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If the .243 is an Elk killing machine with 95 grain bullets,why wouldn't the .223 with 60-62 grain Nosler and Barnes not be also?
62 grain .223 Federal Fusions penetrate 15" in ballistic gel and I would expect the Nosler and Barnes to go farther.
So why not the .223 for Elk or is the .243 the lowest caliber lethal to Elk without a head shot?
Jayco
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Why not. Shoot an elk in the lungs,with a good bullet. It stumbles off 100 yards and dies.
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because it is illegal in WY to use a caliber smaller than 243 for big game
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I knew guys who would fill cow tags with a .223. Opening morning, head shot at under 100 yards.
It's all in the reflexes.
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Even though I disagree with using a 223 for elk, if the 223 were legal for elk in a state and one wanted that challenge, then I would have no reason not to support it.
28 Nosler,,,,300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger
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Don't stop with elk. Go kill a water buffalo.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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I realize in some States it is not legal but the huge advance in bullet technology has upped smaller calibers lethal too,several notches from back when.
If a mediocre .223 bullet will penetrate 15" in ballistic gel and expand to .54 caliber,then a well placed shot with a .223 and premium type bullets,should be an Elk killer,just like a 95 grain .243 bullet...Right?
I don't know how many of you guys have been in on penetration test in ballistic gel,but 15" isn't all that bad compared to even some 45-70 jacketed bullets.....Like 3" shy of the 400 grain Swift A-Frame tested by Rick Jamison!
Jayco
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Its illegal.......
But, if it weren't, I still think that its not appropriate regardless of whether it would work or not. I don't know of anyone who drives railroad spikes with framing hammers. I don't know why anyone would insist on using the smallest caliber possible when there are so many other choices that provide a larger margin of error.
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I dont see why one would find it necessary, or even ethical to use such a teeny tiny gun/bullet for such a big strong, tough animal. This type of thread comes up quite often, and honestly it kind of lights a fire under me. I truly do not see the point of wanting to shoot the smallest caliber to take one of the strongets animals in North America, or in general.
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Okay..The difference between the .243 and .223/.224 is .019 in diameter....
Federal Fusion .243/95 grain Fusion is 2980 fps.
Black Hills .223/62 grain TSX is ......3100 fps.
So why will the .243 kill Elk just fine and the .223 won't?My bet is the 62 grain .223/.224 TSX will penetrate as far as the 95 grain/.243 Fusion..Could be wrong and correct me if you have seen different.
I am curious why some may think the .243 is an Elk killing machine and the .223 isn't or can't be atleast equal with todays bullets and loads other than that huge .019 difference in diameter out of the muzzle.
Jayco
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Maybe some of us who think the .223 is lousy for elk. Think the same thing about the .243.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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The absolute smallest rifle I would shoot for a elk is a 25-06/257 wby. That is becaue I have seen first hand the 100 TTSX on a elk. It would not be my first choice (first would be my 300wsm).
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REFERENCE
reference
1. CEN TERFIRE RIFLES
a. Must be minimum of .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have a minimum 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, they can hold a maximum of six rounds in the magazine
and chamber combined.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh minimum 70 grains for deer,
pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact
energy (at 100 yards) of 1,000-ft. pounds as rated by manufacturer.
e. It is illegal to hunt game birds, small-game mammals or furbearers with a
centerfire rifle larger than .23 caliber during regular rifle deer and elk seasons
west of I-25, without an unfilled deer or elk license for the season. A
small-game, furbearer or unfilled big-game license is required.
2. FULLY AU TOMATIC
Here's one reason.This is from the Colorado Reg.
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I am always interested in other States regs.Thanks,Gravestone,I didn't know that about Colorado...
Not the case in Idaho though, nor am I pushing the .223 for Elk...
Jayco
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Your welcome. Not sure but i believe most elk inhabited states have a 243 min. requirement. I guess that's way the question of Elk with a 243 is asked on the forums.
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The short bus must be closed today being it is Presidents Day?
Turn me loose, set me free, somewhere in the middle of Montana!
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Why is it people want to shoot big game with a 223. And the people who have them all want a fast twist barrel so they can shoot 60-70 grain bullets. If you want to play with the big boys grow some stones and get a bigger gun. Would you use a tack hammer to pound in a pole barn spike...The same applies with your firearms. Use the right tool for the job.
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Idaho's says on page 67 of the hunting regs: http://fishandgame.idaho.govBig Game Rules
67
Weapon Restrictions
Rifle and Shotgun
In any hunt, including any-weapon seasons, it is unlawful to
pursue or kill big game animals:
� By any means other than approved firearms,
muzzleloaders and archery methods.
� With any electronic device attached to, or incorporated
on, the firearm or scope; Except scopes containing
battery powered or tritium lighted reticles are allowed.
� With any firearm that, in combination with a scope, sling
and/or any attachments, weighs more than 16 pounds.
� With any fully automatic firearm.
� With any shotgun using shot smaller than #00 buck.
� With any rimfire rifle, rimfire handgun, or muzzleloading
handgun, except for mountain lions.Jayco
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Idaho's says on page 67 of the hunting regs: http://fishandgame.idaho.govBig Game Rules
67
Weapon Restrictions
Rifle and Shotgun
In any hunt, including any-weapon seasons, it is unlawful to
pursue or kill big game animals:
� By any means other than approved firearms,
muzzleloaders and archery methods.
� With any electronic device attached to, or incorporated
on, the firearm or scope; Except scopes containing
battery powered or tritium lighted reticles are allowed.
� With any firearm that, in combination with a scope, sling
and/or any attachments, weighs more than 16 pounds.
� With any fully automatic firearm.
� With any shotgun using shot smaller than #00 buck.
� With any rimfire rifle, rimfire handgun, or muzzleloading
handgun, except for mountain lions.Jayco Must be more than that? What's an approved rifle? You can't even use a .223 on deer here. Let alone elk.
Last edited by Mauser_Hunter; 02/20/12.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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You could legally shoot an elk (or moose) in ID and/or MT with a .17 Hornet. I wouldn't try it, though I solidly believe 22 centerfires are fine for deer. Elk, I'd be on the fence till I saw it happen a few times.
I am pretty sure Scenar killed a big bull with a 220 Swift, but believe it was a target of opportunity for him while predator hunting, not elk hunting.
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seems obvious to me ; what is more important to the user ?
your ego or respect for the animal...easy choice for me.
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I think that you .223 guys should go hunt Elephants and Cape Buffalo with your little bullets too. Your all nuts!
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In the eyes of the IDFG, an "approved" firearms is just what is typed. Under 16 pounds with all attachments and ammo, cannot be fully automatic, must use 'oo' buck or bigger, no muzzleloading pistol or rimfires with the exception of mountain lions.
Believe it or not, that's it. logcutter had no typo's
First mountain lion I killed was with with my 280. They are commonly shot out of trees range best measured in feet, with .22 rimfires to keep the thin pelt damage to a minimal.
happiness is elbow deep in elk guts.
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I'm sure if it were legal here I could turn live elk into dead elk with a .223. That doesn't mean I consider it an ideal or even wise choice nor is it something I would recommend to anyone else.
The main thing, at least here, is that elk season is short, 3 - 7 days depending on the tag, and while it's possible to find a situation where a .223 will be just fine, you may not encounter that situation as often as times when something like a .338 will do the job w/o apology.
I haven't reached the point in my elk shooting career where I'd rather wait 10 extra years to get one with a .223 than get one right now with a .338.
Tom
Last edited by T_O_M; 02/20/12.
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Here be dragons ...
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Would a .223 work maybe, my minimum is a 270 winchester. Not because of experience of mine though. I just think that is as far as I am willing to go down in caliber.
JOC was right. The 270 Winchester on a Model 70 is a great combination as is the 30/06 and 375 H&H
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If the guy behind the trigger can put the animal down with 223 then why not? Who am I to tell them otherwise? If I was in the field with a 223 and an elk presented itself for I shot I wouldn't hesitate to put one through its neck. I'm willing to bet a shot behind the shoulder with a decent bullet would put them down in short order too.
There are videos on YouTube of guys culling redstags and rusa deer with 204's and 223's. Head and neck shots.
Last edited by chicoredneck; 02/20/12.
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The main thing, at least here, is that elk season is short, 3 - 7 days depending on the tag, and while it's possible to find a situation where a .223 will be just fine, you may not encounter that situation as often as times when something like a .338 will do the job w/o apology.
I haven't reached the point in my elk shooting career where I'd rather wait 10 extra years to get one with a .223 than get one right now with a .338.
Tom I agree wholeheartedly. I want a cartridge and bullet that will reach the vitals of an elk from any angle at reasonable yardage. Perfect shots don't always present themselves, bullets don't always go right where intended and critters have the tendency to move during the shot process.
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everyone should be limited to the 22 Hornet for hunting all big game. and nothing smaller than 06 for squirrels.that would teach the impotance if stalking for elk and accurcy for head shots on squirrels or you dont eat. 
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Montana does not have any caliber restrictions for big game hunting. It would not be illegal to shoot an elk with a .22 rimfire here.
When I hunted Caribou and Musk ox in northern Canada, my Eskimo guide hunted with a .223. He told me he had even killed a Polar bear with his .223, but he had to shoot it 3 times.
