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I PMed him with an apology about day 2 and he replied that all was OK, so, I think that he is just sitting back, laughing and enjoying the ruckus.

That said, there is a clear demonstration here of how some lack even the most rudimentary form of mature behaviour and this is probably an incurable aspect of forums of this kind.

If, you wish to dig into the archives here, using the names of a few who practice this low level of discourse, you may well find some interesting comments, admissions and even posts from a partner of mine and others. You might find these most enlightening and even amusing.

I'm hoping they look into Dana Design Bomb Packs.

And I greatly appreciate the ability, and now encouragement, to be blunt and honest. There's no use talking about gear or experience if there are boundaries that inhibit conveying the truth of our perspective (not to be confused with social courtesies afforded one man to another).

I don't like backpacks without sleeping bag compartments. I'm not a big fan of most panel loader designs, so having access from the bottom often comes in handy on a top loader. More than worth the extra weight to me.

I'd really like to hear how it improves your efficiency.

One thing I've noticed with guys who've really spent a LOT of time on foot in the backcountry is they mostly gravitate to a pack configured almost exactly like a ULA Catalyst, which, of course, was designed by a guy who spent a LOT of time living out of a pack. IE, big single pouch for camp gear, clothes with a pouch on the back/front of the pack to live out of throughout the day.

I also doubt if many of the "sleeping bag zipper" crowd has ever had to actually swim a pack across a swollen river, and therefore knows how to waterproof one when your life literally depends upon knowing how.

I have a ULA Catalyst it is a great pack. It is also a small pack, on large packs I like some type of bottom access. The time I missed and found out I like to have a sleeping bag compartment was with the Kifaru KU5200. That thing was a pain in the a$$ to load and unload. Like a big garbage sack, I would have to dig around forever to find something. With the ULA Catlayst I do not miss it at all, small and enough outside storage to get to what I need.

There's been plenty of times I've wanted a new pair of socks or to grab my cook set or a pair of thermals, and it was much easier, and quicker, to unzip the sleeping bag zipper, reach around the divider, and grab it from underneath the stack. I find it very convenient, particularly in the rain or when winter backpacking when I have a lot of bulky gear.

Enjoy your skepticism. I won't make it my business to get in the way of it.

[quote=ZenoMarx][quote=Take_a_knee] I find it very convenient, particularly in the rain or when winter backpacking when I have a lot of bulky gear.
/quote]

Okay, I'll give you that one, if it's REALLY cold, IE, I don't have to worry much about a dunking, but then, in most terrain, wouldn't you be dragging a pulk?

Definitely too big of a pack for me to have a design without bottom access. A zipper would add several ounces to the lightweight design, but like I said, it would be worth it to me.

That's a tough one...no zipper. I've been pretty spoiled using a Siwash the majority of the time over the last 4 years or so. I've really grown accustomed to the access afforded by the panel loader. Those 3700's are still very tempting though.

I have a ULA Epic and an Ohm, I also have a External Jansport with a small frame, a black diamond ICE, and a Dolores built Osprey as well as a HPG Tara, and a Nathan hydration pack. For fast running, it's usually the nathan, for day hikes, the Tara, for most other things, or large / long day hikes it's usually one of the ULA packs. The external Jansport is good, but more than needed, The Osprey is great, but to heavy as well for all but a hunting pack. I should note, the Ohm has a modified frame, that I have carried 75 lbs in. It is also the pack I took across the San Juans a few weeks ago, in late winter / spring conditions. I do wish it was a bit bigger volume though.

I haven't used compartments for years in packs. I just compartmentalize it while loading. I do find the organization of the Jansport very nice, but I never choose it for organization, just for volume.

I'd like to hear more about that. I didn't think the Ohm had a frame at all. The Circuit has a hoop? IIRC.

I think EdT uses Kifaru laminated stays in his Epic.

vek, I hate to break it to you, but your stated hypothesis misses the mark. You are so far down in the weeds that you can't see daylight.

It's not a question of whether green is better than black in staying hidden. It's a question of whether black on your back is a significant handicap in killing big game.

As Kutenay observed above, any number of things will spook game:



Movement, the sound of human footfalls, human scent, your bipedal upright human form, or your two forward-facing predator eyes focused on the game will all spook it. Using your logic, that would mean that in order to kill game, you need to remain motionless, avoid standing on two legs, avert your eyes, and be silent and scentless. All in the name of "stacking the deck in your favor."

And nothing could be further from the truth. Every season skilled hunters remain upright and bi-pedal, stink, make a little noise, keep their eyes to the front, and move in for the kill. The color of the pack on their back is insignificant compared to the skill with which they manage the important stuff to remain undetected.

If it was called a frontpack, and if it was the same size as the black bear you talked about spotting above, you might have a point worth discussing. But it's neither.

I actually roll in ungulate dung and urine to mask my smell, then crawl on the ground or walk like a duck to hide my human form

Sorry i am being a smart ass, this thread has gone on to long to take it seriously and not have some fun with it

Actually, I know guys who walk in fresh cow dung in some of BC's free range areas, which are among our best big game hunting regions,specifically to mask fresh human scent in their tracks.

I have seen Herefords,Whitetail Deer and a bull Elk and his cows standing within 35 yds.of each other on open but timbered range behind Greenwood,BC and thus I have tried this myself, but, cannot say if it really makes a major difference.

The Elk? A small, but, legal 6x5 and I passed as I do not need meat and I would rather see the Elk propagate in that area, which they have done in the few years since then, so that they will now open Sept. 10 and I expect to be there.

