Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mr. Barnsness; about sizing virgin brass

Some months ago, you posted a message on a thread here when someone was complaining about short case life. In your message you asked if the OP resized his virgin brass before first use and when he responded in the affirmative, you explained that was the reason he was getting short life from his brass.

As a competitor, when I buy virgin brass it�s in lots of 500 or 1000 cases. We are talking about bottleneck rifle brass here. I buy either Lapua or Winchester brass and I process the virgin brass differently depending on the brand. For my .308 match ammo, I use Lapua exclusively and the only thing I do to a virgin case is run a mandrel through the mouth to round it out. The mouth is already chamfered and deburred and the flash hole is drilled. For the Winchester brass, I run the mandrel through the mouth, then using my RCBS Trim Mate, I chamfer and deburr the mouth, uniform the primer pocket and pop the chad in the flash hole.

I have never resized virgin brass as it always seemed like the wrong thing to do. Why buy virgin brass and then mess it up? Plus, I am inherently lazy and I just could not see what benefit I would get from going through the whole sizing exercise in the first place. My sizing dies for my match rifles are adjusted so as to push the shoulder back by about .001 or maybe .002. When I close the bolt, there is just the slightest hint of resistance at the end; that�s the way I like it.

My current batch of .308 Match ammo has just had its eight primer seated in it. (I count the number of times a primer is seated in the case, as that is when I have finished processing the brass and I let it sit for a few weeks before loading the powder and seating the bullet. I work in boxes of 100 cases, 5 boxes to a batch. That way I have finished ammo or cases in various stages of processing at all times. I keep count for each box.) I clean the brass to a high shine every time so that I can see any defects. I trim, chamfer and deburr the brass every fifth loading, and now that I have a machine, I have taken to annealing every time because it is so quick and easy with the Giraud. The primer pockets are still tight(ish) and I �m hoping to get another couple of loads from the brass before retiring it.

So, where am I going with this?

Last fall, I shot in the F-Class National Championship in Lodi and got to meet a lot of great shooters. I had a great time. I showed up at each relay, shot all my shots, never missed the target, (no crossfires.) and my rifle and ammo worked great, I went through 300+ rounds of my match ammo that week. One day after finishing that morning�s 1000 yard match, I was in the pits manning a target with a fellow competitor. We were scoring for a competitor on the other relay and commenting on each shot. The shooter was doing well when all of a sudden his shot went into the 6-ring at 6 o�clock. Straight down. This was followed by a pause that stretched into several minutes. After about 5 minutes or so, the next shot came down, proper elevation but now he had lost the wind. I commented to my colleague that the shooter had had an issue with his bipod or he had broken a cartridge case in the rifle.

When we got back to the line, coming off the bus I asked the shooter what had happened. He said that he had a broken case and had difficulty getting it out. He also said that this was the third one this week. I asked him if he resized his virgin brass. He said yes, he always did that. By that time the bus was leaving to go back to the pits and the conversation ended.

On another board a month or so ago, the OP was complaining that his brass life was not as long as he expected. I joined in the fray and discovered that he too resized his virgin brass. I posted that this practice was his problem and I was immediately jumped on by various other long-time members on that board who engaged in that practice also. Remembering the explanation that you had given originally, I stood my ground and explained why sizing virgin brass takes it below minimum dimension and how that creates a headspace problem that was not there before and that doing this was shortening the life of the brass immediately.

I think some folks understood but the more vocal ones, the ones with post counts in the multiple thousands (which means they are always right,) dismissed my explanations and some resorted to thinly-veiled ad hominem attacks. One even explained that Midway USA puts a sticker in the virgin brass boxes that says to resize virgin brass before use. I told them that MidwayUSA was wrong to do that and then I let matters rest. (I did check MidwayUSA�s site and they do enjoin customers to resize virgin brass before using. I don�t buy brass from MidwayUSA, never did, never will.)

Last night on that same board, a member was explaining that he had a stuck case in his sizing die. The problem was the case had separated when he was pulling it out of the die, just like a typical case head separation. He had nothing to grab onto to pull it out. He also said this was fairly new brass with just a couple of loading. He further stated that he checked several other cases and many exhibited the signs of incipient case head separation.

I sent a private message to the OP asking him if he resized his virgin brass. He replied back that he in fact did. I told him not to do that and that I would explain why on the open forum, which I did.

