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Strange BOG we've veered off into here,...."Re-creating"
Anybody actually SHOOTING BPCR or REAL BPCR Arty ?

2 POUNDS of ANY grade of BP, behind a 2 POUND hard cast round ball,Steel Gun,....



WTF would ANYBODY (legitimate) want to go to a REAL BPCR shoot ?











I REALLY do need to get myself one of these

[img]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/robbinmyers/08-0718-RBSIGHTIN.jpg[/img]

Do not INVEST,....buy cheap Dago replicas.
......dime a dozen, and most ALL of em' BETTER than this
Sarcasm OFF,....I expect Whiskey, ...and smiles, for making THIS point.

Swampchitspants will not be lifting a flagon with us.

Appears to LOATHE "BPCR" while madly posting about same.

Toxic,...that.

GTC

I like BPCR fine, I just don't like cleaning rifles. Mine shoots as well as that with IMR-4198.

Hey Cross, did you shoot in last years Arizona State silhouette Championship?

Anybody actually SHOOTING BPCR or REAL BPCR Arty ?
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dont have a match locally, have a couple not that much of a drive away but they dont advertise outside their world much and i usually find out about them the day of and cant skip town to go watch....

no rifle yet but wished i had the money for the one shrapnel put in the classifieds......a rifle from Shiloh is high on my list of wants.....

Rattler, on Labor day Shiloh puts on their invitational match in Reed Point, lots to see and drool over, this year it is a 2 day match. It would be worth the drive if you have the bug!

after my post i went looking through schedules......ill be driving through Forsyth on the Sunday of the Quigley shoot.....will prolly stop off and check that out.....even went so far as to write it down on the wifes calendar so i dont forget

Do they allow greenhorn idiots like me to attend one of these shoots?

Specially iffin I stand over out of the way with my hands in my pockets, ears open, mouth closed

Gunner

Rattler the Big Hill shoot will be June 9th 10 miles north of Baker , then again on Sept. 15
Dan Cash has his shoot at Sentinel Butte on July 16
Merv and Kathi Coates usually have their Peabody Pass Shoot at Rahm on the weekend after fathers day.
The Amidon BP club generally has their shoot the first weekend in August.
And the cremdelacrem of shoots in your part of the world , the Medicine Rocks on Sept.8
The Forsyth and Billings clubs shoot 2 or 3 times a month.

Sure they do, how do you think we get new shooters, most any one will let you try a few shots, it's usually enough to get someone wanting a bpcr. I know it was for me.

Thanks, i didnt know if someone had to qualify first to shoot in a match.

I have a Sharps rifle, but its not one of the desirable cartridges for shooting.

Gunner

Gunner most gong shoots put a 38 caliber minimum , other than that there's really no desirable or undesirable catridges for shooting.

Thanks Ranch, but my rifle is the un-ruly 45-120 Sharps, I have had good luck with it and the 540 gn PJ Creedmoor grease groove bullet at 1550 fps using FFG Swiss BP, cast 1 to 20.

But I am expecting a load of paper patch supplies in todays mail, thanks in part to Evil Twin dragging me over to the darkside

Gunner

First thing you need to do is set that powder aside and save it for the little cartridges. That cartridge will thrive on 1f and do it rather well without tearing your head off everytime you yank on the trigger.

Here's a couple of "fun" on the range pics
First is looking down the barrel at the Quigley stopsign.
Then this one Paul 39 took thru his spotting scope at Alliance, it shows the 800 yd buff, the 970 yd bear, and the 1000 yd.

Here's one of Kenny Wasserburgers Creedmoor range.

The 800 yd target is hanging by one side , due to the chain got broke during a relay. Some blame it on Jeff F for pounding it to pieces with his 110, but I think it was a combination of things.

Squad of levergunners at Medicine Rocks

The "grizz" target at Big Hill

Wonderful pics, looks like a blast for sure, ET and i are gonna head out West soon to see EH76 and look for some Buffler, it would be nice if we could all meet for a shoot or hunt, or both .

Have a powder compression die here threaded for my RCBS dies, and will look at some FG for the 45-120.


