Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Gelatin Testing Last Week... Bad News for 380 Lovers...

Lotsa hoopla on the net about whether that stuff is all hype. I've wanted to do some testing with RBCD but haven't had the opportunity, RBCD anyway. I didn't think Glasers were still made, that was the early Air Marshall ammo. Mag Safe I know nothing about.

I would not go near either load with a ten foot pole. The weakest link in the 380's forte' is penetration. Those lightweight fast expanding or even blow up designed (GLazer) bullets are going to be penetration pipqueaks.

Take_a_knee,

There is more to guns than killing things. I like to play with stuff and compare stuff. I think I got the six boxes of RBCD for about $100. There are twenty rounds in a box. The Mag-Saf is $22 for a bubble pack of eight. By the way my wife's Walther PK.380 loves the accuracy with the Mag-Safe. She bought it because it was cute.

As far as the RBCD ammo goes I can give you some water jug testing results.

I purchased six boxes; .380, .40, .45, and .44 mag. They pay shipping if you buy six boxes; mix or match caliber. Also I purchsed six buble packs of Mag-Safe three for the .380 and two for the .40 and my Freedom Arms .454 in addition to two boxes of Remington 88 grainers in .380 caliber.

My son-in-law right away got after some one gallon juice jugs filled with water. The .40, .45, and .44 mag were devistating. The .40 and .45 litterally blew up the first two jugs throwing fragments up to thirty feet away. The bullets fragmented and particles were found in at least three jugs. The .44 mag destroyed three jugs and went through the fourth. In all of the above tests only fragmented pieces of the bullets were found.

We fired only one with the .380 (1,830 feet per second) the jug was split all the way around as though it were cut in to, but not fragmented. The beautifully mushroomed bullet was found in the tree behind the jug. It was too large to go into a .40 case but small enough to go into a .45 case.

There is a pleasant and noticable difference in the magazine weight of his .45 XDM between the RBCD and whatever the other load he packs. Man it is heavy. I think the mags hold sixteen rounds each.

A guy at he range tried the RBCD in his little .380 Sig. It looks like a baby 1911. He fired a five shot off hand group of 3 3/4" at 7 1/2 yards. A Taurus .380 fired a six shot group from the reast of 4" at 7 1/2 yards. A Ruger LCP fired four shots from a rest into 3 1/2" at 7 1/2 yards.

A Taurus fired six Mag-Safe into a 4 7/8" group.

The guy with the Taurus fired a six shot group of 2 3/16" with Remington 88 grainers from a rest. The guy with the Ruger had a lazer on his and fired a 1 3/16" group with the same bullets off hand! Both were fired from 7 1/2 yards.

My .40 EA Witness is a one holer with the RBCD at seven and a half yards.

There was not enough recoil with the Mag-Safe from the .454 for it to hit near the point of aim. They all hit way too low. I figure at the velocity of 2,500 feet per second the design feature of over penetration was negated. I'm not going to find out.

Ringman... at this same seminar we shot a bare gelatin block with a 9mm Glaser Safety Slug. The "slug" fragmented explosively on contact with the gelatin and the particles penetrated only 2-3" into the gel. Against clothed gelatin penetation was less than an inch. In a human, these results would mean superficial injury at most.

I've tested Glaser and Mag-Safe ammo in gelatin in the past and found that Mag-Safe (the old stuff that Joe Z used to hand-assemble himself!) penetrated much better than Glaser. Neither one would pass FBI test minimums.

As for shooting water jugs: I know some internet sites have correlate them, saying that one water jug is equal to so many inches of gelatin, etc. It's really rather pointless to do so. The plastic material of the milk jugs doesn't equate to any component of a gelatin test and DOES affect bullet expansion or lack thereof.