Mr. Barnsness, I have always enjoyed your prose, either here or in various magazines. You expound on many subjects, sometimes in very clever, innovative ways and that is what I enjoy the most. However, that being said, that one explanation as to WHY resizing virgin brass is not just useless but actually BAD stands foremost as something I learned from you. I always knew in my gut that it was a waste of time and effort and now I am convinced that it is bad practice and I have actual anecdotes (true stories) to back that up.

Now, let�s see if we can convince MidwayUSA to change its ways.

Denys

Denys,

Thanks very much for your post. I do buy brass from Midway on occasion and had never noticed their suggestion!

Actually, resizing new brass doesn't harm anything as long as the shoulder isn't set back--but a lot of handloaders simply screw their FL die into the press until it's firmly against the shell-holder--often due to the instructions that come with the die. This will indeed result in cases that chamber easily, but often the long-term results aren't so hot! Often, too, the case neck comes out of the die crooked.

I must admit that I'm often baffled by some of the stuff done by my fellow handloaders, and even more baffled by the responses of some people when challenged about it, even when presented with proof that they're wrong--such as separated cases. But apparently that's just the way many humans are wired!

virgin brass is somewhat harder to do. you have to buy dinner and then later, really ease into the sizing since it's their first time. go gently.

That's why I soak mine in vodka...

To the OP, I'm in the load and shoot group as well.



Travis

John, this is from MidwayUSA's web site:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1390176376/winchester-brass-308-winchester

Emphasis mine.

"Note:

�A light "staining" may be found on the case neck of new brass. This is due to annealing. Annealing is a process, performed by the manufacturer, which involves rapid heating to a specified temperature followed by rapid cooling. This process imparts cases with the proper hardness to securely hold a bullet as well as gives flexibility to expand and contract upon firing and repeated forming. The "staining" is a residue from this process. This stain may be removed by tumbling before loading. Brass should be full-length sized, trimmed and chamfered before loading."

As I said, I have never bought brass from MidwayUSA, but I have had folks tell me there is a note added that says to resize first. So, I defer to someone who has actually bought virgin brass from them.

mjbgalt and deflave, you really should get your minds to climb up to the gutter.

what the hell would i wanna do that for lol

I have always run new brass through the die but I have never set the die so as to touch the shoulder. Unless I am, for some reason, loading very hot, I seldom lose a case. I expect twenty loadings and usually get it. The exception has been with 223 brass where it is sometimes loaded hot enough to loosen primer pockets after three or four firings. I prefer not to do this but if I have to in order to eliminate some vertical, for instance, I'll sacrifice some brass. GD

FTR,

Thanks for the very good report. I agree with you and JB completely on this subject. I was taught initially, decades ago, to just barely bump the shoulder (partial full-length re-size).

I am not a bench-rest competitor. Most of my guns are older hunting rifles, many with rather generous chambers. I get very good case life, except for rare occasions with a poor lot of cases, usually from an old box of factory loads.

Out of curiosity, I have loaded some lots twenty times. I have never, in 45 years, had a case-head separation in a gun or a die. I do inspect very carefully as load count gets high and toss out any suspect cases. I have settled on a routine of retiring case lots after 12 to 14 firings, as that is about the time I have to start discarding individual cases.

I use the Redding Competition shell holders to do my partial resizing as I feel it aids precision and consistency.

I also anneal every fourth loading, and my loads are almost always at least a little less than max, at the best accuracy node I can find. Otherwise I frequently stop one grain or so below max, so as not to have to worry as much about shooting in higher than normal temperatures in the summer.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.

As Gauss supposedly said, here it lies. The problem with sizing, virgin brass or not, is incorrect die set up.

Another reason some people resist the idea that sizing new brass might be a problem is the fairly common belief that case separations are the result of high pressure (and NOT the kind applied to the other kind of virgin by some bachelors). This can be true in rear-locking actions, such as many lever-actions, but isn't in front-locking bolt actions.

One of the reasons I never really got into sizing new brass (aside from the fact that I assumed that ammo companies knew how to do it, which is usually correct) is that I handload a LOT, and pretty much always have for around 40 years. I really hate wasting time on stuff that doesn't matter, and I've found a lot of the jobs many handloaders perform religiously to be a total waste of time!

Mind outlining your prep on new brass? This is the first time I've ever heard you shouldn't size it...

Most of the pushback I got from people who steadfastly refused to consider that resizing virgin brass was a waste of time at best (if you do not push back the shoulder,) or actually bad for the brass at worst (if you actually push the shoulder back,) is that they KNOW virgin brass is deformed and they want to control everything.

