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Campfire Ranger
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Until I carried a rifle with an all up weight of under 6.5 lbs I thought a 8.5 lbs rifle was perfectly satisfactory.
Those 8-10 lbs rifles have their place but the place where you'll find your 6.5 lbs rifle is almost invariably in your hand ready to go.
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.
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Until I carried a rifle with an all up weight of under 6.5 lbs I thought a 8.5 lbs rifle was perfectly satisfactory.
Those 8-10 lbs rifles have their place but the place where you'll find your 6.5 lbs rifle is almost invariably in your hand ready to go. Yup!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Gravestone, The M70 differs from the 700 design by a wide margin. It's not at all a Chevy/Ford thing if one appreciates mechanical design. At least both are made in the USA which is good for us. While I like the stock design and checkering pattern on the new 700's and I had a 722 back in the 50's and a 700 later I don't like the design for a hunting rifle. I do have two 40x's for target shooting and they have not broken yet. The M70 design more closely follows the mauser design with its control round feeding of cartridges. Just look at the tiny toy like extractor on a 700 along with its clumsy spring loaded ejector and it will give you pause if you like machinery. Then when you find out that the bolt lug section on a 700 is brazed onto the bolt body your stomach will turn. Of course you know that the bolt handles break off of the 700's more often! Work a M70 safety and see how it holds the firing pin back on both full safe when it locks the bolt handle and also it holds the firing pin back on the half position so that you can unload a hot chamber safely. You can't do this with a 700. There is also the Ruger 77 you know. It's also a much better design than the 700. ![[Linked Image]](http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww15/Donmartin29/Remingtonbolt.jpg) Rem. bolt above.
All guns should be locked up when not in use!
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Work a M70 safety and see how it holds the firing pin back on both full safe when it locks the bolt handle and also it holds the firing pin back on the half position so that you can unload a hot chamber safely. You can't do this with a 700.
you can easily unload the hot chamber of a Remington with the safety on, stupid. you simply leave the safety on and open/retract the bolt.
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Id take a 700 over a Ruger any day of the week. The ruger, IMO is a cheap, block of cast steel.
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And IMO the Remington extractor thing is way overblown. I have never seen one fail. I have had the ejectors foul up with brass shavings and stop working.
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Let me explain. When I wrote:
"Work a M70 safety and see how it holds the firing pin back on both full safe when it locks the bolt handle and also it holds the firing pin back on the half position so that you can unload a hot chamber safely. You can't do this with a 700."
I mean that its not as safe as the 700 only controls the trigger! That the M70's hold back the firing pin! That's a big difference in safety to me.
All guns should be locked up when not in use!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
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From what I've read, the new FN M-70's also have a brazed on bolt handle, although I've not seen photos of them absent from the bolt body as in the above photo. It is my understanding that custom builders pin and/or TIG weld those bolt handles just to make sure.
I do like the three piece safety, securing the striker and not just the trigger/sear. I like to be able to unload a rifle with the safety still engaged, unlike the on/off two position safety in which that isn't possible.
You may need to elaborate on why the Ruger 77 is a "better design". For a benchrest rifle, the 700 may be the "better design". IMHO, the pre-64 M-70 is the best design of all for a general purpose hunting rifle. I like it better than the Mauser of which it's a clone, no doubt.
DF
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Yes the bolt handles on post 64 M70's are brazed on as well however the handle is keyed into the bolt body.
A smith here as reported that some M70 bolt handles have broken off as well however not as many as the 700's.
All guns should be locked up when not in use!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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From what I've read, the new FN M-70's also have a brazed on bolt handle, although I've not seen photos of them absent from the bolt body as in the above photo. It is my understanding that custom builders pin and/or TIG weld those bolt handles just to make sure.
I do like the three piece safety, securing the striker and not just the trigger/sear. I like to be able to unload a rifle with the safety still engaged, unlike the on/off two position safety in which that isn't possible.
You may need to elaborate on why the Ruger 77 is a "better design". For a benchrest rifle, the 700 may be the "better design". IMHO, the pre-64 M-70 is the best design of all for a general purpose hunting rifle. I like it better than the Mauser of which it's a clone, no doubt.
DF NH and FN models have the handle and cocking piece ramp as a single unit which is splined to fit the back of the bolt..They have a washer that is supposed to solder that joint when heat is applied correctly. I have owned 50+ remingtons and never had a problem with a extractor or a handle falling off. I have had some with sloppy feed rails that had to be returned for polishing and one with the scope mounting screws drilled by Hellen Keller. Interestingly enough the ones with the most problems were higher end 700's including one custom shop KS.
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To say the post 64 model 70's bolt is brazed on is way over simpolifying things.
The bolt body is knurled and the bolt handle and a copper washer are pressed on with a interference fit. The whole works is heated in a furnace and the copper fuses the body and handle piece together. This is a very secure joint.
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Campfire Regular
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OP
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Posts: 10,473
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Quote:
But lets use the Win model70 extreme weather & the tikka t3 stainless as examples.Why is the win. about twice as much? Is it built twice as good as the tikka? Yes. Are the materials used that much better? Yes.
