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What would really drive you nuts is the "fact checking" done by National Geographic.

I did an article for NG on the Missouri Breaks in the late 1990's. The editor loved it, and sent me a nice check really quickly, but pretty soon I was contacted by one of the 275 fact checkers then employed by the Society.

Among other things, she contested my statement about several inches of snow being on the ground in the early December in Jordan, Montana. She said the nearest weather station hadn't recorded any snow in December by that date. I had no explanation for that, but did walk around in the snow in Jordan. After two weeks of badgering me every other day or so, she finally called (ay 10:30 in the evening) and said, really quickly, "There was a snowstorm on November 29th," then hung up.

She also questioned Steve's Fork of Big Dry Creek, the name of a really dry drainage where one of the ranchers I interviewed lived. It is called Steve's Fork on the road signs in the area, and on every map in existence EXCEPT the really old USGS map--which calls it Steve Forks, an obvious typo. I told her all that, but when the article came out there was Steve Forks.

Several other people I know who've written for NG have told me similar stories. One was assigned to write up Seney, Michigan and the Fox River that flows through it, the area Hemingway wrote about in his famous short story "Big Two-Hearted River." Not only did the fact-checkers pester him continuously for three weeks, but the photographer used photos from a DIFFERENT river, because the Fox wasn't scenic enough.


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I'm currently reading A Life on Safari by Geoff Broom and Craig Boddington. It's not that uncommon to find a few errors in a book, but this one has more than a few. Enough that it is noticeable. I wonder if it was too close to a deadline to really get a good proof reading.


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I agree with many of the observations made so far, particularly that good proof-readers are harder to find than good writers. One additional thought, though this doesn't go to the causes behind the increase in simple grammatical and spelling errors, is that there are a wide variety of style manuals available today and not all publications have adopted a single manual, or, if they have, they may not hew to it consistently.

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Originally Posted by Everyday Hunter
Originally Posted by rattler
probably because good proofreaders are extremely hard to find, atleast from what ive seen in the newspaper world....

Newspapers are notoriously inept when it comes to proofreading -- for a couple of reasons. One is that they are slash-and-burn artists. Another is that they generally know better than they do because pressure to meet daily deadlines allows little time for proofing. Also, small local dailies generally have limited staff and low wages because journalists with better educations often migrate to larger cities and larger newspapers. (Our local daily seems to be an exception to that -- it has more than its share of good people compared to other small local dailies I've seen. Evidence of that is that its writers regularly win awards for their work.) Consequently, in situations with limited staff, the people who write the stories do their own proofing, and it's harder to see your own mistakes when you're overly familiar with the writing. Our brains tend to make us see what we know we're supposed to be seeing.

Back when I wrote direct mail, we proofed in several ways. One was to have the writer read aloud to another writer, pronouncing every word with little inflection, and actually naming case, punctuation, while the other writer meticulously marked for corrections. So, I would say, "Capital B Back when I wrote direct mail comma we proofed in several ways period". We produced thousands of brochures every year, and on average made only one or two mistakes each year.

On the subject of proofing by reading backwards, one new writer came along and she learned that technique in college and she thought it was the greatest thing since moveable type. But we quickly found what to be as unreliable as spellcheck. The mistake in the preceding sentence could not be found if we proofed by reading backwards: "spellcheck as unreliable as be to what found quickly we But."

I would say there are several reasons good proofreaders don't exist. Among them:

1. Many publishers don't hire proofreaders anymore. That job has been eliminated and its responsibilities absorbed by the writers.
2. A corollary of that reason is the pressure to make profits -- by cutting a job that is viewed as low-skilled, that salary can be added to the bottom line.
3. We have fewer people who know good writing, good reading, good usage, etc. It's a function of our educational system in general.

Steve.


as i said above a good proofreader is hard to find cause its a mindset thats not often come across......the two best proofreaders i know are only so-so writers.....while their knowledge of grammar and sentence structure is outstanding their ability to write a readable story is lacking.....also in this day and age someone who is a good proofreader isnt usually working for smaller newspapers and magazines like those of Wolfe, why? cause with the internet they can work freelance for alot more money for individuals that will pay through the nose for a one time look over.....an amount i cant pay myself let alone a damn good proofreader....


