Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Buckshot for home defense

Some favor birdshot I know for its lack of penetrating qualities through drywall and effectiveness at typical self-defense ranges. I have read somewhere years ago of a mainimg facial injury caused by the justified use of said shot that later went bad in court, largely due to the horrific injuries inflicted upon the would be perpetrator.

Prob'ly I'll stick with buck, and likely in the standard-length shell configurations (might be someone else besides me firing the shotgun).

A couple of questions.

1) What do most Police Agencies use in their shotguns?

2) What are the pros and cons concerning smaller ( ex. no 3 buck .25 cal) versus larger (OOO buck .36 cal) buck.

3) Would you recommend the same buckshot size in a twelve gauge and a twenty?

Thanks,
Birdwatcher

I use #4 buckshot in the 12 gauge. If I lived in colder climates (heavier clothing) I would probably up it. In Florida I figure the bad guy will be lightly dressed.

# 4 buck ditto's.....................Ya hafta AIM..

Good eval, on penetration myths :

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

This was posted/ put up not long ago.....I found it to be doggone interestin'.

GTC

I use #1 or BB in both 12 & 20 as well as having a coule of Breneke slugs handy, at SD ranges it is just dandy for 2 and 4 legged varmits..
The penetration myth is just that, a MYTH, at inside house ranges even bird shot will go through two rooms of drywall. That info is from actual testing by myself and a coupl of other deputies in abandoned homes of Florida construction.
Our Department uses 00 Buck for tactical and BB for taking doors FWIW

I think we used 00 in the shotguns we used for weapon's security stuff in the Navy (Remington pumps, 18" or so barrels)

We did in the Army.

When I use my Benelli Nova for this purpose, I fill it with Federal 2.75" 00 buck loads. It is unlikely, but definitely possible here in Vancouver, due to a serious, violent home invasion problem, that I might have to shoot an intruder and I want to make sure he goes down permanently, heavy jacket or not.

I actually prefer either my GP-100 sts. 4" with 158 HPs or my pre-safety Marlin 1894CS with the same ammo for this work. I have used the GP to chase an intruder out, but, have not had to shoot one (yet) and hhope I never do. BUT, I will if I have to!

Buckshot of any size will penetrate a large hog at ranges of 25 yards or less on a broadside shot, and it will also penetrate exterior walls, gauge is irrelevant. Birdshot will penetrate windows but it will not penetrate exterior walls. I killed a hog with #8 shot at 10 yards, it worked just dandy. I also know a guy that killed a deer with the same load, the range was about 10'. In any case, if you think the lawsuit issue is important with a wounded perp, how about trying on one from the survivors of an innocent bystander or neighbor. Frankly I'm at a loss to understand how one could survive a facial shot from birdshot in a home interior shot unless the house is quite large...or maybe they used #12 shot. Accepting advice without introspection is a fool's game. Personally I've not lived in a home where #6-8 shot would have a pattern much more than 6-12" in diameter before hitting the farthest wall, and I've not met a fellow that's going to survive something like that. Only points I'd make in closing; I'd prefer to face a civil trial than attend a funeral of a loved one. You do have to put the shot on target, regardless of what you use. You have to make your own choices about self defense, and they should be tailored to your circumstance; you're either a survivor or food for the gremlins in my opinion. The BS that follows is a different issue.

My dysfunctional neighbor's son failed to kill himself at obviously point blank range with a shotgun. I talked to him over the fence a few years back and he's ugly but not as much as you might think after what he tried to do. He is missing some teeth....

I didn't think it'd be polite to discuss his choice of ammo, although I was contemplating it.

A ex-workmate's Son who is DEA, Rio Grande area, described a load they use as being a combo, small slug/#4 buck in a 3.5" 12 gauge shell. Anyone know more about this load?

Old Toot

I live in the country and anything that will go entirely through the house and still find the bad guy(s) gets my attention and approval.

Crossfireoops, Partner that is a very interesting site, thank you for posting it. -- no

And you call yourself a school teacher! A couple means two <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The deputies around here use 00

Pro for larger more shock, bigger holes Con easier to miss with and yes it can be done.

Moot, I don't think factory 20 gauge is made in but one size but I could be wrong.


BCR

Be careful with this one..............It's not about minimizing penetration factors.................in point of fact, quite the opposite.

* Peel back, and open the crimp on a hot , high brass 12ga. load, dump the shot charge. It should be a load functional, and safe, in your shotgun.

* find a clean grade 8, or Fedalloy, or " Cat" bolt....... 3/8'X1'' long ( no, the thread picth don't matter) Spin it up in a drill, against a file, or if you"ve got a lathe bettter yet. You want to knock the edges off the hex head, that's all, until the outer radius of the head will allow a true slip fit , into the shot cup. You'll have to play around with the correct volume of material, to allow the end of the threaded shank to contact the inner base of the cup. In another way of putting it, the bolt will rest in the shot cup , head foward.
* The " buffer".......if you're lacking off the shelf buffer, be creative, but try to keep the weight of the buffer material light. ( Dried coffee grounds, for example).

