Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Question: what type of shells to use in an old Damascus Twist barrel

Hopkins and Allan Damascus twist 12 Ga, friend wants to shoot it, and brought out some fresh Federal 3 1/4/-1 1/4 oz loads in 12ga. I talked him into not firing the shotgun till I could ask some questions on the board to see if it would be safe to shoot them. I did not think that it would be safe, but better safe than sorry.

I would appreciate all imput.

thanks in advance

Keith

You'll probably get both sides of the argument on this. Some will say it's perfectly safe to shoot and others will say it is unsafe with any ammo.

I'll opine that those 3�-1� loads are probably way too much for a Damascus barrel, but that light target loads might be okay. Or not. Unfortunately, the shooter will never know what the next trigger pull will do. My all-time best line on this subject:

The interval between trigger and tragedy is too short to change your mind.

It's all about the pressure in modern shells, even trap loads can generate high pressure, they don't feel as strong because they are moving a lighter load and possibly slower than heavy field loads. The powder in them burns fast and hard for a shorter distance down the barrel. Modern 2 3/4" shells can hit 11,000psi

A quality damascuss barrel in good condition can handle modern shells. In England you can send you old shotguns to a proof house and have them approved for smokeless powder shells. The smokeless powder shells made for them run from 6,000psi to about 8,000psi and max loads are around 1 1/16oz.

Older damascuss barrels that haven't been cleaned properly after using blackpowder can be sevierly pitted or have rust seep into any faults in the damascuss weld.

Be sure and check the chamber length also, many old damascuss shotguns have short chambers, my LC Smith has short chambers.

Ballistic Products has lots of info for loading shells for older shotguns. As mentioned RST has low pressure shells, and I think Kent has their Game Bore line for older doubles.

It's always a crap shoot firing old guns as you never know how it has been cared for in the past. Even bright shiny bores can be decieving as someone might had the pits honed out of the barrels making the steel in them even thinner. In Europe if that kind of work is done the shotguns are usualy reproofed.

First better look at the chamber, some were 2 inches or 2,5 maximum. Then have good gunsmith, who know really well it's job, look about the locking.

Then look at the muzzles. Generaly these old shotguns have very tight choke that were right with BP powder and fiber wad with relatively light weight loads. These muzzles don't stand very long the pressure of heavy loads with plastic wads.

Even if some of the damascus barrel can stand smokeless powder, better stay in the low pressure light loads and avoid definitively the 3 and 3,5 cartridges. And never shoot steel inside. If they stand it they will not last long.

In Europe we have expensive british ammo from Eley or under Purdey name or french one specialy made for 65mm hull at very low pressure that can go in these barrels. May be Gamebore makes some too. In USA i don't know. But as the saying goes: better safe than sorry!

Dom

Do him a favor by buying it, and hanging it on the wall.

keith-
If you're really serious about shooting the old gun, seek out the series of articles in Double Gun Journal by Sherman Bell, titled "Finding out for Myself". These appeared about a decade ago, and show some results of independent thinking about old guns, coupled with working with persons knowledgeable about pressure testing.

There is a long, rambling, disjointed discourse on the subject on the shotgunworld.com forum. It's got some nuggets that might be worth considering if you can find them: Black or Nitro Powders for Damascus.

RST and similar shotshells are a good choice. They are low pressure and come in shorter than usual lengths to accommodate shorter chambers.

Light loads (low shot weight, low velocity) are recommended mostly for their low recoil; the stock wood on the old guns can be brittle. Low pressure loads decrease the strain on the barrels and action; it's possible the action on this gun is iron, not steel.

It may be well if you can find a gunsmith who knows what he's about to examine the gun for mechanical problems. If you can find one who knows about the Bell articles mentioned above, or who has worked with damascus barrels previously, that would be perhaps best.

--Bob

Sub-gauge inserts would seem to be the safest bet in a damascus barrelled gun, or am I missing something?

My friend an smith told me years about the gun I had .It was a old dubble barrel with these barrels Damascus .Low brass shells with light loads never hurt the gun or black powder loads are right If the loads were manfactored .Never had a problem with this advice

Many factory shells, even low brass and "target loads", can produce higher pressure than should be fired in damascus barrels. Shells are not commonly rated as to pressure, only velocity, and even lower velocity shells can produce high pressure.

The company referenced in an earlier post, RST Ltd., specializes in low-pressure shotshells for short chambered guns. They are the first people I would contact.

Probably no gunsmith will tell you it is safe to fire this or that damascus-barreled gun. Its a liability issue. Get ahold of RST. They will provide guidance.

Many times it is not the barrel that is the limiting factor on older shotguns, but the action. Modern high-pressure shells will cause the lockup to loosen and "stretch" causing a condition known as "off face" (a gap between baarrel and breech). Many older guns are off face because of firing high pressure shells, or shells that are too long for the chamber. These can be repaired but the condition will quickly resurface with continued use of high pressure shells.

Over the years several pictures of lown twist barrels have
been shown. One day it dawned on me that it was always the same
picture with the side blown out about where your fingers would
be. This argument will never be solved as fact and opinion are
mixed. The argument against 150 year old welds should be considered.

Big Redhead and Bullshooter hit it on the nut. Height of the brass has nothing to do with the pressure level the shells are loaded to.As stated shells can be loaded to the 6-8 k pressure range for dammascus use.That Double Gun Journal article by Sherman Bell was one of the best I've ever read. Old guns are neat but they too get "tired" have it examined by a QUALIFIED gunsmith is the first thing before firing. Magnum Man

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