Home Forums Lever Action Central Cowboy Levers Which is the stronger action and why?

Which is the stronger of the two actions? The Winchester 1886, or the Marlin 1895. Seems I keep hearing people when talking about building custom levers, suggesting to use the Winchester 1886, curous and was just wondering why?

Phil

I have a Winchester 1886 Takedown in 45/70 (Miroku '99), a Marlin 1895G in 45/70, and a Marlin 1895 Cow Boy in 45/70. Both the Win '86 and Marlin 1895 are really strong actions, and should be able to handle whatever you'd want to do.

Most of the Win 1886's available cost twice as much as the Marlins, and you don't see as many, so I guess if you're building a custom, there might be a bit more snob appeal with the Winchester. There probably are a lot more commercial parts available for the Marlins, however, like Wild West triggers and extractors which could make a Marlin project more economical to do.

I'd be quite pleased and proud to have either.

IMO the 86 locks up stronger than the 95. It will also handle longer cartridges.

I concur. The 86 is a lot stronger action with their particular lock up. And I'm a Marlin Guy. And they do have a longer actions so is a better way to go for custome stuff. But for the price Marlin is tough to beat and is plenty strong.

Hmmm...

I'm not sure.

The '86 is a great action, and will take longer cartridges.

But, a '95 can and does take the .450 Marlin, which is certainly hotter than anything the '86 ever did.

Personally, I'd take the '86 if I wanted a longer round than the '95 can handle; otherwise, it'd be a '95, 'cause I can get them easily, and parts for them cheaply, and I wouldn't feel bad about butchering up a new Marlin 1895 the way that I would about messing with a Winchester 1886.

YMMV...

VA I think the '86 can handle the 50 express, 50 Alaskan etc. You can get the Japaneese Winny 86's for project guns a fair bit cheaper but I don't expect it's nearly as much fun as having the real deal. Personally I'd like to have an 1895 Winchester redone in 9.3 x 62 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now THAT is an idea...

I wish it were mine but is been done. Have you ever seen the Z-hat website? This guy makes hot rod 1895's that shoot cartridges based on the '06. The 375 Hawk is mighty sweet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I contacted him about building a 9.3x62 on an 1895 Browning copy. The brownings didn't come with all the BS rebounding hammers and safeties like the Japanese repro Winnies did. He had done it before and his prices are reasonable for top quality work. Then you would have a reliable lever gun chambered in a caliber that would be legal in most african countries for DG.

www.Z-HAT.COM

You, sir, are a very bad influence... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Right back at ya friend. Those #1 photos had me thinking bad thoughts fer my wallet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

First off, there is no Marlin 1895 action. Every big bore Marlin uses the same action as the rest of Marlins centralfire line. They cn call it a 95, but its really a 336.
the 336 is rated at some 43.000psi. with todays steels.
The Winchester 1886 action was designed at a time when the 45-70 was a 2.8" cartridge. In those days, cartridges were big to jam in as much black as possible.
The 50 Alaskan is not based on the old 2.4" cartridge cases that the three big 50s originally were, an as such, the extra capacity of the 86 is moot.
In the days of the .450 AI, .450 Alaskan, 45-90 smokeless, boys just grabbed a fistful of IMR smokeless an loaded em up to 40,000 psi. It was no big trick to push a 400grain pill to 2,000fps, with enuf recoil to boot.
In those days Marlin didn't make any big bores, so it was Winchester or punt. Folks knew that those nickel steel 86s could handle these loads, the old Marlins were a question mark.
Today, its all changed.
Its the Marin 336 that is plentiful, affordable compared to the Winchesters, an strong enuf for the most recoil insensitive types.
Strength? Toss em both in the air an catch the one that falls first.
Good luck n good shootin.

Here's my 411 Hawk that Fred (Z-Hat) built for me a few years ago. It is a hoss.

That is MIGHTY nice! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I bet it recoils just a titch. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Recoil is stiff, but manageable with practice.

Yours certainly has the African flair. Looks like a gem. I'll take its baby sister in 9.3x62. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Fred does good work at reasonable price. You won't go wrong with him doing the work.