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This is on me.

For the past forty eight years I have made my living as a verbal communicator. I would not have passed high school English if it had not been for the New York State Regents exam. I have no college but I do have an advanced degree in dyslexia. This man is very aware of his own proclivity towards errant spelling and sometimes unintelligible sentence structure.

Many years ago my wife had the responsibility of producing the weekly church bulletin. One week she had other responsibilities away from home and as a loving husband I produced the bulletin for her with out telling her so. When she returned home I had a nice surprise ready for her. I made her favorite tea, sat her down at the dining room table, served the tea, and presented her with the bulletin. When I gave her the bulletin I actually tossed it onto the table in front of her and exclaimed "look at this Babe." The paper was still moving when she quickly stuck her finger near the center of the page and said, "you misspelled this word."

May I raise a question? Why is it that I usually see misspells and odd sentence structure when done by others yet frequently miss my own?
The above story is true and yet I know that when any proofreader reads it he will probably smack his forehead with the palm of his hand and utter the misstatement, "Oh, My God!"

Jim


BE STRONG IN THE LORD, AND IN HIS MIGHTY POWER. ~ Ephesians 6:10

Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
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and the gospel of envy,
its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
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I can't disagree with anything that has been said here. The blame is primarily a dependence on computer spell-check programs and cost-cutting on smaller publications. As Mule Deer said, the big magazines are very thorough. My articles in the New York Times Magazine and Reader's Digest put me and my subjects through the ringer. But, my little local newspaper -- where my career began -- is atrocious. Every issue has a list of corrections from the previous issue. For them I will add one more category of blame: LAZINESS. Just flat lazy.

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I don't blame computers. They don't write anything. I blame people, and I think the biggest reason is apathy. It is absolutely rampant in society today, and not just in writing. People just do not give a rip! Just about everything I buy or have done by someone is done incorrectly. Manufacturing quality is a perfect example. I admit to being a perfectionist, and overly critical of things, but it is beyond ridiculous today! Spelling? Grammar? What's that? There are no rules any more. The online version of Merriam Webster's dictionary includes every conceivable pronunciation of every word. They actually had a video clip on their website stating that if a certain pronunciation is commonly used, it is included regardless if it is considered improper by any authority. We are on the path to illiteracy folks, and "there ain't no stoppin' it."


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All dictionaries are based on "common usage," not on arbitrary authority. Common usage is how words originally obtained their meanings, long before humans even had a written language. Dictionaries are just a list of the common meaning of words--"common" in this sense meaning what we mean "in common" with other people who speak the same language. That's how language evolves, and is why the English of 500 or even 100 years ago differs from what we speak today, and why we Americans and the British are separated by a common language.

When Eileen and I were hunting in Ireland five years ago, we started talking about computers and customer service with our Irish hosts. We mentioned how often our service calls were taken by somebody who didn't even speak English as a primary language.

"Oh, it's the same way here!" our friend Liam said. "Our calls go to Scotland, and you can hardly understand a sentence. All full of bloody 'ochs'!"


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There, nuts!
Their nuts.
They're nuts.
___________________

In using one of those phrases you could end up with any of the three if you relied on your computer.

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The governor of Ohio introduced LBJ at one of the Ohio universities with "Welcome to this venereal institution!"

My late friend Joe St Denis (Redfield) refused to return, and always cherished, the Colorado driver's license that identified him as "Joseph St Penis."


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















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I had heard that JB had a difficult time with NG on the facts of his article. They were probably not used to writers who got it right the first time, and every time.

Steve

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Steve,

Thanks very much for the words of confidence, but no writer ever existed who got everything right, all the time!

As one of the most meticulous historical writers I've known once said, "All we can try to do is to make as few mistakes as possible."

Which might be a description of the human condition, at least for most people....


