Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 9.3X62 CZ550 VS 375 Ruger Hawkeye - difference in recoil is - wow !

But ALSO same barrel length! I had a 22" .375 H&H and no matter what I put into it, or how much, it wouldn't get anywhere near 2600. About 2530 to 2550 fps was absolute max, and I'm sure that was at much more than 60,000.

My Tikka has a 22.4" tube. I'll not vouch for pressure as I have no way of measuring it other than a computer program. There's no data that I could find for RL-17 in a 9.3 X 62 other than RealGuns, and their data gave the best results of ANY powder overall for accuracy and velocity, from a Ruger African (23" barrel).

It was that info that got me trying RL-17. At first I was not happy with it as I was not getting near the results suggested by that source. After all the burning rate is supposed to be equivalent to IMR4350, which I knew would be too slow. However a friend encouraged me to give it another try using more of it. Since I can seat the N.P. to magazine length, I can crowd in another 4 or 5 grains. All I'll say is if you want the data go to my website and read the disclaimer as well as the data.

It APPEARS to be safe in MY rifle. But more testing is required. Another poster mentions 2550 from the 286 NP in a 24". From my initial trial, I'd say that's easily possible using RL-17... IN MY GUN!!! He didn't mention what powder he was using.

All I'm saying, and I've done the profiles using 2 different ballistics software, is that the 9.3 X 62 is in the same ballpark as the 375 H&H, when each is loaded with the best NP available for each, barrel lengths equal.

I did get 2700 fps from a 26" .375 H&H using a 300 NP, but the rifle was so inaccurate I gave up on it for a 340 WBY. The M70 I had in .375 H&H (24") wouldn't make 2600 fps from several 300s no matter what I did to obtain that MV. As we all know, rifles are individuals... that's why I emphasize "IN MY RIFLE"

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

That statement is loaded with assumptions, but I'll not take the time to point them out as they should be obvious to any experienced handloader.

I spent over two decades working with one ancient cartridge with modern components in modern rifles. The results I obtained were being overlooked and/or denied by some authors, manuals and others "in the know". That is until just a few years ago.

When I sent my data to a well-known and respected powder company in the USA (I couldn't get loaded ammo across the border into the USA)they tested it for me. The chief ballistics engineer was amazed, if not shocked, by the results, as I was using one of their powders! When he phoned me with the results, a few weeks later, the first words out of his mouth were: "You have just reinvented the 458 Winchester Magnum!"

The cartridge, of course, was the .45-70 firing a 500gr Hornady from two 22" barreled single-shot Rugers; a No.1 and a No. 3. They gave identical results (within 10 fps), at just over 2000 fps. PSI (not CUP) was 63, 200 in their setup (machine rest - 24")at 4 fps less than 2100 fps! More than SAAMI! You betcha! But safe in the Ruger without qualms from the chief ballistics guy. I'll not mention names as that's inappropriate here.

Since then, I've long-throated (by .30") a new Ruger #1 in .45-70 and it is fully equal to a 22" .458 Win Mag with best handloads in each. 2 hrs ago, I sent off another manual on .45-70 supreme loads to a fellow in British Columbia. As a matter of fact, there is still great interest in the .45-70, as I receive requests from Australia, Europe, USA and Canada.

My next project just might be the 9.3 X 62...

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

it seems that you've just proven the Redhead's point...

Seems that way to me as well.

I agree with RH on the 280 AI. I own both a 280 Rem and several 7RM, plus a 7WSM, and have had 7x57, and 7 SAUM. I've loaded for a 7mm-08, 7 STW, 284 win. I'm well acquanted with 7mm's. For giggles, I ran my 7 SAUM with the same bullets as my 2 7RM's and they kind of close - within ~ 75 ft/sec - but I see 280 AI vels that exceed my 26" barrel 7RM loads. Ain't happening at 63k psi................

I've also considered the 9.3x62 based on MD's writing and loads. At the end of the day, a 286 gr bullet moving 2450 is pretty darn close in the recoil department to an H+H running a 300 at 2450 given like length barrel and gun weight. In fact, the 375 can recoil less if the gun weighs the typical 9 - 9.5 lbs and loads are kept on the lower side of the spectrum. I bought a 375 Ruger instead of buying a 9.3. I can download the Ruger to 9.3 speeds or run it faster. In a 9.25 lb rifle, the 375 can be loaded to 35-38 ft/lbs of recoil. Calculated recoil on an 8.5lb 9.3x62 running a 286 at 2450 is almost identical. The difference being the 375 can be run higher if so desired.

Running the 375 up to max loads is a whole nother kettle of fish. A 9.25 lb 375 running max 270/300's recoils 45+ ft/lbs. I'm not sure a guy needs 2650 from a 300 gr bullet to kill anything that needs killing with a bigger hammer.