Materials used, manufacturing process, fit and finish, Over all quality, etc...
Comparing these two rifles.
Stocks -
Winchester is a solid fiber glass, aramid, and graphite filled stock with aluminum bedding block, aluminium reinforced wrist, with a Pachmayr decelerator recoil pad and epoxy gel coat. The tikka stock is injection molded polymer with a hard rubber recoil pad.
Receiver -
*Winchesters actions are sized to the length of the cartridge. Tikka is one size fits all.
*Winchester has a controled round feed bolt and claw extractor. Tikka is a push feed bolt. *Winchester has a coned breech face. Tikka has a 90 degree bolt face.
*Winchesters safety is vastly superior to any safety currently on any other bolt action rifle.
*Winchesters bottom metal is real metal. Tikka's is polymer.
*Winchester has an integrated recoil lug machined into the receiver. Tikka's recoil lug is a piece of metal pressed into the stock that fits a slot milled into the receiver.
Just to name a few.
Comparing these two rifles is like comparing a bottle of fine wine with a some Boons Farm you get from the grocery store.
IMO here's some reasons that this isn't a ford vs chevy thing.I believe some rifles are just better built than others.Betterdesigns,better materials,ect......
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
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And IMO the Remington extractor thing is way overblown. I have never seen one fail. . Then you haven't been around many M700s...  Ben, I get a half-dozen or more 700s in every year with extractor's broken or worn to the point of failure.. I rarely have to replace a M70 extractor - whether PF or CRF actions..
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,473
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Quote:
But lets use the Win model70 extreme weather & the tikka t3 stainless as examples.Why is the win. about twice as much? Is it built twice as good as the tikka? Yes. Are the materials used that much better? Yes.
Materials used, manufacturing process, fit and finish, Over all quality, etc...
Comparing these two rifles.
Stocks -
Winchester is a solid fiber glass, aramid, and graphite filled stock with aluminum bedding block, aluminium reinforced wrist, with a Pachmayr decelerator recoil pad and epoxy gel coat. The tikka stock is injection molded polymer with a hard rubber recoil pad.
Receiver -
*Winchesters actions are sized to the length of the cartridge. Tikka is one size fits all.
*Winchester has a controled round feed bolt and claw extractor. Tikka is a push feed bolt. *Winchester has a coned breech face. Tikka has a 90 degree bolt face.
*Winchesters safety is vastly superior to any safety currently on any other bolt action rifle.
*Winchesters bottom metal is real metal. Tikka's is polymer.
*Winchester has an integrated recoil lug machined into the receiver. Tikka's recoil lug is a piece of metal pressed into the stock that fits a slot milled into the receiver.
Just to name a few.
Comparing these two rifles is like comparing a bottle of fine wine with a some Boons Farm you get from the grocery store.
IMO here's some reasons that this isn't a ford vs chevy thing.I believe some rifles are just better built than others.Betterdesigns,better materials,ect......
Good post - and right on.... Kudos..
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69
Pro-Constitution.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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Campfire Tracker
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Gravestone, The M70 differs from the 700 design by a wide margin. It's not at all a Chevy/Ford thing if one appreciates mechanical design. At least both are made in the USA which is good for us. While I like the stock design and checkering pattern on the new 700's and I had a 722 back in the 50's and a 700 later I don't like the design for a hunting rifle. I do have two 40x's for target shooting and they have not broken yet. The M70 design more closely follows the mauser design with its control round feeding of cartridges. Just look at the tiny toy like extractor on a 700 along with its clumsy spring loaded ejector and it will give you pause if you like machinery. Then when you find out that the bolt lug section on a 700 is brazed onto the bolt body your stomach will turn. Of course you know that the bolt handles break off of the 700's more often! Work a M70 safety and see how it holds the firing pin back on both full safe when it locks the bolt handle and also it holds the firing pin back on the half position so that you can unload a hot chamber safely. You can't do this with a 700. There is also the Ruger 77 you know. It's also a much better design than the 700. Rem. bolt above. Dawn,Go fire a hot load in your beloved pre-64M 70, then post a picture of your eye and tell us how superior they are in design... Never seen the draw to the model 70, especially pre-64's, they took a 1898 technology and went backwards with it, but somehow get praise for it..but to each their own. (i'm sure this will start a chit storm)
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Join Date: Feb 2003
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
But lets use the Win model70 extreme weather & the tikka t3 stainless as examples.Why is the win. about twice as much? Is it built twice as good as the tikka? Yes. Are the materials used that much better? Yes.
Materials used, manufacturing process, fit and finish, Over all quality, etc...
Comparing these two rifles.
Stocks -
Winchester is a solid fiber glass, aramid, and graphite filled stock with aluminum bedding block, aluminium reinforced wrist, with a Pachmayr decelerator recoil pad and epoxy gel coat. The tikka stock is injection molded polymer with a hard rubber recoil pad.
Receiver -
*Winchesters actions are sized to the length of the cartridge. Tikka is one size fits all.