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
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There is actually a wiring in the human brain that makes it all but impossible for a writer to edit his own work. I think I came across this in one of Temple Grandin's books. Because of in-house politics in a publishing company, I once ended-up final-editing one of my novels (copy edit and style edit). It's misery. If I come across the anatomical/physiological description Grandin explained I'll post it. But of course, it has to do with a writer "seeing" what he wants to say or thinks he is saying rather than the words on the screen. The more rewrites you've done the harder it is. That's one reason why topnotch freelance copy editors charge around $80 an hour. Another problem in today's world is the transcription software some people use. I have a friend who ministers all over the world. He was using this software to send an email to a conference host in Regina, SASK. The software could not translate "Regina." You can imagine what these church leaders received instead.

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Originally Posted by mtrancher
There is actually a wiring in the human brain that makes it all but impossible for a writer to edit his own work. I think I came across this in one of Temple Grandin's books. Because of in-house politics in a publishing company, I once ended-up final-editing one of my novels (copy edit and style edit). It's misery. If I come across the anatomical/physiological description Grandin explained I'll post it. But of course, it has to do with a writer "seeing" what he wants to say or thinks he is saying rather than the words on the screen. The more rewrites you've done the harder it is. That's one reason why topnotch freelance copy editors charge around $80 an hour. Another problem in today's world is the transcription software some people use. I have a friend who ministers all over the world. He was using this software to send an email to a conference host in Regina, SASK. The software could not translate "Regina." You can imagine what these church leaders received instead.


a form of that is why i cannot proofread.....my brain does the "auto-correct" thing no matter if its my work or someone elses.....on a related note this very thing is why im the person on staff assigned to decipher the stuff people send in that no one else can figure out.....generally i can....


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mtrancher,

That tendency is reduced the longer we go without re-reading the same stuff--one excellent reason for letting writing sit for days or even weeks before looking at it again.

Obviously, none of us can self-edit perfectly. As one of my editors (at a "really big magazine") once said, "Every writer needs an editor, even editors who write." But the better any professional writer can self-edit, the more stuff the writer will sell, because editors won't have to dink around with the copy very much. This lightens their work-load!

I grew up among writers and writing teachers, and saw how many were semi-frustrated writers. Eventually I realized most weren't good self-editors. As a result, I never wanted to be a teacher, but eventually started teaching a local adult writing class--not because it made significant money, but because it boosted my interest in the craft of writing.

Eileen was always a good teacher, so we co-teach the course--and the main point is always self-editing and rewriting. Ain't none of us good enough to write perfect copy on the first draft. But we can try!



“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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1 of my teachers told us to; "write it, then get it right".

Write it, set it aside for at least 24-hours to let your memory clear itself, and then proof it to "get it right", in terms of grammar, prose, and spelling.

I've only had a few things published, none of which earned me as much as $0.01, so maybe his advise wasn't so good.

EDIT: Or maybe its just me.

Jeff

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I have trouble with "the the", so I often copy my posts onto WORD, run the spell/grammar check, make the corrections, and paste the words back where I want to post them.

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Originally Posted by jpb
Originally Posted by Just a Hunter
"Guns" magazine had several complaints about what the OP wrote. The edtor dismssd the crticsm basiclly saying if you can red it quit bothring us.

Now come on -- that has to be considered baiting on a thread like this! wink

John


Nope. Not baiting. That is what the editor did. Only difference is he put letters in that didn't belong in the word. I only took out letters.

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Originally Posted by mtrancher
There is actually a wiring in the human brain that makes it all but impossible for a writer to edit his own work. I think I came across this in one of Temple Grandin's books. Because of in-house politics in a publishing company, I once ended-up final-editing one of my novels (copy edit and style edit). It's misery. If I come across the anatomical/physiological description Grandin explained I'll post it. But of course, it has to do with a writer "seeing" what he wants to say or thinks he is saying rather than the words on the screen. The more rewrites you've done the harder it is. That's one reason why topnotch freelance copy editors charge around $80 an hour. Another problem in today's world is the transcription software some people use. I have a friend who ministers all over the world. He was using this software to send an email to a conference host in Regina, SASK. The software could not translate "Regina." You can imagine what these church leaders received instead.
If you come across the stuff from Grandin I'd appreciate it if you'd post it. Her insights into animal behavior (especially cattle) are way cool and interesting.

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Just checking everyone's pruf reeding skills. I was wondering how long it would take for a response grin


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