I don't know which is actually "strongest" but think about reloading manuals. My old Lyman manual has three levels of 45-70. One is for weak Springfields, etc. The next is for original 1886 Winchesters. The final level is for the Ruger #1 and Marlin 1895's. Before the advent of the Jap '86s, the Winchesters were a lot heavier than the 336-based Marlins. This with the exception of a few 1886 takedowns. And yet, the 1895 would take a whole different level of handloads. My best guess is that the 336-based '95 is the stronger of the two, on this basis.

The original 1895 Marlins were a different gun. I have owned both the original and the 336 45-70, as well as the original 1886 Winchester and shot them all quite a bit. I think the original '95 was stronger than the original '86. I liked the '86 better, as I think it was a better, if not stronger, gun. The '86 has the classic Winchester look to it also. I shot a 1000 lb. cow with my '86 in 45-70 (it was a converted .40-82), and she dropped in her tracks.

Out of them all, IMO the 336 45-70, in the "Cowboy" configeration, is the best gun. Strongest of them all too.

The Marlins still aren't chambered in high pressure cartridges like the 1895 Winchester (30-06, 270 Win) or the BLR or S99's. Not that the Marlins aren't strong, I bet they would be stronger than the '94 Winchester, but the new replica 92's are holding up under 454 Casull rounds. Makes you wonder...

The comparison was the '95 Marlin vs. the '86 Winchester. The '95 Winchester is a completely different animal.

Close...I had one built up in .35 Whelen which is Yankee for 9.3x62. Just figured something as American as a 95 ought to have a cartridge as Ameican as the Whelen.

Sounds great! How does it work? I never thought of it that way but that's a really good point! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The 336 will handle pressures much higher than 43,000 psi. You could fire 30-06 or 308 if you could chamber the cartridge.


.

Folks...
Strength of action is directly related to strength of the steels used. Keep in mind that when a manufacturer lists the strength of a gun, its with the concept of 100% safety margin. This is done, cuz if you get a bore obstruction, a burst case, or some other calamity, the gun will break, but won't turn into a grenade.
Winchester 1886s have at least two levels of strength. The standard level is 28,000 psi. This makes for a very effective cartridge, but it aint no Marlin. These guns r rare, valuable, an expensive, since they all were made a'fore 1896, so thet really shouldnt be part of this discussn. 1886s that are original must be marked with the nickel steel moniker to be able to withstand 40,000psi., an even these are gettin to the point of ridiculously expensive. This leaves us with the USRAC repros-they use exellent steels an can withstand 40,000-but the factory will never admit it, they determine their usefulness at the old, 28,000 psi level.
Confused yet?
Marlins new 1895 is as said, baisically a 336. Its a solid, 40,000psi gun-but this is just their new, post 1972 version. Once again, originals are expensive to the point of being prohibitive, an should never, ever be subject to modern pressures, period.
Winchesters and Marlins made post 1972, in exellent condition, without headspace issues, using brass fired only a few times max., without some stunts like ignoring OAL, jamming bullets into rifling can digest 40,000 psi with enuff safety to make it plausible to do so. Both actions are, in essence pretty equal given the above conditions.
Good luck n good shootin

A search of the literature indicates that the safe operating pressure of the modern Marlin 1895 45-70 Gov't and Marlin 1895 450 Marlin is 40,000 CUP (approx. 42,732 PSI) and 43,500 PSI, respectively, and the modern Winchester 1886 45-70 is 50,000 CUP (approx. 57,900 PSI). The difference in the Marlins in 45-70 and 450 is due to the smaller cross sectional area interfacing the bolt and less case capacity in the 450 Marlin than the 45-70. The inherent limitation of the Marlin 1895 is the lack of meat where the barrel is matched to the receiver and to a lesser extent the asymmetric locking lug. The Winchester 1886 has strong dual, symmetric locking lugs and significantly more meat in the barrel/receiver area.

The 1886 has historically been loaded to 40,000psi from the factory. The old WHV loading all met 40,000 with the exeptn of the 45-70 express load, which is available from Win Am today-300gr. Nosler load duplicates that number.
Nobody ever has surpassed 40,000 an kept their gun in any kind of workin order.
Some folks say the Win 71 is stronger than either the parent 86 or the Marlin-well, look around an see what happens to these valuable classics when their hotrodded.
Prudent types will note that traditional leverguns do anything they need to do just fine at 40,000. This was the limit determined by the factory. Stickin within it will allow you have a good service life from your gun.
Good luck n good shootin

Jackfish is correct. The Browning/Winchester Miruko 1886s are 50,000CUP (57,900PSI) making them a level Four arm. Don't try that in your Marlin boys and girls!

