Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles First day of load development

Joel,

Mule Deer's load's are typically known for working in many cases. Not 100% of the time.

IMO, experience and from reading, at this point of finding the load for you '06 would not be by adjusting OAL; yet. Adjusting OAL and testing various primers are more....."fine" tuning. Trying different powder charges or different powders all together would be considered "major" tuning. Also, trying different bullets would be considered "major" tuning.

With that said, if you are set on using the 180 PT and Hunter, which are fine components, yes, adjusting OAL about 40 thou would be in order. You're at 2.735" now. Load up little 5-shot snacks of (assuming your 2.735" is on or near the lands) shorter OAL cartridges; 2.695", 2.655", 2.615". See which shoot best and then, if you want, fine tune ever more by working within the .04" range in smaller increments. Say, .01" increments. Once completed, try different primers. I didn't see velocities nor see one in the photo, thus I have to assume you're not using a chronograph. Not needed but always nice to have when looking for loads that vary little from shot to shot. Having shot to shot similarities in velocity helps keep your vertical impacts closer at longer distances. And seeings you have a CDS elev turret (14 minutes of adjustment) on that nice Leupold and your load, running around 2750 fps will take you out to well past 600 yds.

Did your 'smith tune the trigger pull nice and light? Helps with fine accuracy!

Some of my best loads come from using the Lee CND. Some come from using Redding Type-S Bushing die; the full length version for hunting and/or tactical rifles.

Hope this helps.

By the way, NICE looking rifle. What are the components?

Alan

looks like you need to work on your technique.

You've got potential there as you've 3 shots together and then 2 somewhere else.

It is called 2 grouping.

There's much to be said about.

Breathing, cheek weld, trigger control and follow through.

I'll let the others argue about what 2 grouping is.

I just got my rifle back from the 'smith. Today was the first trip to the range doing some load development.

She's a Remington 700, 30-06. Some aftermarket work done, so all that's left of the Remington is the action.



I want to get 180-grain Nosler Partitions to shoot about an inch, or better. All our rifles shoot one-hole groups on the internet, of course. Oh, 5-shot groups.

I started around Mule Deer's 58.0 grains Ramshot Hunter. I loaded up 57.5, 58.0, 58.5, 59.0 grains, all 2.735 inches to ogive from base. Lapua brass weight sorted but not sorted for neck thickness, CCI Magnum primers. I used the Lee Collet Neck Die this go-round, but also have a Redding S-Type Bushing Neck die.

Here's the 58.0 grain group:



If I throw out a "flyer" I get just over an inch, but with the flyer it's 1.7 inches. I didn't call the flyer. I do remember seating a bullet in this group that took 2 seatings until it was the same length as the others, so that could have been the flyer.

Here's the 59.0 grain group:



Around 1.26 inches.

I was thinking of adjusting OAL next, working in by 0.04 inches per 5-shots. Thoughts on using the 58.0 group or the 59.0 group? At this point I'm leaning to the 59.0 grain group, as there was no flyer.

Oh, I haven't forgotten about Mule Deer's tip of trying a faster powder with Partitions, but I can play with OAL for free.

I really like your blueprint, are you set on using a Partition...if so I would try some Fed 210's and some different powders!

What a dick!

Just kidding. Thanks for the input. I believe you are correct, and I have much to learn about shooting, and will never know it all.

I will say it was quite nice to have my rifle back, even if she feels different. I would bet the more time I spend with her the better the groups get. And I may never have a rifle that shoots 1/2 inch groups, because I may never be able to shoot 1/2 inch groups.

Not trying to be a dick at all.. just trying to help. I looks like you have a load that will work but the consistency from you is a bit lacking.

Once you learn the techniques and practice it. It becomes muscle memory.

From what I'm reading and understanding you basically have nothing but an untuned rifle with an aftermarket trigger, and new barrel not yet broken in and a heart full of hope...what EVERY one has with an new toy...no diss or flame intended and I'm NOT whizzing on your shooter, just plain truth in the real world.

From my perspective you are wasting components trying to get something that is probably not possible as your rifle sets now. But keep doing what you are doing and you WILL learn.

BEFORE you go any farther...TUNE THE RIFLE and ammo and accept the time constraints...I.E. bed it...benchrest prep your brass AND bullets...you're worried about a few thou difference in COAL and you haven't even ogive or weight sorted the bullets...Partitions can have 0.010" difference in ogive length(or more even) and several grains of weight variation. Partitions are excellent HUNTING bullets where HUNTING accuracy is expected NOT half MOA...

Sometimes, JUST SOMETIMES I get a box of Partitions that are very uniform in Ogive and weight over 85% of the box but NEVER 100% and that goes for EVERY BRAND of bullets INCLUDING factory target...custom target bullets are another story.

If you want a 1/2 MOA rifle you have to PAY for it in gunsmithing costs AND sweat equity scattered all about developing UNIFORM brass and bullets...otherwise be happy with "normal" hunting accuracy.

Shooting small groups ISN'T hard, it just takes practice working on all the basic techniques...forget about what the groups are and consentrate on learning HOW to shoot...the groups will come when you practice and when you learn.