[quote=Big_Redhead)

...not hard to jack up the pressure... I see people use this method on here all the time to justify their personal preferences in cartridges. ... It's laughable.
[/quote]

So, I guess I'm gonna have to point out some assumptions after all:

1) "not hard to jack up pressure" -- Really? What is your experience on that? And what were the results?

Elmer Keith did that back in his day with the .45-70. It was HIS article in a 1951 GUN DIGEST that got me thinking. NOT... I repeat, NOT some desire on my part to justify a preference for the .45-70! What did Keith promote in that article? That the .45-70 was capable of slinging a 400gr at 2000 fps @ 40,000 "psi", as he called it. It turns out he was right, yet NO writer (to my knowledge), or manual picked up on it! Yet 60 years later it's fairly common knowledge among aficionados of the .45-70! However, I started doing it back in the '80's, and so did Brian Pearce... and yet I never saw an article by him on it until about 10 years ago. I wonder why? Did he "jack up pressure" to 40,000 psi to justify his use and promotion of the .45-70?

So, my motive was what? My motive was a very simple one: to get the best from a rifle and cartridge of which it was safely possible! That's it! The same holds true for the 9.3 X 62. In fact, I was not looking for a 9.3 X 62... I didn't even like 'em because they were "foreign"! I was actually looking for another .35 Whelen. And, I came across an article or two by JB that got me thinking (as Elmer did back in the '80s). Then, I came across an exceptional buy in a new Tikka 9.3 X 62, and I bought it.

Like everyone else, I expected something between 2400 and 2500 fps. That's what I was getting from RL-15, about 2465 max, with good accuracy from 286gr Hornadys. I used that in hunting last year. No disappointment there. But then I found info on the RealGuns site that showed RL-17 giving over 2500 fps for all 285 -286grainers with exceptional accuracy. I thought I'd give it a try as a number of users of RL-17 were suggesting they were getting 100 fps over "normal" powders. I really didn't expect much advantage in the 9.3 for the reasons already mentioned... and I'd given up on it, as mentioned, until a friend encouraged to continue with it. I did. Therefore, I've posted ONLY to encourage others to give it a try.

2) "It's laughable". It's laughable that pioneers and experimenters have pushed parameters? That they don't accept the status quo? Or that they don't always go "by the book"?
Maybe America should get back to some of that! I guess I'm just one of those "laughable" guys! The rest can take the road to "snoozeville", if that's what they prefer.

I'm not offended, but I'll stick to what I'm learning about the 9.3 X 62, because I don't think the last chapter has been written yet, anymore that it was on the .45-70 when it was "replaced" by "modern era" .30-caliber, high velocity cartridges.

Yes, it works well enough at 2400... but just maybe it'll work better at .... ? I'm curious enough to have to find out for myself... that's just who I am, and have been all of my 76 years.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Could you post the pressure curves for each? I'm curious how a cartridge with less capacity, by almost 25%, can run with a larger capacity case given same barrel length and pressures.

The key to all miraculous velocities is always contained in the phrase "in my rifle". Physics usually don't apply when that phrase is utterred. I think the phrase is magic.

the term "best NP available" must be the secret

I am interested in CZ550's loads simply because we don't get ramshot powders here in Australia but I can get RL17 no probs. However, how do you know whether something is safe given there is no reloading data for it. This is not to [bleep] CZ, it is a genuine question. I have been to his site, read the loads and wonder what the pressure being generated is.

I am often cautious of using internet loads but appreciate that there are times when limited loading data is available, as is the case here. I also like the fact that people pioneer and experiment, otherwise improvements are often missed...however when things go bang close to my eyes and face, I like to know the testing has been "proofed" prior to pulling the trigger.

(No offence meant CZ550 if any was taken)

Find a guy from Houston named "BFaucett" I think it is, either here on the 'fire or over at AR. When I first started reloading for my 2002 edition CZ American 9.3 some 5 years ago, I used Bob's info sheet he had assembled from Handloader as a guide, and settled on a successful WTail round for me anyway... a very stiff load of RL15, in a Graf/Privi case with a WLR torch under a Speer 270gr SP (ie...the Finn Aagaard load from Handloader #199 7/99 @ 2483fps out of a CZ 550 rifle length barrel only in RP brass)...that gives me sub moa groups with a Burris FF II 3x9BPlex in BSquare rings on top as many times as I want to pull the out of the box trigger.