That said, I kinda doubt I would ROLL in it!!!!!

Good one,Kevin, we NEED some fun here!

YOUR question (as opposed to THE question) may well be whether or not black is a handicap. Your answer is no, and you "have data", that data being successful kills wearing black. Well, I got my first muley while wearing a godawful royal blue duofold top. According to some, that may be the most grievous of all hunting fashion errors.

The data you're lacking is regarding what game you've missed seeing because your high contrast pack moving about was noticed without you noticing. Are you willing to state that, if you're moving about unawares of game that's within eyeshot, wearing a high-contrast color doesn't matter regarding remaining undetected?

The diarrheal obviousness that is your latest post doesn't accomplish much, but you do touch on one thing sort of tangentially - hunting is a game of mitigation. Wind to mitigate smell and maybe noise. Cover to mitigate movement and form. I'd rather not have to mitigate any more than I need to, and a camo or orange fleece panel is adding weight to mitigate a high contrast color. As is relying on your own profile to shield the high contrast item from game's view.

Bottom line: prospective customers of Kifaru across this great land and the world issued a collective "WTF" when first finding out that this supposedly great and purpose-built pack was offered only in black.

It is rather telling that black is no longer available. I doubt that's strictly a fashion-related move.

You're right, it is rather telling that black is no longer available, and therefore irrelevant to the OP's question, yet you brought it up and continue to harp on it. Very telling.

I considered pointing that out earlier, but knew you'd get around to it eventually.

And as to your question about me not knowing if I've spooked game or not, let me give you a reasoned hypothesis on that, since you like those. We're talking about a slender-profile day pack, worn on my back. When I stalk game, I move forward. Ergo, the elk have very little chance to see it. If they have little chance to see it, or can only catch a glimpse of a little piece of it, they aren't spooked by it.

See how that works? But you don't have to take my word for it, you can try it yourself. Or, just keep talking about it.

I'll be eating the proof tonight.

I used to take my hunting clothes, crush up some pine boughs, and seal them up in plastic trash bags before the season. Then came the trip where we had a kerosene heater in the back of the truck and it leaked fuel in the bed. All of our stuff was back there, and all of it ended up reeking of kerosene. I killed my biggest whitetail buck that year, by paying better attention to the wind than I ever had before. Helped me learn what's important, and what's not.

I'd GUESS that back when Kifaru first started and choose black as a do-it-all color, they bought a bunch of it for discount and ran with it. Then, after the Military packs came about, in a multitude of colors, Kifaru was no longer able to buy black AND store it in such volumes to make the discount purchases...they simply had to have room for the other colors. After that happened they probably realized they could/should offer color options in the Longhunter and the subsquent sales disparity was the final nail in the coffin.

The point about what game one may miss as a result of the higher visibilty in many if not most game habitats is an interesting and valid one. I don't know how anyone would really be able to determine this in an empirical fashion and, as with so much in hunting-wildlife management, the situation seems to require an "educated guess".

I do not know or care why a given pack maker uses a given colour as I have the packs I will keep until I am no longer physically capable of hunting BC's challenging terrain and they are in "foliage",which seems to work just fine.

My guess is that, while black MAY well spook animals in some situations, as in an Elk watching you creep through timber across a burn, very common here in BC, the other issues I have mentioned are generally more important in this scenario.

I would not choose a black pack over an earth toned one, but, while I do not consider the Kifaru packs equal to MR and certainly not to McHales, especially since,they claim to be "custom" and are not, in my understanding of that term, the colour black is less of an issue than some other aspects of our gear.

Others will differ, some may post photos and others will not and what is REALLY important here,IMHO, is that this forum be a place of learning, mutual respect and even "friendship" and enjoyment for all, regardless of experience levels, kill count or gear one prefers.

I think that most here will agree with that.

Kevin T, good stuff ++++1. phil

I've just got to chuckle at that one!

In your humble opinion you say??? Mutual respect regardless of experience levels...or gear one prefers???

That's really rich coming from you Kute.

I love the angle you're attempting to play here. Sadly, it's pathetically transparent. Of course most people would prefer "that this forum be a place of learning, mutual respect and even "friendship" and enjoyment for all, regardless of experience levels, kill count or gearm one prefers." Unfortunately, you habitually run your argumentative and opinionated mouth, regurgitating ad museum unsubstantiated elements of your background/experience on nearly all of the almost 6000 posts you've made on this message board.

NEWSFLASH: The unsubstantiated charade was tiresome when you first started posting on here and Kifaru a long time ago and like a cancer it has grown to be even more so now. We�ve all heard your speil before countless times! But we haven't seen a damn thing to substantiate any of it. That�s why you�ve been called out. If you can substantiate the things you say you are doing with some pictures. Fine. Great. Wonderful. I�ll have no doubt created more of an egomaniacal message board monster and even I will happily suffer through that eventuality. If not, well, you can go on being the charlatan that many here and elsewhere believe you to be. Your choice amigo!

If you wanted to increase the level of your respect around here, both among everyone that thinks you are a joke and your band of blind faithers, you would do well to emulate the likes of EdT, Luke Moffat, Docb, Evan Hill and countless others that don't engage in ongoing egomaniacal puffery (substantiated or otherwise), provide superlative reviews, and occasionally post a pic or two of trips where they are actually using their gear. Pictures are worth a thousand words as they say.

For what it�s worth, at present, I think Rokslide.com is probably one of the more valuable sources of information out there for the serious backcountry hunter.