Story of that rifle is kinda weird, I walked into a local gun shop and saw a long barreled rifle standing on its butt on the end of the rack.

I ask to see it, I just wanted to make sure it was a real Sharps and had a good bore, it is, and it does, and also came with a Shiloh mid-range tang sight with a Hadley? eye cup, RCBS dies and 80 sticks of new Jamison brass.

$900 out the door, I couldnt leave it, and didnt know at the time it was a weird duck, so I have to make due with this slightly off the wall chambering.

I like it and it has always shot very good for me with the buckhorns.

Oh and recoil is OK, it weighs 12 lbs.

Gunner

You got a hell of a buy on that. You can still get the Jamison brass from Grafs and BACO. When/if you get to going on these "gong" shoots you really need to have at least 150 rounds to take along.

Aerial view of the Medicine Rocks in progress.

Son Bob and daugherinlaw Kelli on the firing line at the Quigley.

Whoops, I think i replied to soon Ranch, its up a bit in the middle of your pics, very beautiful by the way.

Have noticed one thing, I am guessing the barrels on the Sharps and Highwall rifles are not affected by resting the barrels on the shooting sticks, as opposed to resting the forearm only?

Gunner

No they aren't affected , but you do sort of have to play around with it to see where the sweet spot is. Usually that ends up being either right off the forend or about 4 inches back from the muzzle.
Resting out towards the muzzle does tend to give you a steadier rest than up close to the forearm.

10-4, i did install a lace on leather recoil pad on the shotgun butt of my rifle, not because of the recoil, but to add a bit to the LOP, i just couldn't get my head around having that big tang sight that close to my face when that mother BOOMED

I pulled it off and ordered some nice filler screws from C Sharps, and will stick to the laddered buckhorn? for hunting.

Gunner

Gunner, after seeing a BUNCH of pics of Buffalo rifles used on the Texas Panhandle hunt, their forearms are nearly worn away. Mine had been replaced long ago. Easier to refinish or replace wood than steel.

Hey crossfire . . . Thanks for starting a thread that will hopefully not be hijacked off course. I DO shoot real BP in the three rifles below, as well as in a few other CF non-BPCR rifles and handguns.

45-70 Shiloh Sharps Hartford model, 30" hvy bbl, steel shotgun buttplate, Red River Sights (formerly Parts Unknown). WW cases, 70 gr Goex Ctg grade BP under a Lyman 457125 bullet cast 30:1, homemade lube, 0.035" card wad and Fed 215 primer is the normal load.




45-90 Shiloh Sharps #3 Sporter model, 30" hvy bbl, steel shotgun buttplate, semi-fancy wood. Starline cases, 70 gr Goex 1f BP under a Lyman 457132 bullet cast 30:1, homemade lube, 0.035" card wad and Fed 215 primer is the normal load.



45-70 Rolling Block, 34" hvy bbl, steel shotgun buttplate, the sight in the picture has been replaced with Red River Sights (formerly Parts Unknown). Same load data as the Hartford.




I built (with a lot of help from a good friend) the Rolling Block from an original action that had been barreled in .43 Egyptian caliber. It was built in the spring of 1997. The Hartford was ordered before the Roller was built, but the wait for a Shiloh was about 48 months at that time and I just had to have something to shoot before then - hence the Rolling Block. I ended up waiting 4 years, 10 months and 20 days for the Hartford and it was worth every minute. For the #3 Sporter I took the short route and ordered it from Shiloh's website. It was set up almost exactly as I would have custom ordered one. The wait for it was substantially shorter than for the Hartford - I placed the order on a Friday and had the rifle in hand the following Thursday . . .

Great pics so far . . . keep them coming.

Thanks again, crossfire. Carry on guys.

10-4 on the 150, and cleaning supplies.

Gunner

I remember seeing a bit of wear on your original 45-110 at the Boar hunt, I can see this turning into another un-breakable habit , But thats alright, I got the Wifeys blessings, she allowed a man can have ALOT worse habits than guns and huntin' LOL

Gunner

Damn nice shootin' irons there Otter

And Yes Cross, fine thread, and I hope you dont mind me and my stupid questions.

Gunner

No, I did not, Sir,....