The smallest caliber that I have shot elk with is .25, my .257 AI, and it was probably the quickest elk kill that I have made. However, I did kill a black bear with a .223.
I have several friends that have killed a pile of elk and several buffalo with their .22-250s. When Scenearshooter lived here he killed just about everything with his .220 Swift. Critters must be tougher up north, eh Pat?
But these guys are all excellent shooters, have been hunting all of their lives, and don't shoot at animals standing in the next zip code.
SAVE 200 ELK, KILL A WOLF
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If I was in elk and only had a .223 Rem, I'd figure out how to kill one.
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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Montana does not have any caliber restrictions for big game hunting. It would not be illegal to shoot an elk with a .22 rimfire here.
When I hunted Caribou and Musk ox in northern Canada, my Eskimo guide hunted with a .223. He told me he had even killed a Polar bear with his .223, but he had to shoot it 3 times.
The smallest caliber that I have shot elk with is .25, my .257 AI, and it was probably the quickest elk kill that I have made. However, I did kill a black bear with a .223.
I have several friends that have killed a pile of elk and several buffalo with their .22-250s. When Scenearshooter lived here he killed just about everything with his .220 Swift. Critters must be tougher up north, eh Pat?
But these guys are all excellent shooters, have been hunting all of their lives, and don't shoot at animals standing in the next zip code. I think you meant centerfire...correct?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Don't stop with elk. Go kill a water buffalo. African lion.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I am always interested in other States regs.Thanks,Gravestone,I didn't know that about Colorado...
Not the case in Idaho though, nor am I pushing the .223 for Elk...
Jayco Huh?
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Hey Logcutter, if you can't shoot an elk rifle, don't go elk hunting.Simple huh? Magnum Man
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To me, the question is not can you, but why would you want to? I mean if a guy was really good, why not run them down, tackle them and then beat them to death with only your fists? I would be sick if I stuck a .223 in a giant and he turned and walked away just to die without being found. I guess I just don't get it. Why flirt with it? It'd be hard to forget about it if you wounded a big elk knowing good and well that you could/should have been shooting something bigger. It's been done, so the answer is yes, you CAN kill one with that caliber, but really? Why?
What happens when you get scared half to death...twice?
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If all I had was a rock, I'd figure out how to kill an elk with it..
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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Probably, but no one here who has a .223. Has to kill an elk.
Last edited by Mauser_Hunter; 02/20/12.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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*** You are ignoring this user ***
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I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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Who cares? Sissy.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Seems like "Why?" keeps coming up...
I haven't hunted elk with a 223, but I have with a bow.
I could sure kill him from further and from more angles with the .223 and a good bullet.
Maybe some guys enjoy the challenge of using something where you have to get closer and pick shots more carefully - kind of a half way point between bow hunting and running a 300WSM and 180 TTSX (which is probably what I'd use rifle hunting elk, FWIW).
I don't hear the outrage about bow hunting, but the .223 sure stirs it up.
Frankly, having lots of children who hunt has given me a greater appreciation of what the little round can do, and I have zero doubt I could kill an elk with one very ethically and without much drama if I needed to.
In fact, I think it would be easy enough that I wouldn't see it as adding much challenge, which is why I liked trying it with a bow - but am not real interested in going the .223 route - but I wouldn't be sore at a guy who wanted to run the .223 or a pistol or a bow if he did it to make the hunt more challenging and conducted his hunt accordingly.
DJ
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Nobody bitches about the effectiveness of an arrow - which is behind that of a .223 from a rifle.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Personally I am waiting for the thread to migrate to Elk and the 17 Fireball...or maybe the new 17 Ackley Hornet...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So why not the .223 for Elk or is the .243 the lowest caliber lethal to Elk without a head shot?
Jayco Because Craig Boddington and Jack Atcheson say the .338 is king. Jayco, did you know that Boddington swears by the Hummer H-2 also? That's all I need to know, I'm gonna git one today!!!
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Well if your a local and it is legal, go for it. I personally would not travel for two days, spend a lot of money and have my hunt hinge on a 223.
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You could AI it. Turns a mouse gun into a moose gun.
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
- Albert Einstein
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I have no doubt that the 223, coupled with the right bullet could kill an elk cleanly. But like Viking said, if I were to travel out west for an elk hunt, I would bring my 300wm. If I wanted to go light, I'd have my 7mm-08.
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You better get off that cactus juice and get realistic if you are going elk hunting. .223 ha!ha!!!!!!!!!!
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Seems like "Why?" keeps coming up...
I haven't hunted elk with a 223, but I have with a bow.
I could sure kill him from further and from more angles with the .223 and a good bullet.
Maybe some guys enjoy the challenge of using something where you have to get closer and pick shots more carefully - kind of a half way point between bow hunting and running a 300WSM and 180 TTSX (which is probably what I'd use rifle hunting elk, FWIW).
I don't hear the outrage about bow hunting, but the .223 sure stirs it up.
Frankly, having lots of children who hunt has given me a greater appreciation of what the little round can do, and I have zero doubt I could kill an elk with one very ethically and without much drama if I needed to.
In fact, I think it would be easy enough that I wouldn't see it as adding much challenge, which is why I liked trying it with a bow - but am not real interested in going the .223 route - but I wouldn't be sore at a guy who wanted to run the .223 or a pistol or a bow if he did it to make the hunt more challenging and conducted his hunt accordingly.
DJ I find your comments to be very wise and I agree %100.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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This thread is a joke....Jayco is playing with you guys.. 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Now Bob...I already gave reasons why, if the .243 is an Elk gun then the .223 should be also.I gave penetration test in ballistic Gel where a mediocre Federal Fusion out of a .223 penetrated 15" in ballistic Gel. If you know your Gel and how other Elk calibers penetrate in it,15" is about maybe average.
I also stated that if the 95 grain Fusion(type bullet) out of a .243 @ 2980 fps is an Elk slayer,then a 62 grain TSX @ 3100 fps in .224 should atleast be equal with only .019 difference in diameter.
I have personally seen Elk killed with a 22-250 so I stepped it up a notch and acquired not just one,but two .223 rifles..There light weight/easy to carry/hardly any recoil at all and plinking ammo is not worth reloading since it is so inexpensive.
So Bob..Tell me why a .223/.224 is not an Elk rifle if the .243 is,as so many say, and yes,I have seen Elk killed with the mighty .243?
I doubt anyone can say either cannot kill Elk since the .223 is like famous here in Idaho since we heard how well it works on Polar Bears by local tribesmen in AK,not even our Idaho elk are that tough.
Jayco
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Five Federal Fusions picked out of ballistic gel out of the .223 measured at 15" penetration depth at "100 yards" not in someones basement...The 45-70 400 grain Swift A-Frame only did 18". Not a bad looking bullet with some very nice cutting edges. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/jaycocreek/Fusions.jpg) Jayco
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Good deal if you're hunting ballistic gel.
Any bones in that gel?
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Richard Mann,one of the NRA's contracted experts, helped develop the Bullet Test tube. (It�s slightly harder material than the gelatin used in Federal�s test.) Mann tested Federal�s loads in it and on deer, and here�s what he found:
When robustly constructed bullets like the Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition and Fusion are used inside 150 yards, penetration with the .223 Remington is on par with cartridges like the .243 and the .30-30 Winchester.�
We all know the 30-30 Winchester has killed a boat load of Elk and most other game and when the .223 penetrates equally with a well constructed bullet,within it's range and a well placed shot,I see no problem using it on Elk,just like the famed .243.
Jayco
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I would wager that your little fed. fusions may not even make it through a rib bone or at least be deflected. I just have always liked to use the correct tool for any job that I do. I also bet that your little bullets don't provide much of a blood trail. I hope your a good tracker. Daryl.
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Richard Mann,one of the NRA's contracted experts, helped develop the Bullet Test tube. (It�s slightly harder material than the gelatin used in Federal�s test.) Mann tested Federal�s loads in it and on deer, and here�s what he found:
When robustly constructed bullets like the Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition and Fusion are used inside 150 yards, penetration with the .223 Remington is on par with cartridges like the .243 and the .30-30 Winchester.�
We all know the 30-30 Winchester has killed a boat load of Elk and most other game and when the .223 penetrates equally with a well constructed bullet,within it's range and a well placed shot,I see no problem using it on Elk,just like the famed .243.
Jayco You remind me of some fly fisherman I know. They insist on using the lightest tippets (end of leader) for very big fish. What happens is they can't put any real pressure on the fish, or the tippet will break. They also use very light fly rods, and again they can't put any pressure on the fish. So, all they can do is slowly play the fish until it's exhausted. Now, keep in mind these are catch and release fisherman who claim to care for the fish. They're also fishing Gold Medal waters that are always catch and release. The point being to not kill the fish. They finally land the exhausted trout on their tiny .223 size fishing gear, and hold up their prize bragging how they did it on small gear. Then they finally put the trout back in the water trying to revive it. It may slowly swim away, but it's dead. It went off by itself to die. I ask them why they do it. They say because it fun and a challenge. The truth is they just want to brag about it, and could care less about killing the fish. I feel someone who shoots a small caliber for big game is doing the same thing. Just something to brag about with no regard for the animal. As was already said. You want to hunt elk? Buy an elk gun. Surely you can handle more than 3 lbs of recoil?
