Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Which .338 Barnes TSX for elk?

Klik - thanks for the info.

Dober, I agree 2 holes are preferred, and can understand your concern based on this hunt. Glad the bull died and was recovered.

In the end, all bullets that we discuss are designed to kill, most do, some better than others. True, many are drawn to speed, though I think a balance has to be struck. I.E. a 160 Barnes IMHO is not the way to go, the 185 has been proven effective, esp. in the Fed, but no doubt, they have their limits.

I'd have little concern that a 225 PT or Barnes would fail to exit on about any reasonable angled shot on elk to 350 - 400 yds w/a 338-06, WM or larger. Those rounds are better suited when the chips are down.

Any info btw on how those bullets looked hitting at that range? I assume the 3 slugs were recovered. Any info on distance traveled and shot placement?

Prolly should have used a Mashburn and 175 PTs

That bullet over 70 gns H-4350 is pure sweetness in my 338 WM.

Gunner

Dober, out of curiosity, did you get to look at any of the bullets from that elk? I would be interesested to know what the expansion on those bullets looked like. I would think that 330 yards from the Fed is about max, as far as expansion is concerned, especially with the tougher Barnes bullets. Would love to have an idea of what those bullets looked like. Also, do you recall the details of the shots, ie angle, shoulder, ribs??? Thanks.

It's not out of game, but gave me an idea of what to expect.

The bullet on the left is a 185 TTSX fired out of a .338 Win Mag (not chrony'd but approx. 3000 fps at the muzzle). On the right is a 250gr Partition, again not chrony'd but approximately 2700fps. They were fired into a round of spruce, lengthwise, at 200 yards.

The TTSX penetrated about 50% further than the Partition and caused significantly less damage. As you can see it didn't open up very much.



At 330 yards, on soft lungs...I don't know how much the TTSX would open. My guess is not much, if at all, given what I saw. But I'll never know because I'm using only Partitions from now on.

Interesting test. Is animal tissue and a spruce log similar in consistency?

One would suspect that since spruce is denser than soft tissue, it would cause a bullet to open up more/faster. The really interesting thing for me were the pictures posted by Klikitarik. The bullets came out of animals and they looked very similar to my picture - except his bullets opened up even less. Seems to make sense to me.

Wood isn't high on my list of realistic bullet test media, but I also did a similar test a few years ago when we were camping on a fairly remote island (with no fresh walrus carcasses on which to test bullets ). So I shot some bullets through a fresh driftwood aspen log at 90 yards. (It was still full of sap and very heavy.)



l to r: 200 XFB, same, 225 NAB, 225 NPT, 250 SP IL, same, 250 HC, 250 GS, same.

These are all 35s and were fired from a Norma chambered rifle.

Why not test them on rocks? Rocks are denser than tissue.

What I'm saying is that unless you are testing with a similar medium, all you've really proven is that you can shoot through a bigger tree with a Barnes than you can with a Partition.

Angus, Black baldy, and Limousine cross cattle make excellent test medium, I hate to have cattle get sick and need to be put down, or others dying of old age, or simply finding one that died, but it does happen, and it's expensive, but hell, might as well not waste a perfect opportunity to test bullets.

From 100 to over 2200 lbs and any caliber/bullet, range you wanna shoot 'em at, or angle, I have done a LOT of bullet testing this way, I believe it to be very accurate.

With a tractor and loader, log chain, axe, knife, and chain saw, there is little left to the imagination.

Gunner

Well I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you asked your first question. But I see what you did there with your question and the logical fallacy. Maybe I will test them on rocks; perhaps the Barnes will open up then....
What you claim is not what I have proven. In fact, I have proven very little. Notice how Klikitarik's bullets all opened up nicely? Why did his XFB open up nicely? I've seen the exact same thing in the past too. However, just as in his game recovered TSX bullets, this 185TTSX didn't open up very much at all. On the other hand, his Partition opened up just as nicely as mine. Perhaps it is just a coincedence.

I posted it for people to see - nobody from the forum was there, I may have an axe to grind, you need water content in the medium for proper expansion, you need to hit bone...etc, etc. You can make up your own mind.

Arac,

I don't have an issue with your test. When you mention that you had proven very little, that's basically what I got out of it as well. Your test works for bullet comparison's sake, but taking the jump to a conclusion that the TTSX would not work so well on game because it didn't stand up well on the log test( as you mentioned in an earlier post), seems like a bit of a stretch.