*Winchester has a controled round feed bolt and claw extractor. Tikka is a push feed bolt. *Winchester has a coned breech face. Tikka has a 90 degree bolt face.
*Winchesters safety is vastly superior to any safety currently on any other bolt action rifle.
*Winchesters bottom metal is real metal. Tikka's is polymer.
*Winchester has an integrated recoil lug machined into the receiver. Tikka's recoil lug is a piece of metal pressed into the stock that fits a slot milled into the receiver.
Just to name a few.
Comparing these two rifles is like comparing a bottle of fine wine with a some Boons Farm you get from the grocery store.
IMO here's some reasons that this isn't a ford vs chevy thing.I believe some rifles are just better built than others.Betterdesigns,better materials,ect......
C'mon that comparison is skewed slightly in the M70's favor by picking the Tikka T3. A cheaper, crappier rifle would be hard to find until you get to the ATR's and Raptors. Folks seem to love them but I couldn't feel it at all. The 700 vs. 70 argument is a better match IMO.
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I wonder how hard a fix it is to replace the flimsy paper mache Remington extractor that seems to fail after only minimal use? and the bolt handle issue is another non-issue that I have never witnessed. Remington builds and sells more rifles in this country than perhaps the rest of the rifle makers (including Winchester) put together, with the sheer volume of rifles put out by Remington it stands to reason there will be more reported failures, hell there's 10 times more of these rifles out there than any other single brand, if Winchester sold anywhere near the volume of rifles Remington does more of their bolt handles would come off too along with other quality issues and failures it's the nature of the beast. The guy's saying you can't unload a Model 700 with the safety on don't know enough about the rifle to even comment here, that seems to be a problem on any forum, too many people comment on things they aren't qualified to say a word about............Hb
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Campfire Regular
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OP
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Quote:
But lets use the Win model70 extreme weather & the tikka t3 stainless as examples.Why is the win. about twice as much? Is it built twice as good as the tikka? Yes. Are the materials used that much better? Yes.
Materials used, manufacturing process, fit and finish, Over all quality, etc...
Comparing these two rifles.
Stocks -
Winchester is a solid fiber glass, aramid, and graphite filled stock with aluminum bedding block, aluminium reinforced wrist, with a Pachmayr decelerator recoil pad and epoxy gel coat. The tikka stock is injection molded polymer with a hard rubber recoil pad.
Receiver -
*Winchesters actions are sized to the length of the cartridge. Tikka is one size fits all.
*Winchester has a controled round feed bolt and claw extractor. Tikka is a push feed bolt. *Winchester has a coned breech face. Tikka has a 90 degree bolt face.
*Winchesters safety is vastly superior to any safety currently on any other bolt action rifle.
*Winchesters bottom metal is real metal. Tikka's is polymer.
*Winchester has an integrated recoil lug machined into the receiver. Tikka's recoil lug is a piece of metal pressed into the stock that fits a slot milled into the receiver.
Just to name a few.
Comparing these two rifles is like comparing a bottle of fine wine with a some Boons Farm you get from the grocery store.
IMO here's some reasons that this isn't a ford vs chevy thing.I believe some rifles are just better built than others.Betterdesigns,better materials,ect......
C'mon that comparison is skewed slightly in the M70's favor by picking the Tikka T3. A cheaper, crappier rifle would be hard to find until you get to the ATR's and Raptors. Folks seem to love them but I couldn't feel it at all. The 700 vs. 70 argument is a better match IMO. Let me explain the nature of the post you quoted.Because i can see where it's confusing.I pulled it off another site,i believe the title of the thread was "what makes one rifle better than another". The poster was using a higher level rifle {winchester} vs a lower end rifle {tikka} to compare some of the manufacturing process which makes one more costly and in esence a better built rifle than the other. I think you are correct if you were to compare the 700 vs model 70 it's much more of a closer comparison
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Campfire Ranger
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The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.
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Posts: 50,169
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
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Ok i'm in the market for a new rifle. The only 2 bolt action rifles i've owned are the Rem.78 and a Rem. 700.So i guess for lack of a better description "i'm a remington guy". Now i've shouldered both rifles both are equally comfortable.
I've read quite a bit of possitive pubicity on the model 70.My question is how many of you guys feel it's better than the than the 700 or vise-a-versa....Why do you think on is better than the other? The best bet is to get a 700, but tell the wackos at the 'Fire that you got a 70. That way everybody will be happy.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Being lefty I owned a bunch of Remington 700s over the years, acquired various tools for working on them, etc. I like them a great deal. But I have shifted almost completely to Win 70 for my big game applications because I think it is a more robust/field compatible design. I still use 700s for varmint/short action applications; I think a 700-based gun can be lighter; I think a trued 700 will generally be more accurate than a trued 70. I have had a 700 bolt handle pop off. I really don't think the new Winchester MOA trigger is an improvement because the old design was simpler and more robust. The new trigger merely inherits all of the liabilities shared by all other enclosed trigger designs. I think 70 barrel contours are too long and heavy. But I just can't get excited about building a hunting gun off a 700 any more.
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