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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...... when the .223 penetrates equally with a well constructed bullet,within it's range and a well placed shot,I see no problem using it on Elk,just like the famed .243.
Jayco So, are you trying to make the case that a 60-grain .223 bullet penetrating 15 inches in a ballistic medium is the same as a .50 caliber 450 grain bullet penetrating 15 inches in the same medium?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Don't take me wrong,I am far from saying the .223 is an Elk caliber.Just saying like the .243 thread,it is capable of getting the job done if all the marbles lined up correctly and you use a top of the line bullet for the job.
What I am saying is,when the .243 is touted as being an Elk slayer then the .223/.224 is one also.It is on par in penetration and only lacking .019 in diameter before expansion and carries a higher velocity.
Out of all the rifles I have used on Elk,the .300 Win Mag continues to be my personal favorite with the .270 and '06 right on it's heals.
Jayco
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A .243 is the bottom of the barrel for elk for most of us. You want to go below that? Makes no sense.
I would never consider a .243 for elk. A .223 is laughable for me. I don't care how many polar bears it's killed.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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So, are you trying to make the case that a 60-grain .223 bullet penetrating 15 inches in a ballistic medium is the same as a .50 caliber 450 grain bullet penetrating 15 inches in the same medium? Yes,if the 450 grain is unexpanded because the 62 grain Federal Fusion expanded to .54 caliber.If your 450 grain expands,then of course not and remember,that expansion and penetration was at 100 yards not 25. The case I am trying to make is when using a bullet like the TSX out of the .223 at 3100 fps(factory ammo) it is capable of taking Elk,certainly not my first choice,but like the 243 and 30-30 that it is on par with in penetration on game,certainly enough if the nut behind the wheel does his part. Jayco
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Bottom line Logcutter. Would you use a .223 for elk?
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Bottom line Logcutter. Would you use a .223 for elk? That's cheating. If I was wolf hunting and elk season was open and all I had was my .223,yes if it was a short(within 100 yards) broadside shot with the elk not spooked and I had either Nosler or TSX's in the tube. Would I go Elk hunting with a .223..Not in this lifetime unless were invaded by a foreign country. Jayco
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Bottom line Logcutter. Would you use a .223 for elk? That's cheating. If I was wolf hunting and elk season was open and all I had was my .223,yes if it was a short(within 100 yards) broadside shot with the elk not spooked and I had either Nosler or TSX's in the tube. Would I go Elk hunting with a .223..Not in this lifetime unless were invaded by a foreign country. Jayco That's cheating too. Why would you be carrying a .223, and hunting wolves in elk season? 
Last edited by Mauser_Hunter; 02/21/12.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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I guess I am missing the point.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Jayco, your logic is irrefutable....no doubt it "can be done".......but......  You ain't suckin' me into this one....
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Ranger
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You can tell we are between big game hunting season
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You can tell we are between big game hunting season +1
happiness is elbow deep in elk guts.
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Montana does not have any caliber restrictions for big game hunting. It would not be illegal to shoot an elk with a .22 rimfire here.
When I hunted Caribou and Musk ox in northern Canada, my Eskimo guide hunted with a .223. He told me he had even killed a Polar bear with his .223, but he had to shoot it 3 times.
The smallest caliber that I have shot elk with is .25, my .257 AI, and it was probably the quickest elk kill that I have made. However, I did kill a black bear with a .223.
I have several friends that have killed a pile of elk and several buffalo with their .22-250s. When Scenearshooter lived here he killed just about everything with his .220 Swift. Critters must be tougher up north, eh Pat?
But these guys are all excellent shooters, have been hunting all of their lives, and don't shoot at animals standing in the next zip code. I think you meant centerfire...correct? No, I didn't. To quote from the 2011 Montana Deer, Elk, Antelope regulations, page 7: "Methods of Hunting
Firearms
General Season
There is no rifle or handgun caliber limitation for the taking of big game animals."The same exact wording in also written on page 10 of the 2011 Montana Moose, Sheep, Goat Regulations. I'm not advocating it, I'm just reporting what is written.
SAVE 200 ELK, KILL A WOLF
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Damn, I never would have guessed that. Page 10 specifies no caliber limitations, but says nothing about centerfire vs rimfire.
I read the entire regs though to see if any more info was available concerning CF and RF. You're right: a 22 rimfire is legal. Crazy.
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Indian, not the arrow. Good enough statement for me.
Just think, years and years ago, there were no rules, folks used what worked and within its parameters and did just fine. Somewhere someone decided we needed more and more rules and regs, evidently for idiots that came along somewhere along the line...
Along those lines I"d bet that more than a few elk were tipped wtih 32-20 and 25-20 over the years.
Since I know my limitations and the limitations of the given cartridge I choose, I think its no one elses business. But then again I do have ethics...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Richard Mann,one of the NRA's contracted experts, helped develop the Bullet Test tube. (It�s slightly harder material than the gelatin used in Federal�s test.) Mann tested Federal�s loads in it and on deer, and here�s what he found:
When robustly constructed bullets like the Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition and Fusion are used inside 150 yards, penetration with the .223 Remington is on par with cartridges like the .243 and the .30-30 Winchester.�
We all know the 30-30 Winchester has killed a boat load of Elk and most other game and when the .223 penetrates equally with a well constructed bullet,within it's range and a well placed shot,I see no problem using it on Elk,just like the famed .243.
Jayco You remind me of some fly fisherman I know. They insist on using the lightest tippets (end of leader) for very big fish. What happens is they can't put any real pressure on the fish, or the tippet will break. They also use very light fly rods, and again they can't put any pressure on the fish. So, all they can do is slowly play the fish until it's exhausted. Now, keep in mind these are catch and release fisherman who claim to care for the fish. They're also fishing Gold Medal waters that are always catch and release. The point being to not kill the fish. They finally land the exhausted trout on their tiny .223 size fishing gear, and hold up their prize bragging how they did it on small gear. Then they finally put the trout back in the water trying to revive it. It may slowly swim away, but it's dead. It went off by itself to die. I ask them why they do it. They say because it fun and a challenge. The truth is they just want to brag about it, and could care less about killing the fish. I feel someone who shoots a small caliber for big game is doing the same thing. Just something to brag about with no regard for the animal. As was already said. You want to hunt elk? Buy an elk gun. Surely you can handle more than 3 lbs of recoil? So Mauser, where do you draw the line caliber wise and WHY?
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Colorado says nothing smaller than a .243. I guess i'll go along with that, but personally. A .270.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Sure, a .223 could kill an Elk with a perfect shot, but in the field it is seldom perfect shot. To use a small caliber creates the potienial to wound if the shot is marginal, such as if the animal moved as the trigger is pulled... Sure, the same could happen with a larger caliber, but when it comes down to it, there is a reason why highly experienced Elk hunters use larger calibers because they have seen and trailed an animal that was wounded or couldn't be recovered and dies a slow death. Yea, the placement is more important than than the size, but no one, and I MEAN NO ONE, will always make a perfect shot in the field.
Rick
Life is not a spectator sport, get out and have fun.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Interesting. A 243 of years ago, with modern propellants and projectiles, a 223 easily will do anything an old 243 would.
That being said if I am headed on a hunt where I don't want to have to pass a shot, IE any elk hunt I go on since I'm still elkless, my minimum is 300 mag and prefer a 338 mag. MZ wise nothing less than a 54 running 545 grain conicals.
Still, all in all, if you are willing to hunt and choose a light gun, I don't at all see it like a light tippet. You simply don't "fish" if you can't "get it in right now" Its not like the animal will suffer or the bullet will bounce off, just that you have to have tighter parameters. Just like MZ and Archery hunters take on everytime they go out.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Good deal if you're hunting ballistic gel.
Any bones in that gel? Come on Mauser, chootem twixt the damned ribs man. 
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Word to the wise. I have killed 4 elk with 22 centerfires and in my experience elk shoulders will stop 80gr VLDs every time. Rib shot elk are dead as fast as rib shot elk die but I would highly recommend using arrow type shot placement as other posters have suggested with the .22s. On the same line of thought I have never seen the 105gr .243 VLD fail on an elks shoulder but I have only seen a dozen or so elk killed with that bullet. In my personal experience that is the difference between the calibers. Lil Logcutter, While you are stirring the pot here somewhat I also suspect you are liking your new machine gun and are playing with the thought of popping an elk with said black rifle?  Keep it on the ribs close to the heart and you will have no problems and as others have said it might be kinda fun like any other limited range type of hunt. Killing an elk with the .223 would certainly be easier than taking said elk with a bow. I am amazed that anyone could be so uncertain of their shooting ability to think quickly killing an elk at 200yds with a .223 would somehow be impossible for all but the superhuman.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
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I dunno logcutter, performance of premium bullets aside..... I spose' if an elk was to walk out in my shooting range, no farther than 100 yds, completely broadside, in elk season, WHILE I was shooting my .223, bullet construction almost besides the point by now, hell under those conditions I would be stupid not to put one behind or in the ear.... None of that has happened, not that it can't but I'm not really looking to hold out for that kind opportunity to kill an elk.... Elk hunting already has enough hurtles in it.  If thats ALL the rifle I had was my one hole shoot'n, fast, nimble .223, I would hunt like I was bow hunting to close the range and kill elk.
happiness is elbow deep in elk guts.