Not long ago, a friend asked me to do up a handload for his Marlin 95. The load, was a max load in my 1886 custom rifle.
I had been 'educated' that the Marlin was as strong, or maybe stronger, by some of the arguements presented in this thread. That changed in a hurry, when his first shot froze the rifle. It openned later with a block of wood through the lever thankfully, and turned out to be Ok.
My 1886 has an original Winchester reciever, and a Douglas premium barrel. I imagine that the new Browning/Winchesters are at least as strong as mine.

Do you know that your loads ar at or less than 40,000psi? Were you runnin correct OAL? Max OAL for stock Marlins is 2.550", runnin longer cartridges can cause all kinda problems. The Winchester action accomidates the old 2.80" OAL used back in the black powder days.
Lots more variables here.
Goin out on a guess, I'd say yer loads are way over 40,000. Just cuz the 86 action does not seize up or jam does not mean yer in safe territory.
40,000 psi will get you a 350gr. jacketed at around 2,000fps. A quality 400gr. drops this by 50-75fps. I'm probably juss gettin old, but I think this'll do right fine on anything around, so who needs more?

I also agree, and here is a good read by a gent who also concurs.

http://leverguns.com/articles/paco/4570_leverguns.htm

For those that want the bottom line, the new Winchester/Miruku 1886s are 50,000psi which puts them at the top of the heap in strength. Check out the Lever Four loads!

It seems that the paco fan club is alive and well. I guess if paco says he can turn a turtle into an ICBM, then his following will repeat it everywhere.
The model 71, so quoted as a high intensity number, was right there in the 40,000 psi range.
The miroku guns are fine specimens, however no one besides paco recommends jacking them up to 50,000psi. Traditionally, that level of loading is reserved for the ruger an browning single shots. The factory itself recommends only standard pressure ammunition, and responsible handloaders have found that 40,000psi loads operate admirably well in them.
The same can be said for Marlins new 1895.
Just because some one can load up a 45-70 to unheard of pressures, and then live to talk about it does not mean that his gun has a destruction strength of 100,000psi. What it does mean is that he is cutting into the safety margin of his gun, all for 100-150fps more.
The truly ridiculous aspect of all this is that it won't turn the 45-70 into a flat shooting number. In fact, 100 more fps will mean nothing in the real world except headspace issues, lockup problems, and shorter service life for the gun unfortunate enough to be so abused.
When loaded responsibly, levergun loads for both the nickel steel 1886s and the new 1895 Marlins are equal. This equates to a similar strength and safety threshold.

doing an orig 86 circa 1920 in 50 ak. will post pics ,loads,etc on completion

.....Better to listen to such clear reasoned and spoken ,advice as you read here by Mak...+1 for the olhippie.

Once you run pressures which exceed the elastic limit of the metal components, they begin to suffer fatigue. They may not fracture the first time you do that, or the 2nd or the 100th, but eventually the strength of the metal will degrade to the point at which it will suffer a catastrophic failure.

When you are bending a coat hanger until it reaches that point, you know that the next bend will break it.

When you run loads at 10,000 PSI over specification, you will find out without any warning.

I ran into a 1895 TD in 405 win on the way home from camp today. Nearly fell over when I looked at the price tag!

I believe when you are talking of pushing an action so far, you are pushing the wrong type of action, or are using the rifle for the wrong pursuit. If you are doing this for a dangerous game situation, the reliability issues are greater than FPS. Most animals will not notice a 100 or even 200 fps with a well placed, or not so well placed shot. That is why I have never considered the AI for my 348, I want it to feed like a greasy sausage and go bang when I want it to.

The new 95 Winchester are probably stronger than the old ones..The new 95s handle pressures of the .270 Win and 30-06 and that is 55,000 PSI or even 60,000 PSI..An 86 certainly isn't recommended for those pressures...Also the original 95s came in 30-06 or 30-03 both..

Well, we all have are quirks but to me an 1895 redone should become a 35 whelen. Not beacuse its a better round but beacuse its an american round and in winchester its just, for sentimental reasons , the way to go...tj3006