RufusG - Dispite your opinins, most 9mm's are NOT designed with +P in mind but have been upgraded to accomodate.
How do you know? Do you know the design margin of every 9mm ever and how that compares with the 10% difference between standard and +P? (I don't know what the margin is either but I'll bet an awful lot it's waaay over 10%, and considering what proof loads come in at, we both know that's true.) What design changes were made to the Smith 9mms to accomodate +P?
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
I HAVE seen 9mm handguns damaged from 9mm +P's. The cracked slides on Beretta's were all due to NATO pressure 9mm which is a pressure standard that came along after the Beretta 92 series were designed and engineered. Some guns shrug it off with no problems at all, some don't fare so well.
I'd be interested in hearing the specifics of the damaged guns in your experience. My recollection with the Berettas' cracked slides is that it was +P+ subgun ammo but I'm not going to look it up.
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
Regardless, ALL guns will have accelerated wear with +P vs. standard pressure; that's just plain physics.
Plain physics doesn't help the OP's original question. Until you or Eremicus can quantify the "accelerated wear" it's just a bunch of nervous nellies announcing the sky is falling. Do you honestly believe a couple hundred rounds of +P to verify function is going to damage any quality modern handgun?
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
As to whether 90fps means something, I guess you and I disagree on that one. I've never seen the man or beast that 90fps made the difference.
Have you seen any case where 90 more fps hurt? Hey, just get a 380. It's close enough to a 9mm that no one will notice.
I wouldn't worry about +P in any modern service style auto or their compact derivatives. Few us us shoot any one gun enough to actually wear it out and if we do, who cares, we got our money's worth.
"The Ruger P-Series pistols are compatible with all factory ammunition loaded to U.S. Industry Standards, including high-velocity and hollow-point loads, loaded in brass, aluminum, or steel cartridge cases. No 9mm x 19 ammunition manufactured in accordance with NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP standards is known to be beyond the design limits or known not to function in these pistols."
I wouldn't worry about +P in any modern service style auto or their compact derivatives. Few us us shoot any one gun enough to actually wear it out and if we do, who cares, we got our money's worth.
Not only that, but few of us will spend the extra money for +P ammo just for practice.
I was a Rep for Winchester LE Ammuntion a few years ago and we used 9mm +P+ in a variety of handguns to test our bullets against our competitors. We shot into ballistic gel. Our test gel consisted of dried animal fat that we mixed with water and then cooled to a certain temp. I had 55 gal barrels of the stuff in my garage.
Shooting into plain gel, into heavy denim cloth wrapped over gel, shooting through boards into gel and then shooting through auto glass into gel. +P+ ammo made a very significant difference.
Compared to regular 9mm ammo. +P+ not only penetrated further it left larger gel wound channels in each test medium.
Our main firearm for testing 9mm ammo was the Beretta 92. We never had a failure with it or saw any undue wear with it or any other pistol we used when using +P and we shot a LOT of rounds! Thousands.
But, not to say it won't cause damage either..........things can and do go wrong.
I use it, +P+, now in my personal pistol, not for practice but for when and if I have to "use" it. I want the best ammo I can shoot.
But, from where do we mere mortals GET that stuff?
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My hobby is taking apart guns to look at the design, overloading them, and modifying them. I have been doing this for while, but to 9mm handguns for only ~ 13 years. I try to be an engineer about it, and not a consumer following instructions.
You can't hurt any 9mm I ever tested with pressure. +P is 5% extra powder and most all production 9mms will take 50% extra on non peaky powder, just fine. Avoid AA#5, HS-6, and 3N37 in 9mm overloads. Power Pistol is best, and can get close to double loads.
But you CAN hurt a 9mm with recoil and hurt your hand too. The chamber walls are thick enough and the case support is a .18" to deal with pressure, but the slides are too light, typically about a pound. It would take a very heavy slide to deal with the recoil as well as the barrel deals with the pressure.
If I put 48 pound recoil spring assemblies in a Glock 19 to deal with hot loads recoil, that is a drop in the bucket for dealing with the recoil 9mms are capable of delivering with hot loads. And the slide will accelerate forward so fast, the chamber will come up empty with stock magazine springs. The slide is just too light to deal with hot loads.