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I shouldn't really talk. This year i'm using a flintlock and round ball for muley's and elk. I understand it's limits though, and will only take close perfect shots. I may never get those shots, but i'll have fun trying.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So, are you trying to make the case that a 60-grain .223 bullet penetrating 15 inches in a ballistic medium is the same as a .50 caliber 450 grain bullet penetrating 15 inches in the same medium? Yes,if the 450 grain is unexpanded....... Of course the bullet would expand, so your "comeback" makes no sense. Just like the orignal post.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I shouldn't really talk. This year i'm using a flintlock and round ball for muley's and elk. I understand it's limits though, and will only take close perfect shots. I may never get those shots, but i'll have fun trying. You then understand my contention RE the 223. Thats all.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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because it is illegal in WY to use a caliber smaller than 243 for big game Same in Colorado..... Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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I think everyone knows how tough wild boar hide is and Winchester has come up with a new .223 and .308 bullet to deal with just that.Thick hide and bone...If a Berger VLD fails in an Elk shoulder would that mean a Barnes or Nosler would also?I don't think so. As someone said earlier..Is a new .223 bullet of today equal to the old bullets in a .243..Yup... With todays bullets, I see no reason if used accordingly that the .223 which tested equal in penetration on Deer by an NRA contractor, to the .243 and 30-30 in penetration, cannot cleanly kill Elk. Why is it some say the .243 is an Elk killin' machine but the .224 isn't with only .019 difference in unexpanded diameter with them penetrating equally. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/jaycocreek/RazorBackXT.jpg) Jayco
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LOL "wild" boar arent that tough, most people just dont understand their anatomy or make poor shots. Despite what you've read on the internet, there are no bulletproof hogs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm-QM1nxjPkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m2vaJCBQTsLooks like the 30-30 packs a bit more power, and in case of using a barnes bullet probably expands to a much larger diameter than a .223 would. Yes i've seen what a barnes tsx .223 bullet will do when used on deer, it works and expands nicely but nowhere near what a .30cal would expand to. Going off your signature, you're just stirring the pot with your "why not a .223 for elk?". If you want to use it, and its legal go for it.
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If the .243 is an Elk killing machine with 95 grain bullets,why wouldn't the .223 with 60-62 grain Nosler and Barnes not be also?
62 grain .223 Federal Fusions penetrate 15" in ballistic gel and I would expect the Nosler and Barnes to go farther.
So why not the .223 for Elk or is the .243 the lowest caliber lethal to Elk without a head shot?
Jayco And there's still another month of winter.....
I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....
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Why is it some say the .243 is an Elk killin' machine but the .224 isn't with only .019 difference in unexpanded diameter with them penetrating equally.
Jayco Q: Why is it that some say the .338 is the ultimate elk round, but the .308 isn't with only .030 difference in unexpanded diameter with them penetrating equally? A: Because Craig Boddington didn't write it in a book.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Elk are not bullet proof neither. But like hogs, can be coated in mud and sport heavy bones within them self's, and live in the thickest patch of brush you can find. A perfect storm for bullet problems with high velocity, hard angled shots. I tend to hunt where animals live, not from the next drainage over, with match hollow point bullets and while getting everything on video. I use bullets more suited to my mode of hunting. I have sniped a few from ridge top to ridge top, It just not how I choose to hunt. Yep, any .22 centerfire will kill elk. Just gotta point'em in the right direction. Just like anything elts
happiness is elbow deep in elk guts.
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I shouldn't really talk. This year i'm using a flintlock and round ball for muley's and elk. I understand it's limits though, and will only take close perfect shots. I may never get those shots, but i'll have fun trying. You then understand my contention RE the 223. Thats all. I'm not so foolish to say a .223 won't kill an elk. That's already been proven. My problem is admitting it's a good elk round. Not to toot my own horn, but I there's one thing I do well in my hunting. It's being very disciplined on the shots I take. My dad drove that into me, and it stuck. I pass up a lot of shots. So, I worry about guys using small calibers for big game, and an elk is big game. Especially, if we're talking about a mature bull. There's not a lot of hunters who can turn down angled shots. To always wait for a side double lung shot because you have a minimal gun is not something everybody can do. That's my problem with the .223.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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I don't think I would ever hunt elk with a 223 or a 243, but I am just happy that I live in a free state that allows me to decide for myself what cartridge I want to use. None of this 1000fpe BS, or caliber restrictions.
I know a guy who used an Encore pistol in 223 with a silencer to kill an elk. He was at close range and made a good shot right in the head. He is a very good shot and an even better hunter. In a most states what he did would have been illegal. In Idaho, it was legal and effective.
I have bigger rifles that I prefer to use, and I am happy that I am allowed to make that choice on my own, without the government telling me!
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You remind me of some fly fisherman I know. They insist on using the lightest tippets (end of leader) for very big fish. What happens is they can't put any real pressure on the fish, or the tippet will break. They also use very light fly rods, and again they can't put any pressure on the fish. So, all they can do is slowly play the fish until it's exhausted.
Now, keep in mind these are catch and release fisherman who claim to care for the fish. They're also fishing Gold Medal waters that are always catch and release. The point being to not kill the fish.
They finally land the exhausted trout on their tiny .223 size fishing gear, and hold up their prize bragging how they did it on small gear. Then they finally put the trout back in the water trying to revive it. It may slowly swim away, but it's dead. It went off by itself to die.
I ask them why they do it. They say because it fun and a challenge. The truth is they just want to brag about it, and could care less about killing the fish.
I feel someone who shoots a small caliber for big game is doing the same thing. Just something to brag about with no regard for the animal.
As was already said. You want to hunt elk? Buy an elk gun. Surely you can handle more than 3 lbs of recoil?
Last edited by 340mag; 02/22/12.
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I enjoy the hunt, but not so much the kill anymore..i have great respect for bowhunters, but could personally not mentally deal with the time elapse from when the arrow finds its mark to the time the gutting begans...when i shoot an animal i am always hopefull the end result will be instantanious, but it rarely is and i dont like dealing with that.
So as pointed out earlier, a .223 would quite likely dispatch an elk quicker then the bow but i would just pass altogether if those were my only options...
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Why is it some say the .243 is an Elk killin' machine but the .224 isn't with only .019 difference in unexpanded diameter with them penetrating equally.
Jayco Well in my case it is because I have personally used both and am not guessing.
John Burns
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I think everyone knows how tough wild boar hide is and Winchester has come up with a new .223 and .308 bullet to deal with just that.Thick hide and bone...If a Berger VLD fails in an Elk shoulder would that mean a Barnes or Nosler would also?I don't think so. As someone said earlier..Is a new .223 bullet of today equal to the old bullets in a .243..Yup... With todays bullets, I see no reason if used accordingly that the .223 which tested equal in penetration on Deer by an NRA contractor, to the .243 and 30-30 in penetration, cannot cleanly kill Elk. Why is it some say the .243 is an Elk killin' machine but the .224 isn't with only .019 difference in unexpanded diameter with them penetrating equally. Jayco I have killed A LOT of feral hogs and I havn't seen anything to make me believe that they are any tougher than other game animals. The boars sometimes have a lot of dried mud on their shoulders, but that does not seem to make a difference to a bullet. The 223 partions and solid coppers do penetrate well and I would not be surprised if they penetrated an elk shoulder adaquaetly. John's 90gr VLD failed while a 105 VLD did penetrate. The two bullet's SD should be pretty close and so is their weight. Thats a very fine line there, so again, I would guess that a stouter 223 bullet would have no problem penetrating a shoulder. Are you going to go test this for us?
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It's been said that 1500 ft. pounds of energy is a good starting place for an elk round.The 243 give you 1500+ ft. pounds @ 100yds.,the 223 doesn't give you that at the muzzle no matter what bullet you use.
I don't think either the 243 or the 223 are good elk rounds but if i had to choose one it would be the 243.
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You remind me of some fly fisherman I know. They insist on using the lightest tippets (end of leader) for very big fish. What happens is they can't put any real pressure on the fish, or the tippet will break. They also use very light fly rods, and again they can't put any pressure on the fish. So, all they can do is slowly play the fish until it's exhausted.
Now, keep in mind these are catch and release fisherman who claim to care for the fish. They're also fishing Gold Medal waters that are always catch and release. The point being to not kill the fish.
They finally land the exhausted trout on their tiny .223 size fishing gear, and hold up their prize bragging how they did it on small gear. Then they finally put the trout back in the water trying to revive it. It may slowly swim away, but it's dead. It went off by itself to die.
I ask them why they do it. They say because it fun and a challenge. The truth is they just want to brag about it, and could care less about killing the fish.
I feel someone who shoots a small caliber for big game is doing the same thing. Just something to brag about with no regard for the animal.
As was already said. You want to hunt elk? Buy an elk gun. Surely you can handle more than 3 lbs of recoil? So small women and children who don't care for the recoil of a 270 shouldn't go elk hunting? A vast number of elk shot every year are backed up to and loaded into a pickup, and I know several very successful elk hunters who have never packed out an elk.
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Are there small women and children on this thread saying a .223 is ok for elk.
I see grown men saying it's ok, and that's who i'm talking about.
I was 10 years old on my first elk hunt. I shot a 30-30. I don't think any women are as small as I was.
Last edited by Mauser_Hunter; 02/22/12.