You're basically chasing your tail by not reducing the variables as low as possible, THEN, starting your load development.

The cases can have several grains of weigh differential which basically means the internal volume is different, so futzing with powder weight is a waste of time.

You also need to measure the COAL bullet to lands length AFTER you sort the OGIVE length.

Basically you need to start over from the beginning, do all the grunt work, get things uniformed, THEN you will be in a relatively good position to start your load workup and come up with a consistent accurate load.

Check out some of the varminting and target forums to see HOW to develop accurate, benchrest prepped ammo, if you haven't already.

I guarantee if you bench prep your cases and bullets you will cut your groups in half without hardly trying...and believe me when I say you CAN'T produce consistent small groups by just grabbing brass and bullets indescriminantly...you WILL get small groups now and then, but the next time they will turn into "patterns"

One other thing you might do if you don't want to bear down and do the "hard" work...number your cases, fire them in order, set the cases that go out of the group in one place and the cases that go INTO the group in another. Load and fire both the groups again to see what happens, DON'T CHANGE THE LOAD OR THE COAL...SOMETIMES this will separate the brass into "GOOD" AND "BAD"...sometimes not, but it is one way to reduce variation. GOOD brass will continue to shoot to the same POI and the BAD stuff will keep scattering...sometimes this method is quicker than weight sorting or even MORE time consuming, water weight sorting. BAD in this case just means it shoots to a different POI, not that it's lousy brass.

One last bit of "experience"...buy yourself a digital JEWLERY scale...you can find many in the $20-40 range...a good digital caliper..same price range...and a set of Hornady headspace AND bullet seating gauges...THEN...

when you get ready to reload your next bunch...grab 5 cases at random, size and trim, weight sort and number from lightest to heaviest AND measure the shoulder length with the headspace gauge...do the same with the bullets, grab 5 bullets at random...measure the ogive length with the bullet seating gauge and sort them into lengths and number AND weigh sort them also. MARK DOWN THE MEASUREMENTS AS YOU GO...

Find the COAL bullet to lands measurement...that has bee discussed all over this forum...USING A bullet you have ogive measured as a reference. USE THIS MEASUREMENT as the "standard" seated ~0.010" off the lands with any load out of a reloading manual...one with pressure readings preferrably, picking the highest velo with the slowest powder but dropping it ~5%.

Load them up but keep in order lightest case to heaviest case with lightest bullet to heavierst bullet. Shoot them and mark the data on the target. Go reload another set, same thing grabbing components randomly, but sorting within the groups...do this for 5 sets, mark the targets from 1-5, then compare the targets.

THEN...size and trim, reweight the 25 cases and sort from lightest to heaviest and sort the cases into 5 groups with the 5 lightest cases in one group, the next heaviest cases into 5 groups...etc...get the picture?... and weigh/ogive sort 25 Partitions...reload light with light and on up the weight scale...you should be getting the total picture by now.

Fire the 5 groups on 5 different targets, mark them 1-5, lightest to heaviest and THEN compare them. You should see a big difference between the sorted and the unsorted targets...if you DON'T then you need to take a look at YOUR shooting technique and go back to basics.

I've been using this technique or a variation of it for a very long time on new, used, custom, rebarrels, rifle I've built, etc and can usually cut the group size down by 50% compared to factory ammo or randomly reloaded ammo, BEFORE mucking about with seating or powder amounts...not always...but I used to keep my component stores chocked full of goodies by doing this and maybe a bit of simple barrel channel work or bedding for people...I did the work for components NOT money.

The sad fact is doing this takes time...ACCURACY takes time...and in todays world NO ONE really wants to do the time, but they continually do the crime...wasting BOTH TIME and COMPONENTS whizzing in the wind by not sysematically developing both the rifle and the ammo.

Don't know where the He** that sh** came out of my post, Jo. It is the same advice I have given MANY times to ANYONE online and off who wants to develope an accurate rifle. You're putting words and thoughts in that weren't intended. I didn't say anything about not posting...the one good thing AND bad thing about the net is it's INFORMATION RICH and questions are the only way to gain answers on OR off the net.

You want to do a search for my posts, I have stated basically the same thing over and over...I do sometime get a bit testy now and then, but on the whole my intent is on SOLVING a problem not dissing anyone...that sh** is just that...judging from some of the latest movies I can see WHY...and the reason I live in the boonies and only go to town twice a month.

Good accuracy is NEITHER costly OR time consuming, but good tools are required to allow solving the simple problems that plague the most where accuracy is concerned. I didn't learn what I know off the net...I've been at this game half a century and shot everything from benchrest to long range to steel to pistol etc, but advice is advice...just like anal apetures, everyone has one and both advice and what comes out of that apeture can smell and be the same thing.

The tools I indicated allow you to measure just about all the parameters you need to know to approach accuracy from a systematic point of view and reduce the cost of components which is where the real costs are.

Dial calipers, the Hornady gauges, a neck turner, good CHEAP jewelry digital scale and a chrono are basic to developing good loads and 200 bucks should cover all the costs and leave you change for a McDonalds.