So with 50% extra powder the slide is slamming into the frame like a hammer, and that shock is not doing the slide any good, not doing the frame any good, not doing the nerves in your hand any good, and not doing the joints in your hand any good. When the recoil from a semi auto is transferred through the recoil spring [slow], there is less stress to the hand than with a revolver [fast]. But the part of the recoil energy that is transferred with the slide slam shock is much more stressful [even faster] than a revolver. The faster the slide slams into the frame, the more shock energy is transferred.
Also there is the possibility of getting a flinch.
How much does a 9mm cost? $300 ~ $800? If one of those wore out every year you wouldn't even notice it.
But your hand is something else.
I believe in matching the ammo to the recoil spring or match the recoil spring to the ammo. It the cases land 5 feet away there is plenty of recoil to avoid stove pipe jams and not so much recoil that the slide hits the frame.
Of course some stock 9mm springs and some factory ammo is going to slam the slide into the frame, a little. Those with massive hands needs less powder than those with low mass hands. So the industry is set up for consumers, and they error on the side of a little slide slam rather than a little stove pipe jamming.
What does it all mean? If you want to shoot +P+ in a 9mm, consider changing springs. Wolff may sell a stiffer spring for you pistol: http://www.gunsprings.com/
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
What does it all mean? If you want to shoot +P+ in a 9mm, consider changing springs. Wolff may sell a stiffer spring for you pistol: http://www.gunsprings.com/
I'm not disagreeing with you but,
Does that include the thousands of PD's across America that buy +P ammo for their Glocks? These PD's spend millions of $$$ on ammo contracts and feed their LEO's this stuff.
Again, fwiw, In testing all sorts of ammo, Speer Gold Dot was one of the best.
How do you know? Do you know the design margin of every 9mm ever and how that compares with the 10% difference between standard and +P?
Well I know by observation. No I don�t know what the design margin is for every 9mm, but it�s not about margin, it�s about being built to spec. Every gun has a �safety� margin built in, but not necessarily a cartridge SAAMI pressure margin, because there is no way to know if anyone is going to change that spec. In fact, it's HIGHLY unlikely (back then, not so much now). SAAMI is a very conservative organization and they rarely if ever make changes upward, but they do change downward from time to time. So the change from SAAMI 9mm to NATO 9mm was something that was unforeseen in arms designed prior to around 1980.
So understanding that a manufacturer will have his metallurgist make a metal/manufacturing/tempering specification with a given cartridge in mind. And from there, they determine a minimum lifespan acceptable for the firearm in question. Those assumptions are based on the SAAMI specifications. A given manufacturer may or may not design in additional strength. To assume that everyone did just doesn�t meet with reality.
Originally Posted by RufusG
(I don't know what the margin is either but I'll bet an awful lot it's waaay over 10%, and considering what proof loads come in at, we both know that's true.) What design changes were made to the Smith 9mms to accomodate +P?
3rd generation S&W autos were designed AFTER the creation of a NATO spec, and accommodate accordingly.
Originally Posted by RufusG
I'd be interested in hearing the specifics of the damaged guns in your experience. My recollection with the Berettas' cracked slides is that it was +P+ subgun ammo but I'm not going to look it up.
Read up, the Beretta sub-gun cracked slides were not about sub-gun ammo, but NATO pressure ammunition. Like I said, the 92 series guns were designed for SAAMI pressure ammo, not NATO pressure ammo. As for specifics, my experience relates to Browning Hi Powers with set-back lugs. In many NATO armories Hi Powers have served for DECADES with little problems. As soon as the UK started using their +P ammo (which would later become the NATO spec) HI Power�s with broken slides and ruined frames became common place. Again, the metallurgical specification of the gun was for an ammo specification very close to SAAMI spec, which is why the Hi Power (which had a history of tremendous longevity before) began having issues.
Originally Posted by RufusG
Plain physics doesn't help the OP's original question. Until you or Eremicus can quantify the "accelerated wear" it's just a bunch of nervous nellies announcing the sky is falling.
Well do some research on Hi Powers and Beretta�s and that quantifies it. Whether you accept it or reject it is up to you.
Originally Posted by RufusG
Do you honestly believe a couple hundred rounds of +P to verify function is going to damage any quality modern handgun?