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Campfire Kahuna
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You remind me of some fly fisherman I know. They insist on using the lightest tippets (end of leader) for very big fish. What happens is they can't put any real pressure on the fish, or the tippet will break. They also use very light fly rods, and again they can't put any pressure on the fish. So, all they can do is slowly play the fish until it's exhausted.
Now, keep in mind these are catch and release fisherman who claim to care for the fish. They're also fishing Gold Medal waters that are always catch and release. The point being to not kill the fish.
They finally land the exhausted trout on their tiny .223 size fishing gear, and hold up their prize bragging how they did it on small gear. Then they finally put the trout back in the water trying to revive it. It may slowly swim away, but it's dead. It went off by itself to die.
I ask them why they do it. They say because it fun and a challenge. The truth is they just want to brag about it, and could care less about killing the fish.
I feel someone who shoots a small caliber for big game is doing the same thing. Just something to brag about with no regard for the animal.
As was already said. You want to hunt elk? Buy an elk gun. Surely you can handle more than 3 lbs of recoil? um, some folks need help packing out anyway due to health and age.... I help whenever I am around someone that needs it. I think your statement is kinda chicken [bleep]... you are not taking into account older and disabled folks...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Are there small women and children on this thread saying a .223 is ok for elk.
I see grown men saying it's ok, and that's who i'm talking about.
I was 10 years old on my first elk hunt. I shot a 30-30. I don't think any women are as small as I was. So what? I could pack a 458 Lott for elk. Doesn't make me tougher than the guy carrying the 223.
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LOL This forum is funny.
In case you haven't noticed. I'm not the only one who thinks a .223 is too small for elk.
You also know I wasn't talking about women, kids, the old(me), and the disabled. Read my damn post again. Would any of those brag about the gun they use? Of course they wouldn't.
Use your freaking head, and stop looking for arguments.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Ohhh! I see the problem here. You couldn't figure out who I was talking to in my first post. Please figure out how to use the internet, and get back to me. Also, questions are normally followed by question marks. Just sayin'.
As for the 223 on elk. If I had them eating off my hay meadows, where my shots were <200 yards, I wouldn't feel a damned bit bad about using a 223. Plenty of elk are shot every year under just such circumstances. Would I take one on a pack in hunt into lodgepole blowdown hell? Nope.
Lay off the ass shots, and put a TSX into the heart/lungs. Dead elk. This killing thing really isn't too complicated, despite our best efforts to make it so.
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when HUNTING sometimes shots are not ideal and neither is a 223 to go elk hunting, ideal conditons are just as prairie_goat said then maybe a 223 , but even then i like bigger bullets for bigger critters
i shot an elk once in the head with a 338 and 210 partions at about 200 yards +/- 15 , of course it dropped dead , yes a 243 would have done the same but when i left 2 hours before daylight i did not know what the situation would be
i dont need a ultra mag, i know how to shoot my 30-06
having that obama sticker on your car might as well say " Yes i'm stupid "
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Ohhh! I see the problem here. You couldn't figure out who I was talking to in my first post. Please figure out how to use the internet, and get back to me. Also, questions are normally followed by question marks. Just sayin'.
I figured you and rost were talking to me. Since you both quoted me. Isn't that how the internet works? Even without a question mark. Your turn.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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You could AI it. Turns a mouse gun into a moose gun. AI you gotta be kidding he asked about elk not elephants, AI too much gun...
Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.
The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming.
Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid.
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Indian, not the arrow. Good enough statement for me.
Just think, years and years ago, there were no rules, folks used what worked and within its parameters and did just fine. Somewhere someone decided we needed more and more rules and regs, evidently for idiots that came along somewhere along the line...
Along those lines I"d bet that more than a few elk were tipped wtih 32-20 and 25-20 over the years.
Since I know my limitations and the limitations of the given cartridge I choose, I think its no one elses business. But then again I do have ethics... Some guy Elmer Something once took an elk with a 32 WCF (32-20) Colt SAA if I remember correctly...
Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.
The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming.
Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid.
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Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should?
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Main reason not to is that it increases your odds of taking a beautiful creature and making it suffer a long slow death when you could have used something appropriate and reduced it to possession and fed your family and friends with it for a good part of a year. Yes a .223 can kill an elk if everything goes right. So can a .22 long rifle. But why take that chance? Just to show off? Bragging rights? It doesn't seem wise or ethical to me, legalities aside.
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Not gonna get caught in this web of gack, but will say I have not taken or used a 223 on elk.
I will say that for some reason or another I'm quite certain that under certain circumstances the 22/250 and the Swift have done elk for us quite handily. Place it in the arm pit and they can't go far sans pumper or lungs. Or so I'm told....grin
That's it, so don't try to debate on this.
Dober
Last edited by Mark R Dobrenski; 02/23/12.
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Don't stop with elk. Go kill a water buffalo. my sentiments exactly!
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I wanna see someone take a week to 10 days off from work,pay for tags, transportation,and the million other DIY expenses;or shell out a few grand (today in some cases 5 figures),on an outfitted hunt,and depend on a 223 on an elk hunt.
Such tricks are fine to talk about, or for someone who lives in elk country, sees them constantly, and wants to pull off a stunt that won't impress anyone with any experience,except maybe himself.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I think any post promoting these micro-calibers for elk should be required to state how many wounded elk have escaped. Seems that that detail is always left out.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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I wouldn't choose a 223 for killing elk, but I do believe a 223 loaded up with something like 75gr Swift, 70gr TSX would be at least as good or better than stuff used in days gone by.
Had to be a lot of elk killed with old round ball charcoal burners, 44-40s, etc.
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Had to be a lot of elk killed with old round ball charcoal burners, 44-40s, etc.
Still are.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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It's all about understanding the limitations, and working within them.
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That's right MM, and sooner or later all rounds reach their limits and usually as we all know the shooter reaches the limits well b4 the rounds do...
On a side note but sort of the same take timber hunting. I'm very comfy using smaller rounds in the timber (meaning sub magums or big bores) reason being I'll take the shot if alls right. If'n it's not I'll not drop the hammer. Some I know will drop the hammer at the sight of elk, not really knowing where they're gonna place the slug. The old get a slug into an elk and hope to sort it out.
In the timber I'm in predator mode, and know I'll get one shot. If I take it, the critters gonna hit the turf. If I can't get that shot then I don't drop the hammer.
Just my way.
Dober
Last edited by Mark R Dobrenski; 02/23/12.
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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I guess my question would be Why shoot an elk with a .223?
My progression through guns growing up was first a pellet/BB gun to learn with and shoot squirrels and targets with, then a 22LR to replace the BB gun and about the same time a 20 Ga shotgun for bird/rabbit hunting. Then when I was old enough for big game I moved onto a 30-30 then a 30-06. I didn't own a .223 until later on when I bought it as a dedicated varmint gun. I'm thinking this is a typical progression with most hunters and I'm thinking most who own a .223 or similar varmint rifle also have a real big game rifle in their battery so why bother using a varmint rifle on elk when you most likely have a rifle better suited for the task at hand.
Keep your powder dry and stay frosty my friends.
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I wouldn't choose a 223 for killing elk, but I do believe a 223 loaded up with something like 75gr Swift, 70gr TSX would be at least as good or better than stuff used in days gone by.
Had to be a lot of elk killed with old round ball charcoal burners, 44-40s, etc. I've never shot an elk but have killed a bunch of deer with .490 round balls and a .223. The .223 consistently inflicts more damage upon a deers innards than the .490 balls.
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Once again on penetration and those that know what it is supposed to mean in ballistic Gel in different calibers..
There can't be anyone here that can say the 30-30 is not an Elk gun within it's limitations of yardage for effectiveness.
Out of the AR-15...223/5.56
Cartridge : Barnes 62gr Triple-Shock (handloaded).223
Firearm : Gas-operated rifle with 16" barrel length and 1/9 inch rifling twist.
Block calibration : All depths corrected (From 9.5cm @ 578 ft/sec (primary block) and 8.3cm @ 585 ft/sec (stopper block))
Penetration = 17.4"
Average expanded diameter = 0.408"
Impact velocity = 2752 ft/sec
The 30-30 Winchester with 20" barrel....
Cartridge : 160 grain Hornady Evolution bullet (part # 82730).
Firearm : Lever-actuated rifle with 20" barrel length.
Calibration : All depths corrected (From 9.8cm @ 616ft/sec)
Bullet impacted at 2216 � 0.500 ft/sec
Penetration was 17.5"
Jayco
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If all you have is a .223 I would say check your game laws, load it properly and properly place your shots. Theoretically it should kill an elk under IDEAL conditions. However, with other rifles to choose from in a battery of larger more powerful cartridges which is usually the case it would be one of the last ones I would choose.
Keep your powder dry and stay frosty my friends.
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Then there are Polar Bears with the AR-15... While Herbert waited at one end of the island, Cadzow, on foot, went into the brush tracking the bear.
Suddenly, the bear came out from under a brush pile about 10 yards away. It charged straight at Cadzow, who was carrying an AR-15, a rifle similar to the U.S. Army�s M-16.
The encounter was so close, Cadzow said, he didn�t have time to lift and sight the rifle.
�I shot from the hip, seven or eight times,� he said. �If I had gotten it to my shoulder, it (bear) would have been on top of me. It happened so quick, by the time it was down, it was about 10 feet from my feet.�Or a charging Black Bear. The officers tried scaring the bear toward a nonresidential area by yelling at it and throwing sticks at it, Weiser said. He said the entire incident lasted about an hour.
