Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Savage Lapua is ridiculous

FWIW...Today I finally got centered on the target and a couple over the Beta.

Horn 285 BTHP, 92gr H1000/100% load density at 3.71" COAL - 0.015" off lands for this bullet, ~2745 fs for two rounds. QL listed 2706 fs at 57530 PSI. That matches closely to Hornady's manual listing of 89.6 H1000, a COAL of 3.625"" and 24.5" bbl when run through QL.

I went a bit over on the powder for the 5 on the target and the cases stuck...I was using a slightly longer COAL initially input into QL. When I rechecked QL the pressure was over 65KPSI so I will compare these Hornady cases with Lapua brass when it gets here. COAL can cause a bunch of messups when you/I get cross-eyed.

I also ran into a couple of problems...the brass extracter lip that grabs the case rim was VERY slightly short and misshaped so it wouldn't hold a stuck case...it just popped off every time. I swapped in another extractor and that solved that problem...it grabbed the cases well enough to pull slightly stuck cases.

And the chamber at the base end needs to be roughed up a bit...it's polished way to much or not enough and grabs the cases too tightly...the point is right at the junction of the case web where most of the expansion occurs and is measured...that might also be a product of the Hornady Brass....Lapua brass is an additional 0.050" thicker through the base at that point and the web is thicker also.

Weather is going south again...time to clean the bore, maybe polish the throat a bit, I can feel some roughness after only ~50 rounds beginning just in front of the chamber. I will also load up 10 rounds with the newer Berger 300gr Hybrid Tactical fancy-shmancies.



First shot high, left...adjust down 5", second shot 5" below, adjusted 1" down, 1" right..."fire for effect"...the 3 final rounds were 3/4" CC, 1" Targedot, rounds moved right to left and up each shot. Front coming in, the wind was all over the place gusting Zero to ~30 knots, but those few rounds told me what I wanted to know.

saw one of these on sale yesterday for $1050ish(under $1100 anyways).......really wish i had the cash......can really stretch one of these out where i live.....

Buds Gunshop online has them for ~$950 free shipping, plus whatever FFL fee...cheapest I've seen.

At the risk of tar and feathers, I would like to suggest the Savage, while looking "tactical cool", offers little of real advantage.

338 Winchester 300 gr bullet 24" bbl 2450 fps
338 Lapua 300 gr bullet 24" bbl (like the Savage) 2680 fps (you can't count the brake in the bbl length)

So all that extra powder gets you 230 fps.

338 Winchester picks up at least 35 fps/inch over 24" so at worst a 31" barreled 338 Winchester would equal the short barreled Savage. If you took your #1 in 338 Winchester and rebarreled it with a 31" tube, it would equal the Savage and last far longer. It would also have no longer AOL, than the Imperial storm troopers Savage.

Now if you got a sophisticated 3 groove nitrided barrel, well even better.

I'd bet a steak dinner that my current build (Savage single shot match action, F Class stock, 34" 3 groove nitrided barrel in 338 RUM) will outrun the 10/110 BA by at least 3-400 fps. If you want one contact: http://www.savagegunsmithing.com/Accurizing_Savage_Rifles.html

Way back when the 300 H&H was the hot number, both Winchester and Remington figured out a 26" barrel was appropriate on the sporting models, and 28" on the M70 Bull Gun. (I won't mention how much faster this 60 year old rifle is than the current "hot" 24" 300 WSMs.)

Rifles designed to kill people, paper or steel at extreme ranges do not need short barrels.

Ancient but still a bug shooter:

Sweet scope... is that 2012 Leupold?

Lets get the facts RIGHT....My Savage Long Range 111338 Lapua barrel measures 26", NOT INCLUDING THE BRAKE....26", NOT 24". I bought it for the longer action, accutriger and stock, and BIG clip...AND PRICE...NOT any "cool factor" it may or maynot have.

You have a nice rifle there and I see you're proud of it...BUT...compare equals to equals THEN bet your dinner otherwise you might go broke buying dinners.

The RUM case is ALMOST equal to the Lapua case, but NOT QUITE...the advantage will always go to the larger case as long as ALL THE REST OF THE PARAMETERS ARE HELD EQUAL.

This is not dissing the RUM in any way...this is doing the tree apples to road apples thing again and again...and the only way to actuall prove anything is to use ONE rifle and ONE barrel and just rechamber.

If you are adament about proving something, the go do the tests and present it to the masses...I've done this a couple of times already in the distant past so I know the answer already.

ONLY 230fs difference...You're saying 230fs doesn't offer "any real advantange"???...???...you need to check out what 230fs does to the energy level...You seem to have forgotten that energy increases at the SQUARE of the velocity.