Depends on your definition of �modern�. A brand new Browning Hi Power could still sustain damage. This is mostly because FN just plain refuses to sufficiently upgrade the Hi Power because they desperately want to discontinue production. There are many post-WWII 9mm pistols that can be damaged by +P ammunition. Most will survive a few hundred rounds just fine, but some wont.
Originally Posted by RufusG
Have you seen any case where 90 more fps hurt? Hey, just get a 380. It's close enough to a 9mm that no one will notice.
That 90fps comes at increased recoil, muzzle flash, noise and, in some cases, reliability of the gun (all depends on the gun). It also can mean less penetration. Consider that most +P loadings of 9mm are to the lighter bullets (115-124 grain), which are a bit borderline for penetration to begin with (depending on your needs), so perhaps it could hurt. The extra velocity should increase expansion which could help. It�s at the cost of penetration, which could hurt�I don�t know it makes much of a difference, just laying out the big picture. The supposition is that +P is somehow �better�. Well if the only thing you look at is bullet expansion then it is �better.� I tend to look at how something like +P changes the whole picture, not just expansion. My conclusion is that it�s really not �better�.
In the case of the military, NATO determined it was �better� because the increased bullet weight and velocity made for better barrier and soft body armor penetration. In the case of nations using older firearms, they were willing to accept the �better� performance for penetration vs. the significantly increased wear to their pistols.
What does it all mean? If you want to shoot +P+ in a 9mm, consider changing springs. Wolff may sell a stiffer spring for you pistol: http://www.gunsprings.com/
I'm not disagreeing with you but,
Does that include the thousands of PD's across America that buy +P ammo for their Glocks? These PD's spend millions of $$$ on ammo contracts and feed their LEO's this stuff.
Again, fwiw, In testing all sorts of ammo, Speer Gold Dot was one of the best.
Someone once challenged Joe Waldron, pro gun debater, about his carrying 9mm +P ammo. He said, ~ If Clark still has all his fingers with HIS loads, I am ok with +P.~
He is a great public speaker:
Every time I see him, he wants to count my fingers. He knows thousands of people, and yet can have and remember little personal jokes with them.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
How do you know? Do you know the design margin of every 9mm ever and how that compares with the 10% difference between standard and +P?
Well I know by observation. No I don’t know what the design margin is for every 9mm, but it’s not about margin, it’s about being built to spec. Every gun has a “safety” margin built in, but not necessarily a cartridge SAAMI pressure margin, because there is no way to know if anyone is going to change that spec. In fact, it's HIGHLY unlikely (back then, not so much now). SAAMI is a very conservative organization and they rarely if ever make changes upward, but they do change downward from time to time. So the change from SAAMI 9mm to NATO 9mm was something that was unforeseen in arms designed prior to around 1980.
So understanding that a manufacturer will have his metallurgist make a metal/manufacturing/tempering specification with a given cartridge in mind. And from there, they determine a minimum lifespan acceptable for the firearm in question. Those assumptions are based on the SAAMI specifications. A given manufacturer may or may not design in additional strength. To assume that everyone did just doesn’t meet with reality.
Originally Posted by RufusG
(I don't know what the margin is either but I'll bet an awful lot it's waaay over 10%, and considering what proof loads come in at, we both know that's true.) What design changes were made to the Smith 9mms to accomodate +P?
3rd generation S&W autos were designed AFTER the creation of a NATO spec, and accommodate accordingly.
Originally Posted by RufusG
I'd be interested in hearing the specifics of the damaged guns in your experience. My recollection with the Berettas' cracked slides is that it was +P+ subgun ammo but I'm not going to look it up.
Read up, the Beretta sub-gun cracked slides were not about sub-gun ammo, but NATO pressure ammunition. Like I said, the 92 series guns were designed for SAAMI pressure ammo, not NATO pressure ammo. As for specifics, my experience relates to Browning Hi Powers with set-back lugs. In many NATO armories Hi Powers have served for DECADES with little problems. As soon as the UK started using their +P ammo (which would later become the NATO spec) HI Power’s with broken slides and ruined frames became common place. Again, the metallurgical specification of the gun was for an ammo specification very close to SAAMI spec, which is why the Hi Power (which had a history of tremendous longevity before) began having issues.