The bear eventually turned around, but came directly toward the officers. One of them fired a single shot with an AR-15 rifle, killing the bear, Weiser said.I should be wolf hunting instead of playing on the net..Thanx gas prices.. Jayco
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Then there are Polar Bears with the AR-15... While Herbert waited at one end of the island, Cadzow, on foot, went into the brush tracking the bear.
Suddenly, the bear came out from under a brush pile about 10 yards away. It charged straight at Cadzow, who was carrying an AR-15, a rifle similar to the U.S. Army�s M-16.
The encounter was so close, Cadzow said, he didn�t have time to lift and sight the rifle.
�I shot from the hip, seven or eight times,� he said. �If I had gotten it to my shoulder, it (bear) would have been on top of me. It happened so quick, by the time it was down, it was about 10 feet from my feet.�Or a charging Black Bear. The officers tried scaring the bear toward a nonresidential area by yelling at it and throwing sticks at it, Weiser said. He said the entire incident lasted about an hour.
The bear eventually turned around, but came directly toward the officers. One of them fired a single shot with an AR-15 rifle, killing the bear, Weiser said.I should be wolf hunting instead of playing on the net..Thanx gas prices.. Jayco I am actually pretty comfortable with an AR in Grizzly country. I would not shoot an elk in the shoulder and expect good results. Bear noggins and elk shoulders are very different and ballistic gel ain't either. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/8e49f5bf.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/9a94d0a8.jpg)
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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FWIW, I was on a caribou hunt years ago in the NWT. The Eskimo guide I hunted with had with him an old Remington 700 in .222. There wasn't one bit of bluing on the steel or varnish left on the stock. It had a 4X Leupold with tapered crosshair. He told me that he had killed over 30 Polar Bears and that many grizzly bears with it along with thousands of caribou, moose and muskox....I had no doubt he was telling me the truth. He was a hell of an outdoorsman and ran a skinning knife better than anyone I've ever seen.
Luck....is the residue of design... ![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/96zvyt.gif)
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'Lil John Nice AR and I agree with you on most things other than Berger bullets,especially in an AR aka .223 where penetration is not a given. I haven't had time to get a good picture of mine but I did go outside and snap one on my cell phone..Nothing like yours but it is a Smith and Wesson with less than $700 the way it sits. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/jaycocreek/2012-02-23_13-28-08_648.jpg) I am not 100% sure yet,but I just might go black this year and never look back! Jayco
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Only wimps use the 223, personally I use my 222. I can knock a wart off a gnat with that gun. And we all know accuracy is really the only thing you need to kill an animal
Venor ergo sum
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There 'ya go TX..Accuracy is everything... The .223 is just a 222 AI. Jayco
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There 'ya go TX..Accuracy is everything...
... Accuracy is the main thing but it isn't everything. Further, there is sometimes a discrepancy between desired and actual placement. If accuracy was everything we could all hunt with .22 rimfires and save a lot of money.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Kahuna
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FWIW, I was on a caribou hunt years ago in the NWT. The Eskimo guide I hunted with had with him an old Remington 700 in .222. There wasn't one bit of bluing on the steel or varnish left on the stock. It had a 4X Leupold with tapered crosshair. He told me that he had killed over 30 Polar Bears and that many grizzly bears with it along with thousands of caribou, moose and muskox....I had no doubt he was telling me the truth. He was a hell of an outdoorsman and ran a skinning knife better than anyone I've ever seen. Did he also tell you how many he shot and didn't recover? Not likely and I'll bet the number was high.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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I wouldn't even hesitate to kill an elk with a .223...
I've seen what a 223/TSX does to a cow buffalo, and seen the exit hole, rib in, rib out... Elk ain't any more bullet proof.
The repetitive theme seems to be marginal shots and trying to make up for that with bullet mass. Quit making schitty shots.
"Your range of experience runs that gamut from A to B, plus you're a nitwit. That's a hard combination to overcome, though some people try." - JB
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Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Campfire Ranger
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Do ya drive a Moped on the Interstate
It'll get you there but if things go wrong it won't be a nice thing.
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Back in the 50s a sports writer ran a series of tests on the best cartridge for shooting through brush. and he did it in a way to prove wich ones would give the best group. the .270 150 grain cartridge did the best the worst were the large 45 calibers and the high speed .224 calibers.and I believe he did an excellant job at it.he used wooden dowls arranged in the same pattern for all the shots.
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Huh, I'm not following...?
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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IMO:
The title..."Elk and the .223.Why not?"
Answer..In several states it is not even legal and it is a small bore designed for varmints or wimmpy creatures like humans.
The body of the post..if a .243 is an elk killing machine why not the .223 etc.etc..
Answer..if the .243 was an elk killing machine then you could make that argument..if a 22-250 is a coyote killing machine, then why not a .223, then why not a .222, then why not a .22 hornet, then why not a 22mag, then why not a 22 lr and i'll skip the 22 long and just get right to the short !
No SERIOUS elk hunters think a .243 is a elk killing machine.
If a .243 was and elk killing machine then yes, why not the .223 ? Let me know when we get down to the .22 short cause it will kill and elk also, likely even fronm a 2" snub nose pistol..go right through the orbitable socket just so the odds will make it better for a clean kill if thats a consideration..
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Chuck Norris hunts elk with a .223rem.
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Chuck Norris hunts elk with a .223rem. I thought Chuck just gave them a flying kick?
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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chuck told me theres no difference between doctor Kavorkian and the taliban w/a knife and a video camera..either way you end up dead so whats the big deal ?
Hard to argue with that logic....
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IMO:
The title..."Elk and the .223.Why not?"
Answer..In several states it is not even legal and it is a small bore designed for varmints or wimmpy creatures like humans.
The body of the post..if a .243 is an elk killing machine why not the .223 etc.etc..
Answer..if the .243 was an elk killing machine then you could make that argument..if a 22-250 is a coyote killing machine, then why not a .223, then why not a .222, then why not a .22 hornet, then why not a 22mag, then why not a 22 lr and i'll skip the 22 long and just get right to the short !
No SERIOUS elk hunters think a .243 is a elk killing machine.
If a .243 was and elk killing machine then yes, why not the .223 ? Let me know when we get down to the .22 short cause it will kill and elk also, likely even fronm a 2" snub nose pistol..go right through the orbitable socket just so the odds will make it better for a clean kill if thats a consideration.. TOTALLY AGREE Good Job
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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The funny thing about most guys in the 223 killing crowd, all use other cartridges also. If the 223 was such a great killing machine then why would they use anything else? Why not sell all their other firearms that are not chambered in 223?
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I am pretty sure everyone who said the .223 would work also said it was a limited range affair and compared it to other limited range types of hunting, ie bow hunting or muzzle loaded hunting. I have heard rumors that most western states are now considering having special AR-15 elk seasons for the use of rifles like Jayco�s. These hunts would be during the rut and most likely overlap existing bow and muzzle loaded season to offer all the new owners of such guns a chance to use them. From what I have read barrel lengths will be a max of 16 inches and magazines must be able to hold a minimum of 20 rounds to be legal. Contact your local game and fish to show your support.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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"It's not about headstamps, it's placement", "It's all about the type of bullet, use Barnes TSX", I haven't read the entire thread but have heard these types of statements many times on the campfire. I've not heard the word "limitations" by the hardcore 223 advocates. I guess that if a guy wanted to limit his shots you could take that to the 22LR but I'll take every advantage the law allows within reason.
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Comparing the 223 to a 22LR is ridiculous.
A 223 is what it is, but I cannot equate a 40gr lead bullet at 1200 fps, with a 70gr TSX at 2900 fps.
If you can, well, I believe you.
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Mr Burns brought up the "limitations" issue. You can take that to any extreme you want to. Would you not consider a 22LR a limiting factor when elk hunting?
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Bottom line a .223 will kill an elk but the difference is more than 0.019 diameter.
Using the previous example provided
.223/ 62 gr - at 3100 fps carries a kinetic energy of 1323 ft/lbs
.243/ 95 gr - at 2980 fps carries a kinetic energy of 1873 ft/lbs
There's 42% more energy being imparted on the elk between a 243 and a 223.
Deal with it.
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I haven't read the entire thread but have heard these types of statements many times on the campfire. I am always amazed at someone who admits they don�t have any interest in other opinions but feel everyone needs to hear theirs.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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I haven't read the entire thread but have heard these types of statements many times on the campfire. I am always amazed at someone who admits they don�t have any interest in other opinions but feel everyone needs to hear theirs. OK John, I'll read the thread and see if it changes my mind. For the record, no one is compelled to read my opinion. It's an open forum. OK, I wasted my time reading the entire thread and it did nothing to change my mind.
Last edited by M7300SAUM; 02/24/12. Reason: Response after reading entire thread.
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Mr Burns brought up the "limitations" issue. You can take that to any extreme you want to. Would you not consider a 22LR a limiting factor when elk hunting? I can't compare the 22LR with the 223, any more seriously than I would compare a 25ACP with a 25-06. I'm just funny like that.
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Comparing the 223 to a 22LR is ridiculous.