A headspace gauge allows you to setup your sizer to minimum case "squish" so your cases have a long lifetime..the bullet gauge allows you to set your COAL for uniformity because bullet LENGTH is highly variable and the chrono lets you keep the pressure within limits by knowing the velocity.

I weight/ogive every box of bullets I buy and I do it during commercials or while watching a movie...WHICH IS MORE TIME CONSUMING...the same thing with cases...and I have a drill motor with case holders for the various case head sizes and I can turn 100 necks in a couple of hours...about 45 to 60 seconds per case. Once that is done you don't have to do it again and once the bullets are sorted and the odd ones tossed into the fouler box then you don't have to do that again...just reload and shoot.

ALL THIS INFORMATION and much more is readily found on the net with a little bit of searching...

It's YOUR CHOICE, YOUR SHOOTER AND YOUR POCKETBOOK...I HATE wasting money on components when developing loads so I buy good, cheap tools...chumpchanging a few bucks on tools is false ecomony and just means you spend several times that money on bullet holes that don't tell you squat.

EOF

Something I have started doing with a new to me rifle is to use a bullet and powder that gives me every opportunity to test the rifles ablility to shoot well.

30 cal Partitions gave me fits until recently.

I had problems with 2 grouping as has been mentioned, but I shoot 3 shot groups in hunting rifles for economy and I really only expect my hunting rifles to hold a good group for 3 shots.

I will take a bullet usually a Sierra and work with powders that have given good predictable results for myself and others.

Hunter seems to be one of those in the 30-06 along with IMR4350 and H4350.

I have even gone so far as to use a Match bullet, match prepped brass and match primers to test the rifles accuracy potential.

It seems that for me a new rifle needs to get 50 rnds down the barrel to settle down as long as the bedding, trigger and scope are OK.

Maybe check your scope for parallax. I have a 2.5-8 VX3 that has noticable parallax, but I have learned to work with it and I can shoot good groups with it having been on several of my rifles.

Lots of good advice you have gotten from others.

Really depends on what level of accuracy you want to attain as to how detailed you need to get.

Lee

Ok, I have some questions. Responses embedded.

What did the smith do to it as far as accuracy tweeking? Bartlein installed the barrel and lug. The smith mentioned above bedded the action into the stock.

Is it properly bedded? Pillar (McMillan pillars) and glass bedded. When I get a chance I'll work on pictures. Fit is very tight.

Were the lugs lapped and trued? I asked Bartlein to true the action, but they didn't charge me for it--which makes me believe it was not done. I'm not sending it back, as it took them 5 months to install the barrel (after they said the barrel was ready). I would send it to someone else before I sent it back, even if it meant yet another barrel. Not to say I think they make poor barrels. Bartlein mentioned for a hunting rifle they didn't think it was worth it to true the action.

Also, why are you using "CCI magnum" primers? I run regular old cci large rifle primers with great results in all of my 06's with all of the loads I run. As per the recommendation of Mule Deer, who mentions Ramshot powders often perform better with magnum primers. I also have CCI LR and CCI BR2s.

Your numbers don't tell us how far off the lands you are running those bullets (you need to know this) and if you are looking for suggestions it's helpful for us to know too... 0.005 off lands for initial run, measured first with Hornady OAL gauge. That's from memory, but I believe those numbers to be correct. Measured from base of case to bullet ogive.

Did you loctite those bases down? No, installed with torque driver set to 20 in/lbs. I thought I was going to have to change bases to windage adjustable, but now it doesn't look that way. I will reinstall with Loctite likely this week, before shooting again Saturday.

I'm assuming the scope is also "proven".... The scope went back to Leupold before install for correction--it was not tracking well previously. They also installed the CDS dial then, as it's a VXIII, not a VX3. However, the scope tracked well yesterday, as it took 5 shots for sight-in and didn't move afterwards. The above mentioned smith installed the scope with Leupold Windage adjustable bases, and when I first took the rifle out of the stock to visually inspect bedding one of the windage screws broke. I believe it was likely torqued too much. Anyway, I installed my previous Talley lightweights, so the scope was not boresighted. The first 4 shots were at 25 yards. First shot, turned 12 clicks right. Next shot, 10 clicks right. Third shot, 3 clicks right. Fourth shot dead on at 25 yards. Moved to 100 yards, and the fifth shot was 1/8 inch left, at 1.5 inches high. That was with some factory Win loads. Then I moved to the handloads.

I believe the rifle is likely not trued, and I don't know if the lugs were lapped, though I believe Bartlein laps the barrel. I suppose I could have someone install another barrel and true the action, but that's a lot of money ($850) for probably not much more benefit. Can a smith true an action and re-install the same barrel?

If I can never figure the rifle out, I would send it to Mike Bryant or other well-known smith for more work. But I probably wouldn't do that for at least two more years. I've already been without her for 6 months. That alone likely adds to the group size.

Keep in mind, I've never been through sniper training. There is an unquantifiable size to how small a group size I can shoot. I once qualified expert with an M16A2 enroute to Iraq for the USAF, but that's not saying much. I have very little time behind a military trigger, maybe 300 rounds in 12 years, divided between the 16 and 9mm Beretta.