The other 'trend' you might be able to see in this - though the 185 is a 33 while the 200 in my pic is a 35 and I was shooting wet aspen vs spruce, and at a different distance, is that the (petal retaining) TSX may not open as well or as broadly as the older XFB designs. And that seems to hold with what I have seen in the field as well as in tests.

I have also had good luck on game and test media with the old .257" 75gr XFB, .277" 130gr BTX, .284" 160gr XLC and .416" 350gr XFB.

Re; that 300 yds max comment on 338 Fed/185, I'd say that's reasonable. Layne Simpson reported in an ST article his bull died from one at 314 yds IIRC.

I'd trust a cup/core 200 or 210PT to expand better if we near 350-400 yds, but truly trajectory starts looking loopy at those ranges w/those loads.

That said, MOST all game I have shot has been under 300, so I do see the 338 Fed as a viable round. Best all around 33? Perhaps not.

Bullet test are interesting when it comes to what happens on wood vs. game.

Case in point - 243 Ruger #1, 20" RSI, 70 TNT 3400 (clocked from my rifle) - doe neck shot at 42 yds (yes my bud lasered it for the heck of it) - deer's neck just about torn in half.

Another time I fired a 6TCU - same bullet - runs about 3100-3200 mv, into a hardwood sapling - likely oak - it blew completely thru splintering up the backside - I was amazed it made it thru.

SO, the above posters point as to wood vs. game and how it relates is relative. Wood IIRC can close up a tip i.e. the HP on that TNT I was using....results might be inconsistent.

I'd rather test on say milk jugs w/water as a consistent media...not that it simulates meat/hide/bone...but it is a constant media..in liquid form

I think Barnes in the past had had 'flukes' and one DOES want to know what exact bullet and date/manufacture, as the Barnes have been a 'work in progress' and older first gen bullets I believe had many more of those 'flukes' - whether design and/or copper hardness.

One would want to test several bullets of recent mfg. in a consistent media like perhaps ballistic gel to get a better sampling and draw results that were day in and out, more consistent.

That said, I wonder how many animals have died over time, by bullets that some might consider 'failing a bullet test?'

Indeed, you might add, died and recovered to that question.

All very interesting and why I thought it would be helpful to know what a cartridge like the 338 Fed would do to game at longer distances. I would still love to know from those that have real world experience. If the TSX or TTSX won't expand on an elk at 300 and something yards, but a cup and core will handle the close ups fine, then it wouldn't make much sense to load the TSX in that cartridge, unless I am missing something.

Problem with the 210 Partition is has a relatively poor BC and it starts to matter at those ranges. A 210 would be ~1850 FPS while a 185 would be over 2000 FPS. I can't speak from experience, but I'd trust the 185 more. And the trajectory is indeed better as you mentioned. The 185 has a good BC for its weight and the hole in the tip is pretty large. Barnes told me it would open easily down to 1800 FPS.

That is good info to have, PRM. I agree with you on the 210 with the Fed. The starting velocity with that bullet doesn't leave you much to work with if the published velocities hold true in individual weapons.

I understand the Fed isn't a long range round, but a working knowledge of this round is largely un-tested. Veteran experience with the round at it's limits would be so helpful for those who wish to know it's limits while working up a load. Some may only get the occasional shot at a wapiti and may want to come with the odds in their favor when they get the chance.

Of course there is the age old adage, put a bullet where it belongs....

A couple of thoughts:



This .338 XFB (a bullet which opens very well at 200-300 yards), didn't fare very well when fired from a 340 Weatherby into a moose at 535 yards. (Actually, you might suggest that it fared very well as it could be loaded and fired again. )



And this 225 XFB fired from a 358 Winchester at between 200-300 yards might have been improved upon with the use of a 200 grain of similar construction.

Personally, I don't trust the calculated speeds of any of the bullets, and especially the monos when it comes to longer distances. In my opinion, about the only way I want to be shooting them at live targets is if I know whether the bullet has a reasonable chance of opening way out yonder. Simply put, copper is harder and tougher than lead and thin gilding metal jackets. John Nosler had a remarkably good, if simple idea when he came up with it many moons ago. It still is a standard worth pursuing IMO.

