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Joined: Oct 2005
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OP
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Is the .444 Marlin a good caliber for big bear, such as brown, grizzly, etc.?
Thanks in advance for all replies.
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Good for and might work OK for are two different things. With a good 300 grain or better bullet I would categorize the .444 as an OK round, but there are much better choices out there. If one is going to spend the money for a Griz hunt, why not add in another 600-800 for a GOOD big bear gun? If one wants to stick with lever guns, the 45-70 is a far superior choice. For a hunter (not neccesarily the guide) I think that we should not try to re-invent the wheel and go with a CRF bolt gun in 338MAG, 375Mag or something else in that range. All that said, if you are a resident and not having to pay an outrageous guide fee, can hunt until you get close and have a .444 that you like then by all means load up some 330 LBT's or such and have at 'em!
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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Joined: Oct 2005
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OP
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So you'd suggest the .450 Marlin over the .444 Marlin for the big stuff?
(P.S. I don't like the .45-70 Gov't, as you have to handload it to get it's potential, and sometimes I just want to buy the factory load).
(P.P.S. Obviously I'm confining my question to lever guns here)
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Joined: Apr 2003
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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For bears I would look to the ammo from Buffaloe Bore, and Corbon,, thats for bears as in BIG BLACKS, don't know enough about the Grizz or Coasties to say.
"Just another day in Oz!"
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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If you want to stay with factory loads, by all means the .450, but in 45-70 there are, as mentioned, the loads from Buffalo bore and others. Master Guide Ed Stevenson of Wassilla Alaska uses browning (Winchester 1895 clones) model 1895's in various wildcat calibers such as 411 Hawk and some Scovill chamberings, two of his guides that I have met use 45-70's, but these are for getting people out of jams, not general hunting of bears. If you love 'em, use 'em but you will be limited in what shots you can take and I dont think that any of the guides reccomend such a weapon as a primary hunting tool. The 450 Marlin and the hot rodded 45-70 are much more powerful than a .444 is capable of becoming.
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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Campfire Tracker
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I bought my original edition .444 from a friend who carried it in Alaska for bear protection while working as an engineer on sawmills. He never had to fire it, but felt confident. Everyone carried a .45-70 or .444 as they walked through the woods, and one of his co-workers killed very large belligerant black bear at close range with one shot that entered the neck, broke the shoulder and spine, and exited at the backstrap in front of the hip.
Beretta, Merkel, Kreighoff and others offer the .444 in O/U double rifles for stalking wild boar, which run 400 to 500 lbs in Europe, and are more dangerous than most black bears.
The Hornady 265-gr and Speer 270-gr are great bullets. I would like to try the Barnes 300 gr at 2100 fps. That, or one of the hard cast 300 to 325 grain bullets should work. Go to Buffalo Bore's website and read their 3-part article.
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Are you talking hunting them or defense?
I'd say for hunting, a scoped 338 win mag or 375 H&H is good. Hunting can call for longer shots, or precise shots in thick cover and poor lighting. I don't see the quick follow up shots of a lever gun as a fair trade for the most important precise first shot that I'd want to deliver from a scoped accurate bolt gun. I'd also venture to say that the terminal performance of a best quality expanding bullet from a 338 or 375 would be better than a 444.
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444 Not good for bear, it kills bear dead, bears find that very bad.
Ignorance is not confined to uneducated people.
WHO IS JOHN GALT? LIBERTY!
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I prefer a 370 gr .416" bullet at 2300fps, but it's hard to argue with a 300 gr .429" bullet at 2100fps. Get a bit closer to the critter with the 444 , and your talking darn near the same energy.
Got to consider that lever actions have lot's of moving parts, compared to bolt actions.
Also have to find suitable bullets, with a wide meplat for safety in that tubular magazine.
I'd say the cartridge is fine, it's the rifle that may come in question. Or not.
