,000 horses in the United States compared to about 3,000,000 in 1960 when horses were used more. So, the vast majority of the horses are used for limited recreation and many are not used at all. They simply stand around in back lots bored to death (horses thrive on meaningful work). Hence, a new term: "Pasture Ornaments."