Originally Posted by RufusG
Plain physics doesn't help the OP's original question. Until you or Eremicus can quantify the "accelerated wear" it's just a bunch of nervous nellies announcing the sky is falling.
Well do some research on Hi Powers and Beretta’s and that quantifies it. Whether you accept it or reject it is up to you.
Originally Posted by RufusG
Do you honestly believe a couple hundred rounds of +P to verify function is going to damage any quality modern handgun?
Depends on your definition of “modern”. A brand new Browning Hi Power could still sustain damage. This is mostly because FN just plain refuses to sufficiently upgrade the Hi Power because they desperately want to discontinue production. There are many post-WWII 9mm pistols that can be damaged by +P ammunition. Most will survive a few hundred rounds just fine, but some wont.
Originally Posted by RufusG
Have you seen any case where 90 more fps hurt? Hey, just get a 380. It's close enough to a 9mm that no one will notice.
That 90fps comes at increased recoil, muzzle flash, noise and, in some cases, reliability of the gun (all depends on the gun). It also can mean less penetration. Consider that most +P loadings of 9mm are to the lighter bullets (115-124 grain), which are a bit borderline for penetration to begin with (depending on your needs), so perhaps it could hurt. The extra velocity should increase expansion which could help. It’s at the cost of penetration, which could hurt…I don’t know it makes much of a difference, just laying out the big picture. The supposition is that +P is somehow “better”. Well if the only thing you look at is bullet expansion then it is “better.” I tend to look at how something like +P changes the whole picture, not just expansion. My conclusion is that it’s really not “better”.
In the case of the military, NATO determined it was “better” because the increased bullet weight and velocity made for better barrier and soft body armor penetration. In the case of nations using older firearms, they were willing to accept the “better” performance for penetration vs. the significantly increased wear to their pistols.
Basically, what you have, is that +P could wear out a High Power. And that's about it.
You still can't quantify the increased wear to a gun in general from using +P.
And it doesn't look to me like Smith redesigned their frame or slide from first to third gen in any manner related to the strength of the gun, and the first gen design goes back to the fifties.
I found two sources suggesting the Beretta slide failures were from batch metallurgical, not gun design issues:
Yeah, you�re right; metallurgical�as in the metallurgy was insufficient for the unexpected, newer, higher pressure ammunition spec. If you can�t see that, I don�t know that I can say anything further; we�ll just have to disagree.
Originally Posted by RufusG
And it doesn't look to me like Smith redesigned their frame or slide from first to third gen in any manner related to the strength of the gun, and the first gen design goes back to the fifties.
You have to be the only guy I�ve ever seen that hasn�t noticed a significant increase in overall �toughness� of the S&W 3rd generation pistols. The lockingcaming system is changed and metallurgically they are much stronger.
If you REALLY must know, you can call S&W. The lead design engineer is Herb Belin, that�s who you ask for.
My quantification ought to be very evident in the Hi Power. The Hi Power never had longevity problems prior to the creation of the NATO spec. The fact that the new spec beat the Hi Power to death ought to tell you that regardless of the pistol, a steady of diet of NATO pressure vs. a steady diet of SAAMI pressure�the SAAMI ammo fed gun will have a much longer life. Still, we�re splitting hairs here. Like I said, most post-1980 guns will handle +P just fine. But feed more than a couple hundred rounds to an older gun and you MAY have problems.
Last edited by KevinGibson; 01/09/12. Reason: corrected an oops
The Hi Powers you're talking about are freaking antiques. If I had a 1911A1 made in 1939 and shot continuously until...1989, I wouldn't be shooting +P .45 ACP in it. I use +P+ in my Smith M&P Compact. I wouldn't advise anybody else to do the same but am relating what I do personally. YMMV despite the conversation about many 9mm bullets needing a little more velocity to open up adequately. With the 45 you can get stopping power from frontal area and with the 9 you need extra frontal area gotten from the hollowpoint opening up. The only thing an FMJ 9 is good for is rabbits or suchlike. Same with a JHP that doesn't open up.
But, from where do we mere mortals GET that stuff?
I purchased 500 rounds of Federal +P+ 147 grain Hydra Shock on Gunbroker for use in my J-Frames 38 Specials. I am sure that one could find the +P+ in 9mm. Also Buffalo Bore loads and sells a +P+ loading for the 9mm
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