GTC

Ok thanks, I was thinking that if you did you might be there next year, I would look you up to meet you.

If you let a few folks know you are coming, chances are, someone will bring a spare rifle and ammo and you can shoot the whole damn thing. No sense standing around. Someone might mistake you for Swampie....

Oh chit....I'll be busy shootin' then, and not leaning on any mountain howitzers and grinnin' foe the camera

Gunner

And when ET and I head out West, I'll be loaded to the gills with my own supplies, but have an open ear for experience gathering.

Gunner

Gunner about all you need worry about for cleaning supplies is having a good supply of patches, and a dab of your favored gun oil, we got water...

10-4, thanks again Ranch

Gunner

Wow! A nice thread here! What's going on?

I'm fairly sure that ain't gonna happen...

I honestly think that what we're seeing in those severely worn forends is "Wagon Box Wear", ET.

Those guns traveled long hard trails, it rough conveyances.

GTC

GTC

The guns and pics that I HAVE seen have the wear on both sides of the forearm just aheagd of the receiver. Right about where a set of unpadded cross sticks would be cradling the rifle. Some it was dang near two grooves. All I can say is that they burned MANY thousands of rounds downrange at the bufflers.

Thing is , the SAME wear turns up on all sortsa' "Non-Buffalo Guns" of that era, too.

Jump up an a wagon seat, and lean a rifle against your leg, or against the seat side rail,....handy like. See where the Oak lands on the forend.

See what I'm getting at ?

There's a fellow named Red that writes for Garbe quite a bit,.....he wrung this out well some years ago, IIRC.

GTC

LMAO Tex,

Gunner

The USPS needs to hook up another string of ponies to the wagon.......still haven't received my dang paper patching supplies and bullets yet

Gunner

Gunner, you may have posted this earlier, but what kind of paper patched bullets are you looking for, that is, what kind of shooting do you plan to do with them?

I have had decent results shooting PP in target loads in my .45-70.

Paul

Hey Paul, my rifle is a C Sharps '74 model chambered in 45-120 with a 32" heavy barrel.

I will develope a target and hunting load all in one, will start with the 550 gn pure lead PP bullet, have the onion paper, template, bullets, and rooster lube on the way.

Gunner

Gunner, the all in one load rarely turns out very well, at least if you are fairly picky about what constitutes a target load.

What bullet (mould, swage, mathematical description, or whatever) are you planning on using?

This is a bit out of date, but you might find it useful
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB.htm

You would do well to heed what Brent says. There are few who have as much experience and success with both hunting and competitive BPCR target shooting.

That said, you have to determine your own goals and criteria.

As I have often noted, to be successful with BPCR it helps to approach it with an open mind and a touch of humility. Trying to build on experience with more modern hardware tends to lengthen the learning curve.

Paul

Thanks Gentlemen, my rifle measures, .450 and .458, If I can develop a target/hunting load that allows me to shoot 2" groups at 100 with the buckhorns that should cover it for me at this early stage.

Keeping in mind I will of course need to be able to unload the rifle in a hunting situation without leaving a PP bullet stuck in the bore

Cross, I hope You dont think i'm hijacking, that is certainly not my intent, just here to learn about BPCR shooting matches and PP bullets.

Gunner

Well, you certainly don't need to be able to unload w/o a bullet remaining in the barrel, though it is a bit more convenient, hardly important.

2" at 100 should not be too much trouble. That's not a competitive target load, but it will do reasonably well for hunting out to 200 or so.

I've spent way too much time and money trying to make hunting rifles and loads work at target shooting. I cannot warn against it strongly enough - not if you want a competitive target load.

This rifle will shoot a hunting load like you are looking for. It is a .45-70 and uses paper patches and black powder.

But it's a Maynard!!!!

Strangest looking Maynard I've ever seen...

It's the one without the M and the N,....with the B and 2 Ls, Mister.

awestruck at your vast savvy here.

Got any other tricks ?

GTC

What about the "y"?

BRAINCRAMP!!!!! Ballard.

I live with braincramps LOL

Gunner

Ballard Pacific (#5) to be more precise.

Here is the same idea - different rifle.

ET has a better chance of identifying this one.