A 223 is what it is, but I cannot equate a 40gr lead bullet at 1200 fps, with a 70gr TSX at 2900 fps.
If you can, well, I believe you. I've killed a pretty big pile of deer with a .22LR. Somehow I doubt Elk with a .223 would be any more difficult. Course if you're one who needs to shoot 700 yds. I can see it being a different story.
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What HAVE you killed with a 223, and how many times have you been in on the blood spillin when it comes to wapiti?
"Your range of experience runs that gamut from A to B, plus you're a nitwit. That's a hard combination to overcome, though some people try." - JB
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What HAVE you killed with a 223, and how many times have you been in on the blood spillin when it comes to wapiti? I've been killing elk since the early 60's with real guns Bill.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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What Wyatt Earp said............
Luck....is the residue of design...
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I've been killing elk since the early 60's with real guns Bill.
And somehow you STILL think they're bullet proof... Learn how to get closer or how to shoot, cause if you've been doing it for 50 years and couldn't do it with a 223 you suck and need a new hobby. Buffalo didn't make it 50 yards, and was shot by an autistic 12 year old, BTW. ![[Linked Image]](http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad268/boxerluvjen/thefinger.gif)
"Your range of experience runs that gamut from A to B, plus you're a nitwit. That's a hard combination to overcome, though some people try." - JB
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For the long time Elk hunters here,how many have seen the 25-35 used on Elk and even more controversial in it's day,the .250-3000.. The .250-3000,maybe the first high velocity .25 caliber hit 3000 fps with an 87 grain bullet..WOW!!!!! Yup,times have changed and bullets have got alot better and yes,the 25-35 and .250 Savage of old,killed Elk as does the 30-30 and other rounds not known for penetration but in the hands of experienced hunters,knocked em' dead with the bullets of old. With todays bullets known for penetration, like the TSX makes in my opinion,them equal to in a smaller caliber with equal penetration of the old warhorses of years ago. Jayco
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I have heard rumors that most western states are now considering having special AR-15 elk seasons for the use of rifles like Jayco�s. These hunts would be during the rut and most likely overlap existing bow and muzzle loaded season to offer all the new owners of such guns a chance to use them. Lil' John We can use them now so why would we need a special hunt?Any weapon means any weapon including the .223.. Besides I like your idea,who would pass up an opportunity to get all dressed up in our GI Joe costumes in full camo or even better,black and hit the hills with multiple 30-round mags going after Elk in the rut... I think I still have E-3 patches from the Army and AF and I could loan you one if you wished to participate in Idaho's first GI Joe hunt. I do like your brand of humor though! Jayco 
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I've been killing elk since the early 60's with real guns Bill.
And somehow you STILL think they're bullet proof... Learn how to get closer or how to shoot, cause if you've been doing it for 50 years and couldn't do it with a 223 you suck and need a new hobby. Buffalo didn't make it 50 yards, and was shot by an autistic 12 year old, BTW. Last year I killed one at 50 yds with a Hawken and round ball. I'm a still hunter and I know how to get close. It's the only way I hunt. I never said they're bullet proof. I do find it fun to rag on guys who shoot .223's though. You're all so sensitive, and have no sense of humor. Shoot a gun with more than 3 lbs of recoil, and you won't have to defend it all the time.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Haven't read what everybody is yaking about. A .223 is MORE than adequate to cleanly take an elk. But when they are on a dead run, straight away, at 400 yards, better hope you don't have a 223, not even with a 20round magazine. Thankfully I had a big can of whoopass here.. What's that saying? 3 in the ass is better than one in the grass.. ![[Linked Image]](http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/Half_Track/JUNK2/krbull_2011.jpg)
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MH
How do you like the penetration you get with a round ball out of your Hawken..I only have a Thompson 50 cal and the penetration a round ball gives is not good,in my opinion.I would bet the .223/30-30 would way out penetrate the soft old round ball.
Some are so soft that when sticking one, my bullet puller pulled out of the soft lead round ball.Idaho quit letting us use sabots leaving us with either the round ball or conical..Boo.
If you have a bullet that will penetrate decently and you put that bullet where it belongs,you have dead animals.
Jayco
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MH
How do you like the penetration you get with a round ball out of your Hawken..I only have a Thompson 50 cal and the penetration a round ball gives is not good,in my opinion.I would bet the .223/30-30 would way out penetrate the soft old round ball.
Some are so soft that when sticking one, my bullet puller pulled out of the soft lead round ball.Idaho quit letting us use sabots leaving us with either the round ball or conical..Boo.
If you have a bullet that will penetrate decently and you put that bullet where it belongs,you have dead animals.
Jayco To be honest. This year will be the first year I try a .50 cal flintlock for elk. I've used a .54 in the past. Up to 50 yds it has enough penetration to get through both lungs. That's a big hole, and they don't go far. My guns have slow twist barrels, and i'm committed to a PRB. Yours has a 1-48 twist, and will shoot conicals. If you have doubts about a PRB. Shoot a 400gr conical, and you'll knock an elk on it's butt.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Haven't read what everybody is yaking about. A .223 is MORE than adequate to cleanly take an elk. But when they are on a dead run, straight away, at 400 yards, better hope you don't have a 223, not even with a 20round magazine. Thankfully I had a big can of whoopass here.. What's that saying? 3 in the ass is better than one in the grass.. I didn't see your post or I wouldn't have posted...I think that saying you was after is:(referring to rifles only) Once you go black there's no going back Jayco
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That was last fall's MT elk, 3 in the ass, none in the grass. That's how I roll.
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Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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A guy's got to have his fetishes
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Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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If the ass is all I've got, I'm going to take it. That's why I don't hunt with a .223 since I have a choice.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I guess the 223 would work if using the TSX Bullet. If i was hungry enough i would wait until it snowed, then shoot one in the lungs and sit down and wait for a while to give it time to stop and fall over . Track it in the snow and then have supper. Elk are big animals and varmint rifles just aren't the best choice, period.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Not every thing that can be done is necessarily a good idea.
Member of the Merry Band of turdlike People.
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If the ass is all I've got, I'm going to take it. That's why I don't hunt with a .223 since I have a choice. Good policy, and not just limited to the hunting of wildlife. Looking forward to your bear pics this spring so I can hate you further. Travis
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If the ass is all I've got, I'm going to take it. That's why I don't hunt with a .223 since I have a choice. If one has to shoot em' in the azz where all the meat is,that's where the .223 shines..Green Tip steel penetrating non-expanding rounds. Eyes never shootz anythang in the beast eating part! Spray and pray... Jayco
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Logsplitter, That elk might have lived another day had I been toting a .223 as there's no way I'd have taken a shot. No hesitation with the old meat in the pot, AKA "The Azzhole" laying in that photo. You should take a close look & learn to recognize greatness. By the way, I've a sweet .223.
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You should take a close look & learn to recognize greatness. What can I say to a comment like that other than,you fly like a butterfly and sting like a bee...Your the greatest of all time and shame your elders in greatness and anyone else that walks in your tracks... Did I leave anything out? Jayco
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I've never killed anything bigger than a whitetail with my 22-250 pushing 80gr A-Maxes......But those Elk...I think I'd use a bit more calibre. Maybe one day I'll get a chance to try.
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no one comes to the Father but by me. John 14:6
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Anyone who is such a wimp that they can't handle anything bigger than a 223 has no business hunting Elk. Where we hunt, other animals also live, that a 223 would just pizz off. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/madgrizzlybeara.jpg)
Hey NSAQAM, Larry is very "IN", LOL
You also dishonor the 28th division by using the unit patch as an insult.
As for the liar, welcher Bricktop, his day is fast approaching.
Coward trolls won't accept PMs.
How's the phantom "campfire" coming ?
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I think he needs to see his dentist....
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no one comes to the Father but by me. John 14:6
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It's got blueberry tongue.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Across the country .223 is the BARE minimum caliber for whitetail. In some states it's .243. The average deer weighs 150-175 pounds, the average elk around 600-650 pounds.
Yes of course it will kill them, but who knows how long it could take. It could be instant or the elk may run off and die from infection even worse... coyotes, wolves or bears catch up to it since it is too weak to run off.
Simply put, you need to respect the animal your after.
Case in point, humans aren't as tough as big game animals when shot. The 5.56 has been used in the military since Vietnam, BUT ask most combat vets if they wish they had more killing power, frontal area, etc. and the answer would be a resounding YES. Think about it... the 6.8 SPC was designed from the ground up to compete with and beat ballistically the 7.62x39 cartridge because of the lack of knockdown power the 5.56 had.
I'm elk hunting for the first time this year and nothing smaller than a 260 will go with me. More than likely it'll be my 350 Rem Mag.
Drink and be merry for soldiers die for your freedoms.
Semper Fidelis!
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Larry,
you guys just surround him. Whichever one he grips, is just not there...
Like you do it here.
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Case in point, humans aren't as tough as big game animals when shot. The 5.56 has been used in the military since Vietnam, BUT ask most combat vets if they wish they had more killing power, frontal area, etc. and the answer would be a resounding YES. Think about it... the 6.8 SPC was designed from the ground up to compete with and beat ballistically the 7.62x39 cartridge because of the lack of knockdown power the 5.56 had.
They are using the wrong bullets.