Good bullet performance out of the old Speers so far with 4 down and only one of 'em ran about 25-30 yards with no working main pump or HVAC...but these were lil 90-140lb Texas WTails hit at 125-250 yards too and NOT the 300lb+ porkers I was hunting last couple trips out. 1st lil guy, a 3 yr old with 9" spikes on both sides, got a 35' ride back up the game trail and left a 6'x12' spray pattern behind at the POI ...that only left a 50 cent piece sized exit wound outta of the center of the off shoulder ...and impressed me to no end!with NO meat loss.

I found some old Nosler 250grBT's that I've begun to play with and the faster I run them with RL 15 the better they shoot it seems....but we ain't done yet at MOA +/- and still mebbe 2+ gr's under the heavier Speer loads max max...sure would like to see some Nosler 250gr AB blems sometimes soon and I'd just almost forget the load workup needed for the couple hunnert Privi 285gr SP's on hand and call it done.

OBTW I set the Burris BPlex up so's I can get 425 yards dead nutz on the bottom step according to the drop chart, with a 165 yard Zero, @ an easy mini scootch under +2"s at 100 yards, that has proven to be pretty much dead on accurate. I ain't gonna change it anyhow. Hope this helps.

IMO if I needed a SHTF shooter to feed & defend myself with this'n would be the doall anywhere one ...to go along with a CZ 452 22lr.
Ron

Now, let's be polite, TOAD

The best, as I assume "everyone" discussing this subject with a sarcastic tone, would know is the 300gr Nosler Partition in the .375 H&H and the 286gr Nosler Partition in the 9.3 X 62.

GSSP (above) said he was getting 2550 fps from the 286 Partition.
That's in the ball park with the 300gr NP at 2550, but the 286 has a BC of .482 whereas the 300 has a BC of .398. At 25 yards the 286 has passed the 300 in speed and at 200 yards in momentum and energy. So, I'd say they're in the same ball park!

It would seem to me that some have not read, or taken seriously, my post about my experience with .375 H&H's. I've done exactly the same with those as I'm doing with the 9.3 X 62... trying to get the best performance within SAFE pressure!

To reiterate: I got 2700 fps from the 300gr NP from a 26" barrel. From a 24" M70, I reach a max of 2560 fps -- never made 2600 with the powders available at the time. I know that today with the best powders that 2600 is doable with 300s, and perhaps 2650 in certain 24" barrels. In my 22" .375 H&H, I made 2550 from RL-15, and that was REALLY pushing things -- MORE THAN WHAT I'M NOW DOING WITH RL-17 IN THE 9.3 x 62! (As mentioned, my barrel length is 22.4")

Apart from my experience, what is yours and bwinters in .375 H&H's? And, a 9.3 X 62 using RL-17?

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

And oh... it's an interesting concept, but how does a .300 WSM get the same velocity from the same 180gr bullet in equal length barrels from 68grs powder when it takes 75grs in a .300 Win Mag?

An interesting study, but there's little doubt that modern powders, case geometry and loading to max psi in modern barrels are the main features.

Now... could it be that these same features contribute to adding 100 fps to modern rifles in 9.3 X 62? Naw, that's not possible. We must keep it in it's place... traditional ballistics is where it's at! After all, if we want more than traditional, then get a REAL modern rifle like a .375 RUM!!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I have a Rem. M700 in 35 Whelen and it is a real pussycat off the bench. Nice rifle.

We same similar taste in rifles! I think that either of these would be an excellent intro into the big bore world. For me, it is a question of nostalgia/class vs. performance/weather-resistance. With respect to terminal performance, I don't expect an overwhelming advantage to the .375 Ruger, but there is some. On the other hand, heavy-for-caliber bullets in the 9.3 have a history of efficacy.

I'll post my supporting arguments and would hope you do the same.

300 WSM v 300 WM - the 300 WM needs more powder to get the same pressure/velocity because it is a bigger case. When run at like pressures with optimal powders the WM outruns the WSM. Have had and loaded for several examples of both.

Ex/ 180 gr boolits: Nosler WSM 3082, WM 3160; Sierra WSM 3000, WM 3100; Hodgdon WSM 2991, WM 3042

I have a bit of experience with the 375 but have only owned 1 - although this isn't about experience with ABC cartridge. Its about reloading acumen and knowing what is happening inside the case when the primer ignites the powder. The Ideal Gas law is as close as I know of explaining what happens inside the case. The simple answer is that bigger cases win the velocity race when like geometry and conditions are used.

For the 9.3 using a 286 and 375 using a 300:
Nosler 9.3, 2414; 375, 2600
Hodgdon 9.3, 2407; 375 2645

More case capcity means more velocity.

I'll assume Nosler used SAAMI/CIP pressure specs to arrive at their data (375 - 62.0k psi)(9.3 - 57.0k psi). I will note that the Hodgdon was run at 46.3 CUP for the 9.3, 49.5 CUP for the 375. Even though the 9.3 could be gased a bit more, it isn't going to overcome the 200+ ft/sec between them.