Yep! THAT is an Eargesschplittenloudenboomer if'n I ver saw one!!

Gotta keep you one-trick ponies happy

actually I was so punchy last nite that I would called a roller skate a truck. It happens evry so often. Not that I get to handle many Ballards OR Maynards, but when my brain ain't fogbound I recognize them.

Maybe you should let me build you a "Mallard", Jim.

Let's brainstorm combining all of the best features of the Maynard and Ballard.

A project of this magnitude might inspire me to dig out my last billet of Unobtanium, and those rarest of Stock Blanks I brought back from Lower Revoltum.

GTC

Don

And...as usual you guys are freezing ya azzes off and dodging rain and other whatnot!

What in the heck has the guy got wrapped around his ankles?? Looks like plastic baggies!!

Bags of lead shot to prevent blowing away.

If I am able to develop a pure lead 550 gn PP load at 1500 fps and 2" iron sight groups at 100 yds, what am I missing that it wont be a good hunting and target practice load?

Gunner

Quite possibly, you'd be missing nothing.

Again, it depends on your goals and criteria. You said target "practice". It is always a good idea to practice shooting with your hunting rifle under approximated field conditions. OTOH, a hunting load with a soft bullet is unlikely to maintain accuracy at typical competition ranges. Nose slump with soft bullets in part of the problem. You might have seen my post in which I mentioned that serious competitive ranges begin at the outer limits of practical hunting distances. That is the main difference Brent was referring to.

Hunting and informal target shooting are pretty much the same ballgame; serious BPCR competition is something altogether different.

Happy Easter to all!

Paul

Thanks for the clarification Paul, that is what I was missing, I now see, serious BPCR shooting, and hunting loads are a horse of a different color.

On the subject of nose slump, can I not have, or learn to cast my hunting loads 20 or 30 to 1 and still paper patch, and therefore avoid nose slump and still get adequate expansion on game animals?

Gunner

Also, when the charge of BP kicks the PP bullet in the tail on ignition, will it remove enough of the gentle crimp so it wont tear the patch?

Looking at some sort of easy crimp so the bullets wont fall out of the cases of my cartridge belt while on and off horses or mules and walking in the woods and such.

Gunner

Depends on several things, you got to try your ideas and go. 1-20 in my 50 shoots well but just gives a 50 cal hole in antelope and deer. 1-40 in my 45 punched holes in antelope without much evidence of expansion. You gotta keep it in mind though that 45 and 50 cal holes thru the boiler room are nothing to snear at .Magnum Man

Thanks MM, yes, 45 and 50 cals. do cause much leakage .

And safe to say on larger animals like elk, moose, and buffler, expansion and penetration will be present?

Gunner

Basically, that's correct. However, I have no experience with patched BP hunting loads. I'll defer to others on that subject. At least with my shallow-seated PP match loads, the slight crimp is just enough to keep the bullet in the case. They must be handled, and transported, very gently. Wouldn't work for hunting. At a minimum, I'd assume that hunting bullets would need to be seated more deeply, as with original Sharps cartridges. Come to think of it, attempting to duplicate those historic rounds would seem to be a good approach.

Paul

10-4, will do just that , dinner table is 4'X10', Wifey has got me set up with a S/S scalpel and some sort of self healing block to cut my paper patches out on.

Gunner

I have found that the slight flatnose profile that comes with nose pour pp bullets and 30:1 alloy do seem to initiate the bullet to expand quite nicely. I seat 1/4" or a bit deeper. The comp shooters don't seem to use any patch lube but they are mostly in the dry West where it is a mite wetter around here so I use the Rooster Jacket lube. It does a very fair job of protecting the patch and has given me no probs that I can define.

Thanks ET, i want to use the rooster lube as well as an over powder gasket wad, grease cookie, and another two gasket wads over the lube disc.

This is gonna be a fun test in patience and resolve, oh, and dead animals

Gunner

Yep, and having just returned from AZ, I can testify that match shooters there wipe the heck out of their bores between shots, whether shooting paper patched or grease grooved bullets. Not at all pratical for hunting. If you can't chamber a round, or have to extract it, you're going to be needing a rod through the muzzle.