Ballistic gelatin was developed as a tissue simulant by Dr. Martin Fackler 30+ years ago because shooting into the thigh muscle of anesthetized pigs, his previous ballistic medium, was expensive and ethically problematic.
Ballistic gelatin is not the best or even the only tissue simulant possible. It is no more and no less than the STANDARD ballistic testing medium accepted by all terminal ballisticians. Certain comparisons can be made between flesh (muscle tissue only, really) and gelatin, but that's it.

seriously 1" into ballistic gellatin, I don't believe it, a friggen sling shot or even a 22 short autta do that. DOC I am starting to wonder if you have an agenda against the 380. some of us have shot ANIMALS not humans and found the 2-3" of penetration you claim to be way off. next time I shoot a deer I am going to shoot a 380 round into it while its dead on the ground, according to you the bullet might bounce off and hit me in the face. does anyone seriously think a shot in the boiler room of a deer is only going 3" into the animal with a potent load like the 100 grain hard cast??

Do you even know what a Glaser Safety Slug is?

was fishing today and one so big I thought it was a hog at first waddled down and slid into the bayou we were chunking baits into. by the time I could dig my Kimber out of my boat bag, he had swum clean our of sight around the bend.

Well, Doc, you really know how to beat up on an old man. I guess the water jug testing will be relegated to idle fun shooting. I do apreciate the info.

By the way I never tried the Glaser. I didn't like the owner. He was too politically correct for me. Joe, on the otherhand, was my kind of guy.

I remember Bob Hagel told me, about thirty years ago, a 50% mix of fine river silt and 50% fine saw dust was as close as he could get in duplicating the results he got from a bullet fired into game. I never tried his concoction but did use dry oak shavings for some fun testing of rifle and .454 loads. The .454 with Freedom Arms 260 @ 1,925 feet per second out penetrated even the Nosler 7mm 175 Partition @ 3,150 fps. I think it is too much of a good thing for home defence.

Hmmm,the first killing I worked many years ago as a first time sheriff's deputy was a father-in-law shooting his (daughter beating) son-in-law. Three rounds to the chest from a colt mustang .380 translated to a DRT son-in-law. I guess the son-in-law shoulda been made of gelatin and he woulda been fine. The son-in-law dropped right where he was shot. Seemed pretty effective to me. Years later, a local newspaper guy while tossing news papers early in the AM, ran over a corpse of a woman laying in the road. Turns out she had taken one round of .380 to the chest after telling her baby daddy that she was pregnant. She managed to crawl out to the road in an attempt to look for help and expired. Bottom line guys, shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

I've had the unfortunate experience to have seen people killed with all kinds of things. I've seen more people killed with blunt instruments and knives than guns. Sure, there are more effective rounds in a handgun but the .380 in about convenience in my book. I can throw my Ruger in my pocket and go....I like it. I also carry a Hinderer XM-18 and a Spyderco Endura. If the #### ever hits the fan, I WILL have all three on me because they are comfortable to carry and don't sit in the drawer collecting dust. That being said, if I'm going somewhere where I suspect a greater than average chance of issues, I throw my H&K P2000 or Glock 23 in a pack or inside the waist holster. Where I live however, shorts and t-shirts are the clothes of choice in the summer and the Ruger fits.

I haven't shot any water jugs or gelatin but did shoot two deer with a .380 using fmj ammo. Neither got away, although I put a finisher in the back of the head of each when I walked up to them.

Johan's a good guy,Ive been shooting IDPA with him for a few years,Im not in his leauge as hes a 5 gun master class shooter.
Not happy to hear about the 380 preformance as thats what my wife carries these days,may have to give her my pm9.

Hmmmmm ......gelatine and jugs, or flesh and blood? It never fails, you always gotta have at least one wiseguy trying to interject some dadgum reality into the argument.

What do the autopsy's say? There have been lots of people killed with .380's over the years. Seems like it must have a track record. Muggings are rare from blocks of gelatin.

Most medium caliber low velocity wounds are indistinguishable at autopsy. When I was a Detective, we used to call that a "clue".

Thanks. I've always been a bit of a wise guy. The brass at my department never appreciated it.