That difference in velo equates to ~780ftlbs of energy difference...I think that might be considered somewhat of a "REAL ADVANTAGE" by some.

When I equate my last posts chrono'ed velo at 26" - 2745fs run through QL equated to a 34" tube, the velo climbs to almost 2900fs...with the SAME LOAD, NO changes except barrel length...and I can get a bit more velo by doing some work with the different powders.

WHY does every one need to do the comparison garbage???????

I DO agree with you that long range rifles need long tubes to be most effective, basically by increasing the amount of time the gases act on the bullet.

If you REALLY want some pizzaz...hang a 48" tube...that will get you to ~3050fs or a 60 incher - ~3150fs...How long do you want to go???

I think a blown out Gibbs case would be the better way to go, then you have near 200 gr H20 to work with...almost TWICE the case volume. Going to a full length Rigby 2.85" case, the same length as the RUM case will get you about 15% MORE case volume than the standard Lapua with a simple rechamber.

But this is getting REALLY RIDICULOUS, isn't it.

Using the same bullet I used...QL gives 2847fs, at top pressure for the RUM with H1000, but at 106% load density, for your 34" bbl...2702fs adjusted to 26".

If you adjust for a 100% load like my Lapua load, QL gives 2701fs at 52KPSIfor 34"...~2550fs adjusted to 26" bbl. Your numbers may be different.

I really don't know what this "proves" in reality or actuality, if it proves anything at all...other than mixing tree apples and road apples might give your taste buds a nasty shock when you bite into the wrong "apple".

Just enjoy your toy and leave off the comparing...there ALWAYS will be a "greater than" and a "lesser than"...object... somewhere out there that will make you smile or frown...ain't no thang, Bro.

230FPS is allot...

just saying...

............You don`t plan on taking that rifle hunting do you? A rifle with a 34" barrel with an OAL of over 50", not to mention the added weight, you would take on a hunt? If so, more power to ya. You may need it.

For hunting, I`d gladly sacrifice some barrel length, less overall rifle length along with less velocity and have a better carrying rig.

A 34" tube length gets ya 2800+ with a 300 grainer shooting a 338 RUM uh? Nothing wrong with that. That`s great.

I should try some 300 grainers and see what they can do out of my 48" long 338-378 Accumark with its 28" barrel including the brake.....Should get 2750-2800 with no problem.

Decided to take a look on the Savage site and check out the OPs 338 Lapua. Looks like a real nice rig.

I also noticed a couple of other interesting rifles new for `012. The Savage Alaskan Brush Hunter and the Savage Bear Hunter.

And what`s this? Both are offered in the 375 Ruger? Why,,,has Savage lost their minds? How could Savage chamber a round that was predicted by many over the past several years to go bye bye? Them idiots.....LOL!

i asked about the velo's of the 250 sierra's, because i'm getting right at 3,050 from my 27" without brake, 338 rum.

Never get these posts. I've shot enough big game with big calibers, and I've yet to see teh amount of damage I got from small fast calibers with small fast bullets.

I suspect its both bullet choice and shot placement though too that makes a difference.

Most of the "normal" powders for these size cases, IMR7828, RL22, H1000, MRP give ~2900fs at the Pmax MAP for a 27" bbl.

There is always a variation in calculated and actual chono'ed velos and variation in the numbers the various Chrono's output.

I don't really get excited about chrono'ed velos except as a qualifier between what is published/expected/software data and what my chrono says...unless those numbers don't match up fairly close or within statistical variations. When that happens I get to moving a bit quicker than usual...SOMETHING ISN'T KOSHER. Some of that velo stuff is just WillyWaving, anyway.

My targets tell me what is going on and I can calculate ACTUAL BC and velo from the drop differences between various ranges.

I have a early 60's Oehler 33 and a 4 year old Beta Chrony stacked one in front of the other...they both always show different numbers from the same shot...the Beta is always about 50 fs faster even when using a 22 rifle to calibrate...the Oehler is always very close to published velos and stays within a few fs of what it showed from a long list of calibration shots with the same 63 year old Rem semi using different ammo over the years. The only time things get out of whack is when the batteries drop off from use or cold. One of these days I'm going to do something about that.

Brakes don't usually make any difference in velo other than "normal" variation between shots...

Yea-ya...I had a hard time deciding which of those to buy...the 375 Ruger is listed but I haven't seen OR heard of any except at the big gun shows...not for sale, just to fondle and my local gunshop couldn't get one, and the word was "not for several more months", otherwise I would be working out TWO Savages right now instead of one and the 375 RUM would wait another few months... I have a Sav LA 375 H&H that will soon be a 375 RUM, but I think one of those center feed clip type Savages would be mighty fine to have anyway.