* I used P-Tex ski wax, to seal some, but in a pinch, candle wax would probably do.This is about locking up, and stablizing the bolt, in a co-axed fashion. One idiot used hot glue, and blew up his barrel......stick with a wax. We don't want to spike pressures, and the bolt is going to cop some serious velocity, as it's a mite liighter than the original shot charge.

This load will shatter, and completely penetrate Mag wheels, small engine blocks, and don't even know a car door is there.

No , they are not as accurate as your best rifled slug load. Since we were discussing over-penetration, I thought it would be interesting to discuss from a reverse engineering standpoint.

Hits on ferous materials, in low light conditions, produce a gratifying cloud of sparks.





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I'd be worried about birdshot's ability to penetrate the La-Z-Boy the bad guy is using for cover. I've switched up to slugs myself.

I've gone to 000 myself. What STARTS in a home may not STAY there, at least not for long. It's just me and the wife now, and penetrating walls isn't an issue in my setup, though.

Rule #1 of a gunfight is just to "Have a gun," and details aren't likely to have much effect on many situations in actual practice. Most bad guys would flee from blanks. You just can't COUNT on that, and that's why I think something a little heavier than birdshot is the best choice for my setup. Others may have different needs and considerations, and should act accordingly as they think may be interested.

From age 9, my son had a loaded gun in his own room, so in a house breakin situation, I'm sure he'd have joined in if necessary. I had a very mature kid, though, and he was trained right - not everyman's situation in every case, I know, so everyone HAS to answer this question themselves according to their needs and circumstances.

Gentlemen, thank you for the replies. I think all of us are on the same page on this, and would agree with rule number one above, beyond that "you pays your money and you takes your chances".

Browsing around, and looking at the provided link, I came across a few accounts of birdshot infliciting nasty but shallow wounds even at self-defense ranges, and I expect it would still go into the next room if I missed in my house. The incident I am recalling about a miscreant being maimed by birdshot might have come from the writings of Ayoob, certainly I read it in a gun rag somewhere. I suppose it could happen even inside the same room if the shot was a near miss, a glancing blow past the ear for example.

Which leaves us with buck. I dunno the ballistics but it seems, as Dan suggests, that even no 4 buck (.24 cal) would penetrate sufficiently to be effective. Perhaps without going all the way through the neighbor's house down the street, as a slug well might.

The folks at firearmstactical present a reasoned case for the use of no 1 buck in 12 gauge and no 2 buck in 20 gauge for home defense... http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

I dunno but I suspect the official folks with shotguns in New Oleans were using slugs in those pumps recently so as to be able to reply to "snipers" if such were necessary, as well as to target miscreants in close proximity to the innocent, again if such were necessary.

FWIW, I'm now leaning towards 00 buck in 12 gauge. Durned if you do and durned if you don't I guess but the collective experience of law enforcement and the armed services prob'ly counts for something.

It turns out that 20 gauge is available in nos. two three and four. In the twenty I'm leaning towards no 3, if only because that is the load most retail outlets around here offer.

Kutenay... I too have a .357 levergun, and for my own part it would be the first thing I'd grab out of the safe for myself to repel boarders, loaded with 158 grain hollow or softpoints.

I found 200 grain hard-cast lead flatnose .357 Cor-bon rounds today, a loading I didn't think anyone offered anymore. This was especially of interest to me on account of this would be my preferred "bear-in-the-tent" and "angry hog up close" load out of my 3" Mod 60.

Birdwatcher

Interesting link BW, one section bears review at least.



At close range shot charges acts as a unit, not as individual pellets, therefore the comments about sectional density hold little merit. The average thickness of a human torso is about 9", sternum to spine, so I must ask at what point is a 6" wound cavity going to be insufficient? Assuming that 6" is all you get, which I do not. The hog I mentioned in my previous post had thru and thru wounds in the chest cavity. In any case, I strongly believe that smaller sizes of buck shot are more effective than larger due to pattern quality, and number of wounds. A few holes may inflict only cardiovascular damage, many will likely do that as well as neural path damage. A standard 2-3/4" load of #3 buck in a 20 ga. has slain a great many hogs in my hands, it is a surely fatal load for most any "game" you are likely to encounter in North America, regardless of leg count.

Well, good luck regardless, that meaning I hope you never have to test any of these thoughts.

Thanks for the thought, and for the testimony to the effectiveness of standard no 3. in a twenty. That very load having been my load of choice on numerous occasions in places where a handgun would have been illegal.

Birdwatcher

Cross,

Cool link. I saw a live demonstartion similar to the link this past spring. A gent from Armor Holdings had a IIIA Protech vest with exo(plastic) lining for display.

He started with some common loads in 9mm and 45. The vest stopped em like they were supposed to. He then used 9mm "smart or IQ" rounds and gecko rounds. Both penetrated the vest. IIRC the smart rounds were steel and the geckos were like 65gr and kicking around 1500 fps. Scared the crap outta me.

He shot the same vest with a rifled slug and hooboy. The slug tore right through the vest and dented the clay like it was hit by a Mack truck.

Sorry, a bit off topic. For my home defense, it'd be buckshot - not birdshot. Slugs may be a bit much if ya got neighbors close by.



Mac