Speaking of hard-to-seat seating rounds, a seater, also called a safety seater, is a good tool to have in your kit.

Paul

It seems that the old buffler hunters' slugs were nose pour TAPERED pp slugs while the oldtime match shooters used straight shanked slugs. Even the old sharps Company described passing tight fitting corks then a wet rag down the bore between shots at matches. Not much has changed actually. I read where buff hunters generally would run a wet patch down the pipe after about 5 shots or so. Fouling would frig up accuracy if they didn't.

Been doing a little re-vestigating on the PP process and it seems a dab of Sprite on the patch adds enough sticky so the patch will roll on well and stay in place while it dries.

Wish they would hurry up with my order so i can begin patching bullets, and stop asking so many ignorant questions.

Gunner

Sprite?? IIRC,Brent uses egg whites. I just use water. I wouldn't want for the sugar in the sprite to actually do a real sticky (as in bond) the patch to the slug. When the water dampened patch dries out, it tends to stay rolled. I leave 'em sit for a few days before I put on the Rooster. Keep in mind that the Rooster Jacket lube is exterior,NOT bullet to patch contact.

Thanks again Jim, duly noted

Gunner

Yeah, keep in mind how the patches turned to confetti when they cleared the muzzle of the rifle. You want the patch to give complete and clean separation from the slug.

Gack! Sprite! Egg whites! No way.

I used to use plain water. Now I use plain nothing. Just roll on dry. Stay away from sticky stuff.

If you think you really must have a patch preservative there are some spray-on art fixatives that can be used (avoid Krylon) but I quit that 12-15 yrs ago.

I haven't used pure lead paper patched bullets in a long time but they do work fine with short nosed bullets. I like flat points most definitely and I cast them as hard as 30:1 sometimes, but 40:1 makes me happier.

I do want expansion. I insist on it. So, here's what the end result is like:

This is a buck antelope shot on from the front left shoulder, exit left belly, DRT. This was closer to head on than quartering. Bullet was 475 grs 40:1 paper patched, .45-70.



This deer was shot using the identical bullet, but this time, dead broadside, shattering both shoulders. Shot was right at 200 yds and a titch using a muzzleloader and 100 grs of Swiss 1.5 fg. This is the exit. This deer ran 150=200 yds flat out like a Kentucky Derby colt. And then piled up. There is a pencil in the exit hole.



Same deer entrance side after the shoulder has been removed.

He called them his Wal Mart Gaters....
That one was wet, cold and windy.

Yes ET, confetti in the Black Smoke

Gunner

USPS sent my dang order to Californey 'spose to be here Thursday........dangittt!!!

Gunner

And nice holes in that table fare there Brent.

Gunner

Surprisingly, the buck was perfectly fine for butchering. 100% meat recovery on that one. The doe whitetail - not so much. My dogs don't mind however.

The point with the latter however is to note the size of the exit hole. With 40:1 a flatnose - even at extended range for a blackpowder rifle, still got lots of expansion. That is really the point I was trying to make. The degree of bloodshot meat varies hugely. That buck antelope had zero bloodshot meat.

Brent

I must admit i was surprised at the amount of bloodshot meat with the lower velocity lead bullets, spect, momentum being mass in motion has a bit to do with it.

Gunner

Hey all you experienced BPCR hands, whats your favorite primer for shooting matches and hunting loads?

Gunner

CCI-BR2

I like the cci 350 magnum pistol primer for most match loads, and either winchester or cci large rifle primers, depending on the load and the brand of case.

Crap, thanks guys, does the above mentioned advise still apply to the 45-120 Sharps?

Sorry i forgot to mention particular cartridge.

Gunner

My take is that there is no established, agreed upon, "best" primer for BPCR. If you read some of the earlier publications, magnum rifle primers were recommended. Now some have gone to the opposite extreme using pistol primers.

Me, I use mostly Federal 210 Match rifle primers for competition loads, but I haven't done any rigorous comparisons. It's on my list of things to do.

My sense is that primers aren't a major factor in BPCR accuracy.

Paul

10-roger, thanks Paul, have just received info on the Wolf primers, and i have CCI-350's, Fed 210 and 215's on hand.

Gunner