Too many toys...not enought time or money.

Is that vinegar I smell???

No it's pasture stuff. But why burst the bubble.

Lapua 113 gr H20 (6mmBR site)
338 RUM 113 gr H20 (Wiki)

Could I take a 34" barrel hunting ? Why not ? The kind of hunting done with it would be like killing dumb ragheads who don't know you are there. i.e. NOT hunting, just target shooting using live animals.

Not charging a MG nest or stalking so close to an Elk you can smell him.

That ya'll need to do is stop with the "proving" krap and use actual real numbers...I have yet to find data that is posted on some site or forum to be what I ACTUALLY found by water weighing the cases ACTUALLY fired in the rifle I'm working with. Don't be going down that road...I have a few DOZEN rifles I BUILT including standards and wildcats, from 17 to 73 cal, with barrel lengths from 16.5 to 32" and NOT ONE SET OF CASES I EVER WATER WEIGHED to find an average, EVER weighted what SEVERAL SOURCES listed...EVERY SET AND EVERY CHAMBER came up with a different average number.

I've been at this game half a century and while I don't claim to be ANY SORT of expert, the information I'm posting is accurate from specific rifle data. If you can't understand the nuances or are so blind to what information I'm giving that's YOUR failing, and you WON'T learn doodly until you get out of that mindless "I'M right, YOUR wrong" rut.

MY 20 Hornady brand 338 LM H2O fired case capacity ran from ~116.8 to ~117.4 gr for an average H2O or ~117.1 gr H2O just what I posted back a bit.

MY 338 RUM, Rem brand, UNFIRED, 2.755" measured 110 gr H2O average for 5 cases and I can guarantee a fired case capacity will be more, but just how much depends on whether the chamber is SAAMI minimum or larger, the case brand AND the case trimmed length.

QL lists 110 gr H20 for a 2.76" 338 RUM case, no brand specified, and Load from a Disk lists 106.91 gr H20. 2.76", and I'm sure you could find other weights if you dug around hard enough just to "prove" something, although I'm not sure what it would be.

338 LM, QL-108 gr H20, LD-114.88 gr H20, Wiki-114 gr H2O...

So what's the point? There IS NO POINT. Case capacity variation is a well know fact.

Case volume information posted on the various locations is just a NON ABSOLUTE average for maybe ONE brand of case, who knows how many were used and/or that the case length was, and is useful ONLY if you understand HOW to use the data.

This bit of info seems to keep blowing right over the heads of MANY in their rush to be "right" or to "prove" something.

All this mindlessness about case capacity variation doesn't mean more than a small part in the overall development of a SPECIFIC RIFLE'S POTENTIAL anyway...and it only has a small part in the average velocity of a given rifle OR it's accuracy for that matter.

You also need to realize and understand that MANY very experienced long range shooters in the "olden, 'golden' days" hunted with long barreled rifles...at one time 28" was my minimum barrel length, others I hunted with used 30-32", and one had a 36", but anything over about 30" ran into other problems related to length.

My 45-120 is 30" long PLUS a 3" MB and my 50-90 Sharps is 34", most of my large cals have 26" plus a 2-3" MB on some. They're definitely not good for hunting in thick brush where a bellygun would have trouble, but I have relatively little trouble hunting in "dog hair" lodgepole pine woods with my "Long Toms".

Enjoy whatever rifle you have, be proud of what it DOES DO, and don't try to make an ant hill OR a nice shooting rifle into something it ISN'T...

Agree 100%. The myth of the brush gun, just won't go away. If you hunt in crap that thick, you're better off with a 12 Bore shotgun. Been there done that....it works.

I got 3,025 average with the .340 Weatherby. At the time it matched the factory velocity. I used aobut 90 grains of 7828.

NFG,

YOu have a very good post, there. Knowing case capacity is a wonderful thing for the wildcater, though. By knowing it he has some idea of where to start his load work up.

For a 340 WBY, ~100 gr case volume, 3.675" COAL, 90 GR 7828, 250 gr Sierra MK, QL comes up with 3209 fs at 89,427 PSI...going to a 250 Woodleigh PP dropped the PSI down to about 75KPSI. No way to figure what the pressures are with the contributions of the longer throat except by a transducer on the actual rifle.