"Be sure you're right. Then go ahead." Fess Parker as Davy Crockett
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The .223 has a lot of momentum around here. It seems to be against the rules to comdemn the use of it regardless of what you are hunting. If you want to stay flame free just applaud the use of the .223 on anything out there. White Rhino at 600 yards? No problem! Go use a .223 on something with a Barnes solid and you will be part of the club.
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I'd like to ask a serious question. Not trolling. Just curious.
Why use a .223 on big game?
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,787 |
Member of the Merry Band of turdlike People.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1 |
Been sitting this one out...will continue to do so...
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 20,379
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 20,379 |
Thanks for not quoting mouser...
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1 |
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295 |
I'm elk hunting for the first time this year and nothing smaller than a 260 will go with me. More than likely it'll be my 350 Rem Mag. And the latter would be a great choice. Jayco
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295 |
How about the .243 for Grizz?Phil Shoemaker thinks it would work with quality bullets.
All the years I guided both sheep and grizzly hunters in the =hugach, Talkeetna and Brooks ranges I never ran across a grizzly that I would have been hesitant to shoot with a .243 Win. with quality bullets. I'm not saying it is what I would choose or recommend but have no doubt I would have been 100% safe from any grizzly in open country.
Then the lowly .223 should kill Elk just dandy,they don't bite back.
Jayco
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,989 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,989 Likes: 1 |
I can see the cattle rancher, waiting on top of his haystack for the elk to come into feed and then popping one in the head while they mill around below making a valid scenario.
I suspect that the majority of guys on here havent used a .223 on elk or even plan to do so, but are just making the point that it is legal in some areas and it will kill elk.
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 20,379
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 20,379 |
Like I said, there's more than a few of us around here, that if the requiremnet presented itself, we'd figure out how to get it done.
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,989 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,989 Likes: 1 |
I like the idea of having to harvest a grizzly with your .243, before you can take an elk with a .223 !!
Keep 'em coming logcutter ! (smile) You must be even more bored then I !!!
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 28,277
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 28,277 |
I'd have no worries about taking a griz with a 243 on decent terms.
They're not that wide, and plenty of them have been taken with a bow. Stick a decent bullet in behind the front shoulder and it'll run a short bit and topple over.
Once again this stuff is rocket science only if one chooses to make it such.
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,087 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,087 Likes: 6 |
If you can't kill an elk with a .223 there is somthing wrong with you, not the cartridge... Just sayin...
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 1 |
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,989 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,989 Likes: 1 |
Understand...and if your cartridge of choice would be the .223, then there would be something wrong with you..Just sayin (smiley face also !)
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,087 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,087 Likes: 6 |
Understand...and if your cartridge of choice would be the .223, then there would be something wrong with you..Just sayin (smiley face also !) . I use a 338 win mag...
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,989 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,989 Likes: 1 |
my rifle of choice for years was a .340 using a bipod...the third time it opened me up from a prone position, I decided it "was to heavy" ! (smile) settle for the wimpy .300's and 7mm's now !
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,123
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,123 |
Case in point, humans aren't as tough as big game animals when shot. The 5.56 has been used in the military since Vietnam, BUT ask most combat vets if they wish they had more killing power, frontal area, etc. and the answer would be a resounding YES. Think about it... the 6.8 SPC was designed from the ground up to compete with and beat ballistically the 7.62x39 cartridge because of the lack of knockdown power the 5.56 had.
They are using the wrong bullets. Well actually they are now starting to use the right bullets. When "Brown Tip" is said that means 70gr X bullets. When MK318 or SOST is said that means the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw without the bonding. When MK262 is said that means the Sierra Match King 77gr HPBT. The US Military most likely has more experienced gun fighters serving now than at any time in history and the overwhelming satisfaction with the 5.56/.223 as a fighting round in the units that have the most gun fighting experience is well known. When UBL got his door kicked down the fellows that kicked the door and subsequently gave him one to the chest and one to the head had a lot of latitude in selecting the cartridge they were going to use and the 5.56/.223 was the choice. The resulting case of "canoe head" was the cause of much controversy and was the excuse used to not show the world pictures of his dead body. The .223 has a lot of momentum around here. It seems to be against the rules to comdemn the use of it regardless of what you are hunting. If you want to stay flame free just applaud the use of the .223 on anything out there. White Rhino at 600 yards? No problem! Go use a .223 on something with a Barnes solid and you will be part of the club. I guess I missed the part where anybody in the entire thread recommended the .223 as a great elk cartridge. Seems I read a lot of �limited range�, �stay off the shoulder�, �place it in the armpit�, and also a lot of comparison to muzzle loaders and �stuff used in days gone by�. No one here has ever said the .223 was a good choice for a general elk hunt but most of the experienced elk hunters have said it would not be a daunting task to go fill an elk tag with a .223 and a proper bullet. Nobody has said it would be their first choice except as a way to add some challenge to a hunt in the same way a muzzle loader or archery equipment adds challenge. I'd like to ask a serious question. Not trolling. Just curious.
Why use a .223 on big game? Why use a bow? Why use a muzzle loaded? Why use a revolver? I think Logcutter got himself a new black gun and it has all these crazy ideas swirling in his noggin. I must admit I almost got a cow tag in NM this year to go get one with a 16 inch AR. I may have to make it happen this year.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,087 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,087 Likes: 6 |
Case in point, humans aren't as tough as big game animals when shot. The 5.56 has been used in the military since Vietnam, BUT ask most combat vets if they wish they had more killing power, frontal area, etc. and the answer would be a resounding YES. Think about it... the 6.8 SPC was designed from the ground up to compete with and beat ballistically the 7.62x39 cartridge because of the lack of knockdown power the 5.56 had.
They are using the wrong bullets. Well actually they are now starting to use the right bullets. When "Brown Tip" is said that means 70gr X bullets. When MK318 or SOST is said that means the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw without the bonding. When MK262 is said that means the Sierra Match King 77gr HPBT. The US Military most likely has more experienced gun fighters serving now than at any time in history and the overwhelming satisfaction with the 5.56/.223 as a fighting round in the units that have the most gun fighting experience is well known. When UBL got his door kicked down the fellows that kicked the door and subsequently gave him one to the chest and one to the head had a lot of latitude in selecting the cartridge they were going to use and the 5.56/.223 was the choice. The resulting case of "canoe head" was the cause of much controversy and was the excuse used to not show the world pictures of his dead body. The .223 has a lot of momentum around here. It seems to be against the rules to comdemn the use of it regardless of what you are hunting. If you want to stay flame free just applaud the use of the .223 on anything out there. White Rhino at 600 yards? No problem! Go use a .223 on something with a Barnes solid and you will be part of the club. I guess I missed the part where anybody in the entire thread recommended the .223 as a great elk cartridge. Seems I read a lot of �limited range�, �stay off the shoulder�, �place it in the armpit�, and also a lot of comparison to muzzle loaders and �stuff used in days gone by�. No one here has ever said the .223 was a good choice for a general elk hunt but most of the experienced elk hunters have said it would not be a daunting task to go fill an elk tag with a .223 and a proper bullet. Nobody has said it would be their first choice except as a way to add some challenge to a hunt in the same way a muzzle loader or archery equipment adds challenge. I'd like to ask a serious question. Not trolling. Just curious.
Why use a .223 on big game? Why use a bow? Why use a muzzle loaded? Why use a revolver? I think Logcutter got himself a new black gun and it has all these crazy ideas swirling in his noggin. I must admit I almost got a cow tag in NM this year to go get one with a 16 inch AR. I may have to make it happen this year. Make it happen John. I'd like to see the video of you using it with a 30 round mag, tracers, and fmj's.....Sounds great
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,123
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,123 |
I was more thinking 75gr SSII, a ten round mag and 1 or 2 shots.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,087 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,087 Likes: 6 |
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,936
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,936 |
John Nosler said once that a 225 winchester, while capable of taking a deer, was not the right choice. It's great stuff, can you kill with the 22 cal, sure, but I believe it is a question of ethics. We owe it to the animal to insure an ethical kill. Also, while one may be able to do it, Fifty others cant. Common sense tells you not to, at least it does for me. As for a lion with the 22 rimfire, with five dogs surrounding the tree, great, but if you are the lone ranger doing the shooting with no backup, I sure want something bigger than a 22 rimfire for lions. Finally, I strongly suspect the ones who do use 22 cal for big game have all lost game before, they just wont tell you about it.
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 580
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 580 |
You could use a spoon to dig a grave but a back hoe works better.
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 20,379
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 20,379 |
John Nosler said once that a 225 winchester, while capable of taking a deer, was not the right choice. It's great stuff, can you kill with the 22 cal, sure, but I believe it is a question of ethics. We owe it to the animal to insure an ethical kill. Also, while one may be able to do it, Fifty others cant. Common sense tells you not to, at least it does for me. As for a lion with the 22 rimfire, with five dogs surrounding the tree, great, but if you are the lone ranger doing the shooting with no backup, I sure want something bigger than a 22 rimfire for lions. Finally, I strongly suspect the ones who do use 22 cal for big game have all lost game before, they just wont tell you about it. I've lost game with a .30-06.. What was your point again?
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
I've never lost a critter with a 223AI. Not saying I'd use it for elk, just saying.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,076
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,076 |
John Nosler said once that a 225 winchester, while capable of taking a deer, was not the right choice.... Was that before, or after, Nosler introduced the 60gr Partition?
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