Powder ignition isn't linear but a close approximation is 1 gr of powder equals 2500 psi and 35-40 ft/sec derived from 180 gr bullets from a 30-06 using pressure tested data and 6 powders. I would not use that relationship when working at top end loads - in general pressure rises faster than the linear relationship suggests at 63-70k psi.

Re 17 - I've used a good bit of Re 17. I believe it to be faster than either 4350. I can make my WSM's run faster using Re17 but not by 100 ft/sec. It is a good powder and does add a bit as Alliant's own website indicates - even though they used some rather generic velocities for the cartridge/bullet combos. In fact, I can pick alot of non Re17 powders to reach and exceed the vels quoted in the Re 17 literature. It ain't magic.

i've dabbled with RE17 in various .375s for about a year now. it is pretty good in the .375 AI, but it is not a miracle worker. 7828 can best it by ~50 fps with the 270 gr. TSX. it produces the best speeds in my .376 Steyr, but H495 makes it group like a bench gun and only gives up ~30 fps. it's too fast for max efforts from the RUM

seriously, if smaller case capacity/smaller bore was the ticket, the .22 Hornet would rule the world.

bwinters and toad;

Because it's very late and a long day ahead, I'll not respond in detail just now.

You both make some valid points... up to a point. I'm in no way talking about small cases "beating" larger cases. Or even promoting it. That's not what this is about.

It's not about "magic" either... that's insulting.

I've been a hunter for about 60 years, but I started handloading something over 30 years ago. In that time I've loaded many well-known cartridges from the 22 Hornet to the 458 WM. I think a total of 2 primers were blown, and that was due to a book load for a 35 Whelen.

Two other book loads: one in 375 H&H gave me 2700+ fps from a 300gr in a 26" barrel. Another gave me 2842 fps from a 250gr in a 338 Win Mag with a 26" tube. No apparent problems with either. No cup or psi numbers were given by the books.

Re: the 500gr Hor from 53.1 grs IMR 3031 in a Ruger No.1 45-70:

Hornady says: 1800 fps @ 50,000 cup.

Lyman says: 1879 fps (26") at 39,000 cup.

I'm not questioning your book knowledge, but frankly the books don't often agree, and sometimes that disagreement is pronounced. I make it a point of talking directly to chief ballistic engineers whenever possible, and what I've found from my personal experience and those conversations is that there are too many variables and anomalies to predict what is happening, or going to happen, in any given series of tests. One reason being that they don't have the time or resources to test everything, so projections are given.

I mentioned that the head ballistics guy was surprised by the results from a load they tested for me. But, in fact they had to seat the 500gr Hor 1/10" deeper than my specs because of a shorter throat. Everything else was the same except for 2 factors: their COL was 2.83" and mine was 2.93". They used a 24" test barrel and I was using a 22" Ruger barrel. They got 2100 fps and I was getting just a tad over 2000. Their psi was 63,200 avg and he said mine would be less, and safe! Extreme spread was less than 10 fps. I checked with a Ruger rep, asking about the strength of that rifle (No.1 in 45-70)and he said, quote: "It can be compared to our .458 Win Mag".

Some of the things you didn't address: barrel length and COL. I've read Hodgdon's numbers, and as many others as I could locate, including Nosler. That doesn't mean too much as they HAVE to respect the strength of old rifles and brass made for CIP specs. You know, I believe, that 50,000 cup for a 30-06 doesn't represent it's full potential with modern components and metallurgy. You also know that 57,000 cup doesn't represent the full potential of the 9.3 X 62 in modern rifles with the best modern components. When you quote 2600 fps for the 375 H&H... that's not news! But that's from a 24" barrel.

In your estimation, what would you get from a 22.4". I got 2530 to 2550 (pushing it) with the best powder of the day from a 22". You are addressing me as though I'm some kind of irresponsible person! There are others on here, and elsewhere, who freely admit they are getting OVER 2500 fps from 286s. Check, please, RealGuns, where they received OVER 2500 fps for 285s and 286s using RL-17.

I've nowhere implied my tests were final, au contraire mon ami, I've stated on my blog that MORE testing has to be done.

Nonetheless, I'll stand by the notion that there is little difference between a 300gr/.375"/.305sd at 2550 and a 286gr/.366/.305sd at 2500+ fps! If RealGuns is free to publish their findings without giving cup/psi, then so will I!

In 32 years of handloading, 2 primers blown and no guns wrecked or people hurt (except for the animals)

I think I'll just carry on...

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

That should have been 47,000 cup for the 9.3 not 57,000.

It was 2am and I needed some sleep!

Sorry about that.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca