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It IS important to look good!

I'm a function over form kind of guy, myself. The "art" side of my brain was the side I was dropped on as an infant.

I am sufficiently intrigued by PPB's and their capabilities that I will go that direction WHEN I get my BPCR. (Hear that E.T.? )

Something about using 100+ year old technology to equal or better most modern technology just stirs my imagination.

Thanks again,

Ed

Ed having experience with both patched and grease bullets, I can say what I said earlier, the patched bullets will take less
windage and elevation than a similar shaped grease groove.
A prime example is a couple years back my rifle went on the fritz, so I finished up the match with my wifes rifle. She shot the relay ahead of me. Our bullets were the same weight and the same velocity. For my patched loads at 435 yds I had to come down 17 minutes from her sight setting and went from 15 minutes of windage to a bit over 5.
You don't have to take my word for it, but you can check with other folks that do shoot both types of bullets, Kenny Wasserburger probably being the best resource, and of course Dan Theodore has written about it extensively.
I do urge folks just starting out in bpcr to start with a grease groove bullet, they are easier to come up with a good accurate load. Then move on to working with the patched bullets,as finding a load to match the greaser accuracy in a standard chamber can be quite a task at times.With all the variances in bullet diameter, paper weight and composition, wad stacks, wiping routine etc, that goes into making an excellent patche load.

Of course the wind and everything else changed. Just doesn't happen any other way. Because there just isn't any possibility that a paper patched bullet takes 1/3! the windage of a groover. Doesn't happen.

To the best of my knowledge Brent you've never shot any matches at Alliance,and you certainly were not at that one. But the minute the relay Carol was in got up, I sat down, adjusted the sticks and there was probably less than 5 minutes time elapsed from her last shot to my first one.
The last time I shot a match with Dick Savage when he was still shooting greasers, he needed 26 minutes of wind at 800, I needed 14 with my patched loads.I don't believe he's shot a greased bullet in a match since then.
Kenny has wrote a good bit on how much less wind and elevation he has to use, so I realize you don't want to take my word for it, but his word surely has the stuff behind it to back it up. Just for kicks and giggles you might want to work up a grease bullet load for one of your rifles then, go shoot the two side by side and let us know what you found out.

Ed if your sincerely set on shooting patched bullets, I suggest when you order a Shiloh , you talk with Kirk about that and pay the extra to have him cut a chamber for patched, and have the rifle made in 45 caliber. The selection of moulds is vast and tested where as the number of other calibers with prooven bullet diameters etc is a lot slimmer with the others.

Tell me where the physics for this 67 reduction in wind effects comes from then. If it were true, EVERY SINGLE LONG RANGE AND BPCR SHOOTER would be using paper patches. And they don't. Not even 10% use them. Out of 23 shooters last weekend, I was the only one using them - you think they wouldn't give their left nuts for bullet that is as great as you claim?

All of these stories are just stories that have no experimental controls, no data behind them, no known aerodynamic theory known to man to support them, but you can say anything you want on the internet.

The side-by-side issue has been done, with my old PPBs that were swaged and the well known NEI 349C. Both were designed by Dick Gunn had near identical BCs and near identical winddrifts, and it proved once more - you are wrong - about this too.

BTW, you might ask Kenny about how he used to love to go on about how nice it was to see paper patch shooters on the line at matches he was shooting in, because he knew he had them beat before he even started shooting.

My how things change.

As I recall the last match the two of you shot at the same match you both shot paper patched, and you got what about 2/3rds the score Kenny got? I suppose it's possible to go bring the scores over here and let folks see them....

Ranch13,

Thank you for your input. Yes, I am very interested in shooting PPB's.
I have shot greasers with smokeless powder for many years and have a supply of .45 Cal greasers sitting on my loading bench right now, waiting for me to decide whether to load some BP under them and try them in my .458WM. I also have a .45-70 Marlin 1895 LTDIII that might get some exercise with BP.
I'm not sure of the lube on these greasers as I did not cast nor lube them. I'm guessing the lube might be a bit stiffer than I would like for BP, but I won't know until I shoot them.

In conversations with Evil Twin, he has mentioned the PP specific chamber, so I'm taken to believe that it would be worth my time to have a Shiloh built with that design.
Is it the jump across the leade of a greaser chamber that causes a PPB to misalign and result in less precision or is there another reason?

Ed

Sure thing. Go for it. Pull up last summers Nationals at Raton while you are at it. Be good to see the comparison. Then let's see, where were your scores at Byers last month? Oh yeah, bring those too. They are still up.

Come on. Let's see 'em!

Ed,
Are you looking for a target rifle or a hunting rifle? It matters a lot with respect to chamber.

It's the lead angle that promotes the better patched bullet shooting. The gentler lead eases the bullet into the rifling and lets the patch do it's thing. In the 45 degree lead angles you have to seat way out, and then paper rings can and will still plaque you unless you go up to shooting groove diameter bullets, and that can be a whole nuther world..
I don't believe shooting black in your 458 will be much of anything other than making noise. The twist is way to fast for anything much under 600 grs at bp velocity.

Yeh I had a good time at Byers.Learned a bunch, and reconfirmed that without a spotter you know, things can be a bit dicey (heard tell of some guy won recently but he had 3 spotters?). Shooting at a range you've never fired a shot at is always a good learning curve.
But long story short shot fairly decent on the 800, then not knowing the full routine and not taking the time to thoroughly clean my gun it sat in the case for a bit over 2 hours in the heat. Well don't you know the fouling set up severe. So going without sight settings at 900 and 1000 with a fouled out barrel, brought about all manner of leading. Didn't expect much for a score to begin with as my rifle and load had never been printed on paper beyond 300 yds.. Also had miscommunication with the spotter on direction of the bullet strike and ended up throwing in about 10 minutes windage going the wrong way on the 900... Might not of had that problem with a spotter I knew and had met prior to being paired with him.
But I'll take that score and I'll be proud of it.
So there you have it. If you got guts enough you can bring the scores from all those matches and post them here, man up and let others be the judge.

Let there be no misunderstanding either. Steve the guy that I got paired with at Byers is a hell of a nice guy, and I'ld be happy to shoot with him anywhere at any time.

Ah yes, the never shot at range would apply to me in PHX too, eh? Or are you the only one that get's to use those excuses?

So, let's see that leaves Raton if you want to compare just me and Kenny shooting on a range that we know equally. Come on, let's see you put them up. I bet you won't. That does not bode well for you.

Put 'em up. You made the threat. Be man enough to follow through. I don't think you will.

And then tell us all how that will prove your point of a 67% wind drift reduction by paper patching. I bet even Kenny won't stand behind that claim. Nor will you if you have to put money on it.

A target rifle that I can hunt with.

My competition days are probably behind me, but I do love to compete against myself and would welcome the opportunity to shoot in BPCR matches, not for the awards, but to learn more, and I would like to hunt with the rifle.

Something along the lines of a Shiloh 1874 Sporter #3 is what I have in mind.

I am open to input!

Ed

No as I recall you shot sillouettes at Phoenix, plus had how many days of practice and then how many days of match shooting.
There were no shots fired at Byers until the called the line hot at the beginning of the match...
Eron runs a tough match.
You know full well Kenny has said over and over and over again that he uses 20 minutes less elevation and less than half the windage with his patched loads.
Grab you some grease groove bullets and put some experience to work..

I understand the gentler handling of the shallow leade angle.

As to shooting BP in my .458, I have a couple of smokeless loads in the 1200-1300fps range with 350gr greaser that are quite accurate. Will BP not do that?

Ed

bp should do that fast and then some, you'll be shooting the same as a 45-90 or nearly so with the capacity of that case, altho I'ld about bet that the case head web is thicker on that .458.
Give it a try, the worst that could happen is you'll have bullets sprayed all over creation and alot of lead to dig out of the gun, after you get everything else taken care of.
The only other guy I know that tried bp in a 458 ended up calling it a day and figured the freebore in his rifle along with the fast twist was making things not work so good.

This one is an Iver Henriksen custom Mauser with a Buhmiller barrel. I have NO idea what the leade looks like and haven't measured the twist. Yet.

I DO know that the bore is the smoothest I have ever seen/felt in a big bore rifle.

As to spraying bullets all over Creation, it wouldn't be the first time one my experiments did that.

Ed