My thought is like yours, ammunition makers do not have two lines of brass production; one crappy one for the doofuss handloader and a good one for their loaded ammunition. While I can understand having higher selection criteria for brass intended for premium match ammo, I doubt they resize their virgin brass before assembling this premium match ammo.

Let's talk about another waste of time, barrel break-in or cleaning .22LR bores. Take your pick.

(Edited to add: Never mind about the break-in and the cleaning, there is still work to do about resizing virgin brass.)

I normally run the case necks over an expander ball to even out bullet-pull as much as possible, even if the necks are really round. Plus, in a lot of bagged brass, of course, the necks are dinged and dented.

Brass is final-formed a the factory by what's essentially a full-length die without an expander ball, the big reason it doesn't need to be sized again in your die. (We can pretty much assume that Federal, Lapua, Norma, Winchester, etc. have forming dies equal to those made by RCBS, Redding, etc.) But if the neck itself is a little uneven in thickness (and in most brass it is), this means the inside of the neck will vary slightly in diameter and roundness.

Running it over an expander ball makes the inside of the neck more consistent in diameter, and that's what holds the bullet. Pressure labs normally only use new brass, and that's what they do with the necks, because uneven bullet-pull between rounds will affect pressures.

Afterward I may chamfer the case mouth, and may not, depending on whether I'm loading boattailed bullets. I also measure the length of a few cases to see if any are too long. Most new cases aren't, in fact they're usually slightly short, but I have run into a few batches of brass over the years that had quite a few cases longer than SAAMI specs. If so, I trim them all, usually .01" shorter than SAAMI.

That's about it. The only time I uniform primer pockets and flash-holes anymore is when loading for my benchrest rifle, because I've run tests and found it didn't make any difference at all even in really accurate varmint rifles.

I like to make sure the necks are trued up, and the mouths chamfered for a smooth bullet seat. That's usually it. But I do have one rifle, Remington factory chamber no less, that will tell you if a piece of new brass is the least bit above minimum head-to-shoulder dimension.

I round out necks on new brass and do all the anal treatments (primer,flash hole, length/camfur, turn & ream necks, weigh etc) after the first firing. Neck sizing dies only.

Mathman, I agree with that. That is why I run a Sinclair mandrel through each and every virgin case. The Lapua brass is already chamfered and deburred so no forther processing is needed, or desired.

Since I use nothing but boat tail bullets, I use a VLD chamfer for the non-Lapua brass or after I have trimmed any brass.

The only reason I uniform the primer pocket and pop the chad on the flash hole for non-Lapua brass is that the attachments are on the Trim Mate and it takes but a few seconds to do.

And then it is OK to FL size for subsequent reloads? Or do you avoid FL sizing all together when possible?

Prepare yourself for an avalanche of replies with differing views on the subject.

For my match rifles, I resize after every firing using small base F/L bushing dies without the expander ball.

I full length resize because I want my cases to have the same dimensions for every load. Those who only neck size usually have to use a body dies after 2 or more loads, which means the case does not have the same dimensions for each load, and certainly not after the body die treatment.

I use a small base F/L die because my match rifles have very tight chambers and I do not want my cases to grow. Since the chamber is tight and the SB die is used every time, there is little to no work needed to size the die with this SB die and I do not believe the brass is over worked. I would not use an SB die for regular chambers.

I use a bushing die to have complete control over the neck tension. I have bushings for each brand of brass I use (Lapua and Winchester in .308) and use the appropriate on depending on the brand.

I have removed the expander balls because they will screw up my carefully set neck tension, negating the use of the bushing in the first place. I do not walk on my cases and when using my bolt guns, I catch the brass when I open the bolt and place the fired case in the box directly. I also believe the expander ball is the device that makes brass grow longer faster.

For non match rifles, a good quality F/L die works fine. I do not load non-match brass anywhere near as many times as match brass.

bellydeep,

After the first firing I use a variety of methods of sizing, depending on the rifle. With big game rifles I full-length size, with varmint rifles I full-length, neck-size or partial-size, depending on the rifle and the case.

For instance, with the .22 Hornet I partial size with a Hornady FL die, because this allows me to bypass lubing, and results in very straight cases. I full-length size .223 cases, because we have three .223's and they all have slightly different chambers. I've only got one .204 Ruger, so neck-size with a Redding bushing die. So it just depends.