Th 338 RUM is about 10% larger in case volume and QL comes up with ~2982 fs and 68542 PSI for the same exact load/COAL...roughly 5000 PSI OVER SAAMI PMAX MAP for that cartridge. You can see just what case volume can do to velo and pressure.

90 gr is also OVER THE LIMITS in all my reloading books by several grains depending on the bullet brand.

Each rifle does it's own thing. You CAN'T generalize too much. You just have to balance the factors and decide if 50-100 extra fs is worth the costs. Nothing is cast in stone in this sport.

My 0.600" long throated 338-06 requires ~4 more grains of 4230 powder just to equal published velos from various magazine sources for this cartridge, and a tad more puts me very close to WM velos with 225 gr Hornady SP's without any pressure signs, but I still only run it at ~2750fs which is about right for a 225 gr bullet and all that's needed and the 50 cases I started with originally way the heck back has been reduced to 47 because the chamber was cut with 0.022" excess headspace. I killed those 3 cases before I figured out "what the he..??" Those original cases have been reloaded at least 20 times each and show no sign of head separation, but the case walls are getting thinnner all the time. I also polished out the sizer die so the base is only squished 0.002" and the expander ball for a 0.002" bullet grip. I use a 0.020" plus Redding competition shell holder now, but I used a 0.020" steel horse shoe around the case between the shell holder and the sizer for many years.

Cases stretch ~0.002" per firing, but that totals ~0.040" for 20 shots per...that brass had to come from SOME PLACE...usually the web but also from the case walls...brass is soft and flows like hot melted butter under pressure.

Case capacity is/was one of the only ways to come up with loads in the days before the net...back when the only way to caclulate things was with Powleys cardboard "slipstick", some fairly complicated and none too accurate formulas or "by guess and by golly". Things could get a bit sticky now and then...the powders were OK by not a great range of brands OR burn rates...and reading pressure by what the primer looked like, the lift of the bolt(or use of a soft hammer), measuring base expansion etc, was about as good as reading the entrails or blood spatter of an excized chicken head.

Basically time teaches that while most of the information concerning reloading is valid and true, it ISN'T uniformly extended to every application and you have to learn what, how and where the data is mis-used or mis-applied...it's NOT that the data is false, it's the INCORRECT APPLICATION of the data without thought to the full ramifications. Listening to the mantra, chanting along, needing to be "in the cloud", or CROWD, turns you into a zombie.

Just look what the cell phone does to people...a BEAUTIFUL piece of technology, just like the 'puter, but look what it does to your life...IF YOU LET IT...I'm old school, technology is MY servant, not the other way around. I don't answer ANY phone unless I want to, that's the answering machines job...and the cell phone is only for emergency use...and stays off.

"We've come a long way, Babe" as the saying goes.

Just about ANY pump or auto or double 12 is my choice for close in work. I have a 3" Mossy 500 and a 3.5" Mossy 535 with the OEM 18.5" bbls, filled with Terminator slugs, Tri-balls and my own 900 gr turned brass slugs, all accurate enough out to ~125yds to stay in 6". Sage ratz don't stand a chance, one by one....hahahahaha.

Purpose:
I want to use Quickload and Quicktarget and my hunting and practicing experiences to compare the 338 and 7mmRM cartridges.
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Assumptions:
8 moa elevation adjustment for a big game hunting shot is the limit.
1800 fps minimum for good bullet expansion.
10 pounds rifle weight is the threshold of too heavy.
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Independent variables:
70,000 psi peak pressure
scope 2" above barrel bore
barrel 26" long
Pick best Hodgdon extreme powder
200 yard zero
338s use 250 gr Nosler Partition Gold boat tail bullets
7mm use 150 gr Nosler Ballistic tip boat tail bullets
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Dependent variables
338 Lapua Mag 90.3 gr H4381sc 2945 fps, 515 yards down 8moa, 647 yards 1800 fps
338 Rem Ultra 89.2 gr H4381sc, 2901 fps, 507 yards down 8 moa, 625 yards 1800 fps
338 Winche Mag 69.4 gr H4350, 2773 fps, 492 yards down 8moa, 560 yards 1800 fps
7mmRem Mag 70.3 gr H4381sc, 3250 fps, 582 yards down 8moa, 822 yards 1800 fps
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Discussion and analysis:
I can get good accuracy with the 7mmRemMag at 10 pounds rifle, scope, bipod, and ammo when shooting 150 gr.
The 338s should do as well at 16.7 pounds when shooting 250 gr.
Maybe the 338s do not need to be that heavy, because they do not need to be as accurate, because they can not shoot as far.
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Conclusion:
I not hunt long range with my 338s.
I will instead hunt long range with my 7mmRM rifles.