Brian
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Campfire Outfitter
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I have a .444 now, have had several others, and like the rifle (Win 94 Black Shadow) quite a lot. The biggest issue with the .444 is bullet selection. Factory loads are mostly assembled with 240 gr pistol bullets, which is a Very Bad Thing. If you can find Hornady 265's, that's better. My handloads use 270 Speer Gold Dots at 2100 fps. Accurate and easy (?) to shoot. The caribou bull I shot with the load and rifle tipped over and turned upsidedown, so I think it works <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.
I have 300 gr loads running at 2200 fps, as well, and they aren't straining anything. The 320 gr Buffalo Bore hard cast loads run about the same; I cannot imagine a brown bear standing up to good hits with such loads, were the bear in arguing range.
Not a round or rifle I would take on a "bear hunt"; but one I carry readily in "bear country" -- and one in which I obviously feel confidence.
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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MOntana Precision Swaging can produce 350 grain paper patch bullets for the .444, but I don't know if they will stabilize at that length. Would be about an inch long +/- a few thou. 300 grain bullets from the same die run .86" and work fine in a 1:20 twist. All I know so far is they'll go thru a hog shoulder and stop on the off side ham. About 22-23". Harder alloy than dead soft I shoot would likely work better for bear.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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If you could spring for it I'd buy the win 1895 in .405 winchester.
The world ends when you dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. stand it like a man-and give some back..
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As stated above, if you think you are going to shoot an unaware bear from 100 yards, then use a .338 or .375 with a scope.
If you have to stoop and crawl in thick brush, and maybe take the first shot inside 20 yards, I would carry a lever action in .444, .45-70 or .405 Win, unless you have a .375 H&H or 9.3x74R double rifle handy.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Listed under the "Tech Notes" section at Beartoothbullets.com they have some excellent reading about the 444. They have done some very extensive testing with hard cast bullets in both slow and fast twist Marlin rifles. Accuracy is absolutely first rate with all but the 405 gr bullets in either rifle. I think any bear would have a tough time arguing with a 355 gr WLNGC bullet started at better than 2100fps.
If at first you don't succeed, keep on suckin' 'til you do succeed. ~Curly Howard
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Campfire Outfitter
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RLB -- I have one of those -- and it's way too heavy and long for what I use the .444 Win 94 for. To say nothing of too pretty to drag through these woods <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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Campfire Ranger
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I would trust my 45-70 any day for brown bears. I use the 430 gr HC from Buffalo Bore at 2200fps and it shoots 1-1/2" groups at 100 yards. It will for a fact penetrate with anything that has been listed here. I dont see the problem. It is handy, it is powerful and it is accurate. Anything else?
NRA LIFE MEMBER GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS ESPECIALLY THE SNIPERS! "Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself." -Mark Twain
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Campfire Regular
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There are far more powerful 45/70 factory loads out there than 444 loads. PMC makes a nice hot 45/70 load that is very reasonably priced, garret, buffalobore, and grizly ammo are all powerful loads.
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Will a .375 H&H kill a big bear with a 300-gr bullet impacting at 2100 fps 150 yards from the muzzle? You betcha.
How about 2000 fps? You betcha.
A 300-gr bullet from a .444 at 2000 fps? I betcha.
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THe main problem isn't weight and velosity, its bullet constuction. The 300gr 375 has a SD of .305 for the nosler partition, the 300gr Hornady XTP has a SD of .232, so the 375 is likely to penetrate better. Add to that the fact that the 375 was designed for deep penetration in havey game at magnum velosities and the fact that the 300gr XTP was designed for pistol velosities, just like all other 429 cal bullets with the possible exception of the 265gr hornady designed for the 444. Even then the manufacturer doesn't recomend it for big bears, its just not designed to penetrat that heavy of game. The average use of the 444 os deer/blackbear and unfortunately this isn't a situation of one size fits all.
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SD changes at the moment of impact, and not as relevant as people believe for expanding bullets. It is relevant for solid bullets, which is where it was first used as a datum of comparison for African bullets.
My .444 with a 300-gr Hornady XTP will outpenetrate my .30-06 firing any premium 180-gr bullet into the same medium. The .30 caliber bullets are traveling much faster, and both the .444 and .30-06 have the same kinetic energy. The .444 has more momentum.
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