Ya know, that's kinda weird .... I was the brass there at the end of my career and they still didn't like hearing the truth. :^) I guess ya just never outgrow some things. You're probably like me though - you wear your wiseguy status like a badge of honor.

dude seriously, 1-2" is all your giving the 380 credit for?? how come this guy on video proves you TOTALLY wrong, he tests many different 380 rounds and just from the few I saw there was a couple that went through 4 layers of denim and over 10"

http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9/videos?query=380

check out tnoutdoors other 380 ammo tests. I believe a video alot more than you claiming the 380 is going to bounce off the flesh. it also shows FMJ bullets going all the way through a 20" block. is the 380 a 9mm NO, the point is the likely hood of needing your CCW should be a consideration on how larger of a gun you use. I lived in waco texas a long time. If I am going to east waco, give me a full size glock. if I am carrying where I live now I feel good about my LCP. where the likelyhood is low carry a lighter gun. if your going to gangsta hood carry a bigger gun.

jasontx, cumminscowboy, and others...

Gentlemen, I appreciate your responses. Just a minor point, but if you're going to quote me, would you mind being accurate in your quotations?

Please be aware that, as I stated in the OP, my objective in starting this thread was to bring to light some of the terminal ballistics realities of the 380 ACP round that have been REPEATEDLY demonstrated by numerous ballistics labs, in studies I have witnessed (and occasionally participated in), that MOST people who don't study terminal ballistics and terminal effects may not be aware of.

I have never said, and will never say, that the 380 is an absolutely inappropriate caliber for self-defense. It's clearly not in the same class as any of the accepted LE service calibers, which means it's below the minimum standard American police will or can carry on duty, but for personal use I can't comment on what YOU think is appropriate or not.

As a trauma physician, like jasontx, I have seen dead bodies that had been ventilated with nothing more powerful than a lowly 380. But FWIW, I've seen people made dead by .22, .25, and .32 caliber bullets as well, not that it has ANY statistical significance whatsoever. I recently read an amazing but true story related by a well-respected African writer and experienced elephant hunter. He described the taking of not one, but TWO adult male bull elephants with a .22 rifle. That's right, .22LR, rimfire. And "Karamojo" Bell did most of his elephant ivory gathering with a 7x57 rifle. I think you'll have a hard time finding a PH in Africa willing to hunt jumbo with either caliber today, despite their "proven" effectiveness under some circumstances. I could go on in this vein, but I hope you see my point.

I am not saying that anyone should or should not use a 380 ACP pistol for self-defense. I have only offered information demonstrating the relatively weak performance of this round when compared to standard service pistol calibers.

I am not prepared to enter into a discussion of whether you've shot a deer with a 380, or a hog, or a human being. Will it kill them? Absolutely, under the right circumstances.

But is it a good choice for a combat pistol round when the fight is on? The FBI's standard testing protocol for service caliber ammunition says, resoundingly, "NO", with the exception of one or two brands/types of ammunition. It's not me, that says this, and it's not Johan Boden, but the FBI ballistics lab. This isn't up for argument, gentlemen. It's not my standard, it's the FBI's standard, and the standard accepted by most LE agencies for their firearms and ammunition choices throughout the U.S., as well as internationally.

Can you say the 380 ACP is an acceptable choice for your combat pistol round when your life hangs in the balance? That's a question only YOU can answer. That's a question that each 380 fan has to decide for himself or herself, and all I've done here is offer some objective observations to help people make that choice in an informed manner.

doc, ok did you have a chance to watch the tests done by the guy in the video I linked to. he does many other rounds as well. I found it interesting in that it maintained the same standard for all rounds tested, 4 layers of denim and the test media calibrated the same. so its a level playing field I think.

DocRocket,

This thread remnds me of the optics forum. They can't go very many pages before someone gets their feathers ruffled.

I thank you for taking time to post what for me is fun and usefull info. Stay safe.