PRM - I'd agree if it were apples to apples....I did alot of comparison of bullets from 185 thru 210s and MY research indicated the 200 grain bullets i.e. Federal are the all around best blend of speed/energy and drop at long range, the 185 in a mono is not what I'd want at 1800 impact.

I think the word 'open up' or 'expand' is relative....when looking at my 243/85 TSX kill, mv 3100, range 240 yds, look at the expansion (https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...ger_1_International_Who_has_#Post3091822),

I feel that 2200 is a good 'threshold' for TSX/TTSX bullets. I just do not believe a Barnes rifle bullet on average will expand enough to MY liking at 1,800.

Klik - what I do know is the older Barnes bullets are perhaps inferior in consistency and/or proper hardness/softness, etc. as IIRC those were older gen bullets. Agreed, copper is harder so it's a whole other ball of wax.

The 338 Fed is on the border w/capacity to drive 210s at a good clip for longer shots. Some get 2500 or below, others 2600...my 338/06 drove 215s at 2790 fwiw.

Factory vs. handload (powder choice), bbl length, etc. etc. matter. In the 338 Fed, compare on the http://www.federalpremium.com/products/compare/rifle_compare.aspx

P338FB 338 Federal 210 Nosler� Partition� Vital-Shok� Remove
P338FC 338 Federal 185 Barnes� Triple-Shock� X Bullet� Vital-Shok� Remove
P338FTT2 338 Federal 200 Trophy Bonded� Tip Vital-Shok� Remove
338FJ 338 Federal 200 Soft Point Power-Shok� Remove


Ballistics Comparisons:
Velocity in Feet per Second
Load No Caliber Muzzle 100 Y 200 Y 300 Y 400 Y 500 Y
P338FB 338 Federal 2630 2412 2204 2007 1820 1648
P338FC 338 Federal 2750 2497 2257 2030 1818 1623
P338FTT2 338 Federal 2630 2431 2241 2060 1887 1725
338FJ 338 Federal 2700 2484 2278 2082 1895 1721

Energy in Foot Pounds

P338FB 338 Federal 3225 2712 2266 1878 1545 1266
P338FC 338 Federal 3106 2560 2092 1693 1357 1082
P338FTT2 338 Federal 3071 2625 2231 1884 1581 1321
338FJ 338 Federal 3237 2740 2304 1924 1594 1315

Drop 200 zero - 50/100/300/400/500
P338FB 338 Federal 1.1 2.3 -9.4 -27.3 -56.3
P338FC 338 Federal 0.9 2.0 -8.9 -26.2 -54.4
P338FTT2 338 Federal 1.0 2.2 -9.2 -26.3 -53.6
338FJ 338 Federal 0.9 2.1 -8.8 -25.5 -52.2

As you can see, they are pretty close in speed and drop at 400 yds, assuming accurate speeds on the street.

Again, to ME a cup/core 200 is likely a good all arounder in the Federal, at these speeds they will not vaporize like a magnum might (esp. on bone at close range) spitting fly weight bullets in Cup Core design.

Again, I'd trust the 210 PT to expand over the Barnes assuming same impact speed. The Federal round nor Barnes bullets are ideal as a combo for long range. I think a Partition and Barnes is better served in the 06 and larger rounds given the speeds the Fed is running w/simple cup/core bullets. 200 grains expanded from a .338 start is a sizable slug IMO. If one throws in Dangerous bears and ranges are close - as in 200 yds or under, the premium bullet can make sense as you might want alot of penetration obviously.

Food for thought...

About 338Fed, without being expert, i used it three seasons now on different games (no elk but good red deers)from 25m (driven hunt) to 200m (mouflons). All kills were one shot with four types of bullets: 185grs TSX, 185 Accubond, 200grs Fusion and my own handload 250grs Sako Powerhead (large free supply of them). Recovered only one bullet: fusion 200grs but after he broke three shoulders, angled a bit and 3 more ribs to rest under skin of the second red deer doe that was hit after passing through the first one. Distance was more than 110m close to 125 yards.

Never will be my 338Lapua Mag but enough for euro/north america game too 300m for a guy who know how to use it. As recoil is on the light side i think more people shoot him well than all 338 magnum.

Big boars, tough mouflons and red deer (stags) were no match for the bullets even at full speed and under adrenaline. Rifle is light T3 hunter. Sights were Aimpoint or 1,5-6x42 S&B.

Just a frog grain of salt.

Have good end of week

Dom