Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Roosevelt and the 405

Stetson,

No I am just AC_of_AR. Jorge seems to have gotten himself into an argument with another new poster who's handle starts with "O". Strange how you guys don't get along with newbies, unless they kiss you cry baby arses.

AC

Very interesting reading about the .405 win and Roosevelt. My readings on Roosevelt are not as strong or informed as others, but I do remember several references by him on his felt recoil and disliking for heavy kicking rifles. Not denying his '95 win was a kicker. I am sure it was what he was confident with all those many years ago and was happy with the quick follow up shots. I do believe his son Kermit used the .405 as much if not more than Teddy. There is also reference by Mr Rooservelt in "African game Trails" to his well liked .500-450 Holland double... People depended on rifles that today we wouldnot even consider. Who now would chose a Mannlicher bolt action 6.5x54 for Elephant? Many East African Elephant were taken with just such a cartridge many years ago.

I have been to Sth Africa several times, not as a hunter, but on the wildlife captures. I have also been with hunters on a few private reserves and with guides and park rangers. For dangerous game the .458s, .375 H&H's seem to be the most numerous amongst Sth African "locals". There are more powerful cartridges out there, but these have held their popularity amongst locals as in the right hands they did the task and ammunition is readily available across the country. I asked an Africaaner guide why he didn`t have one of the modern .416s or the bigger .500's. He said - "I can buy cartridges for my .375 and .458win in near any town, anywhere. I am comfortable with these rifles in placing the shot where required and following up if needed. If you are not comfortable with your rifle you are going to go down!" He made sense.

I have spent time with the armourer at the Natal Parks Board. A very interesting fellow. I asked him which was their prefered lion gun for staff. He said - "Winchester or Remington 12g pump!" [I was more than a little surprised] When Zulu staff were armed with big caliber bolt actions and semi auto FN SLR's, they often had no confidence during a charge and got messed up [polite word for mauled]... His answer was - they were better with the 12g pump, getting shots onto target and yes, some still got messed up. Boils down to confidence again... Not that I would want to be in their situation!

The '95 Winchester had a bad reputation for being a kicker in .405. Me not being a dangerous game hunter, a left hander and slow with bolt actions, even on a left handed action. For general hunting and self protection - A modern '95 with better stock design, shooting Woodleigh projectiles would be a fun handy rifle to have at hand. [So too would a Double rifle in an original British cartridge if I knew I was going to meet a charging Elephant, Rhino or Buffalo.]

Back in Roosevelts day, the mindset was different and they didn`t have the cartridges and rifles that developed rapidly post WWll and now. The Game hasn`t changed, the tools at hand have. If you brought Mr Roosevelt into the 21st century, he may well have still chosen his .405... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

cheers,

Cam...

ps; hi ya Ranch and Sharps shooter

Its an interesting angle to speculate what TR might carry today. Since Winchester is no longer going to be a US Co. I rather doubt he would choose something not made in the US for his "PR" gun. Maybe a Weatherby. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> For his real hunting rifle I'd wager on a double barrel H&H.

Stetson,



Who says Winchester will no longer be a US company? The name was licensed to USRAC, but that licensing agreement is about to expire. USRAC has not been a US company, it is part of the Herstal group (you know FN and all that). Olin Corporation, a US company, owns the Winchester name, and it will be their decision whether or not the Winchester name goes to an American firm, foreign firm, or into obscelence. To my knowledge that decision has not been made, or at least not been made public as of yet.

TR used a 405 because it was the WSM/USAM of it's day (in the good ol' US of A anyway). I would wager that if he were hunting nowadays he would use one of the modern "wonder cartridges", and not an old fashioned 405.

AC

Cam the 405 is an interesting, and underrated cartridge. It was probably available to the general shooting public about 30 years . Due to its rim it doesn't lend itself well to the bolt actions, Winchester did make a few of its doubles for it , but were very pricey.
The model 95 is a rather light rifle for a cartridge that generates as much horsepower as the 405, and doesn't lend itself well to the scope sight so many folks think they need.
The NO1 does well with a scope, but doesn't offer the "quick" second shot to those not experienced with it.
Most of the articles in the magazines tend to run something on the order of shoot a box or so of factory rounds at paper, then if reloading happens, pass the 41 mag pistol bullets please my shoulder hurts. If the author did take the anemic round and its stubby 300 gr bullet hunting although its woofully inadequate for the task at hand still seem to come up with pictures of dead animals , supposedly shot with said poor cartridges.
I like the 405 and the 95, but if TR were around today and just discovering it I don't know how he would of taken to it.

Ranch,

I used to be on another forum, and the guys over there, although nice guys, thought that if it wasn't at least a 338 mag, it would either bounce off an elk, or else needlessly wound them. Good grief! I didn't think that elk had a tungsten carbide shoulder blade. A moose is probably half as big again, and I have either shot or seen moose shot very effectively with a 30-30, a 32 Spl., a 300 Savage, a 308, a 30-06, a 303 Brit, and on up. They all died pretty quickly. One of my uncles probably shot more moose than I will ever in 2 lifetimes, and he always used a 30-30 with 150 grain Pneu's.

So I agree with you about the 405 not being too light for a lot of game that it kills. What weight of 41 Mag bullets do you use for plinking with your 405? Still haven't ordered mine, but I am sure leaning that way in a big way. I'll probably topple over this week, as long as we don't get the liberals back in power. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Ranch,

I didn`t know you had a '95win in .405 till I stumbled onto this topic in the forum. Lucky you, I would love one... I have handled a few '95, tho not in .405 and do understand the flaws. A better butstock would be my 1st improvement - straighter and thicker with more surface area meeting my shoulder. A good recoil pad too. possibly a slightly heavier barrel too, maybe a 1/2 Octagonal. Open sights are fine by me, [express would be a nice touch]. This is what the rifle was intended and facing something that was a little cranky with me being on his/her turf, fast shooting and open sights are for me. One thing I noticed in Africa is that the guides and park rangers I met and are now friends, retired and working none carried a scoped rifle with dangerous game!

Ken Roberts - "Pet Loads" has a good section on the .405 and mentions the 41magnum projies in detail.

-----

"Its an interesting angle to speculate what TR might carry today. Since Winchester is no longer going to be a US Co. I rather doubt he would choose something not made in the US for his "PR" gun" -
My original comment was semi tongue in cheek. Who knows, if he was around, maybe Winchester would never have gone off shore, the company would be smaller and building a quality US product, instead of chasing the mass international market - may be <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />... I do think on readings, he solidly believed in his '95 .405 and that it held a spot greater than a PR gun. I could be wrong, tho it did do wonders for Winchesters name. Same can be said of his early use with the '76 Winchester. There were supposedly better cartridges and rifles during the times he hunted, however in both cases - He used what he enjoyed and was comfortable with in the field at the time and he produced the goods.

There are many Sth African, East African and Rhodesians here in my state of Western Australia [approx 100 000]. I have spent many hours talking Africa with now retired hunters and game wardens. One common observation can be made - It isn`t always the biggest rifle that performs the best. It is the rifle that you are comfortable and most competent with. These guys lived and breathed wildlife and their environment. It was their lively hood and at times their life saver. They knew anatomy and animal behaviour well in plying their trade. This is why they succeeded with firearms that many today would say were inadequate or grossely so! I notice it is still often the case with current Africans' plying their trade.

Interesting stuff...

Cam...

No question TR was a staunch Winchester fan. After reading his books there is little doubt that his '76 was special to him. He wrote poor things about the '95 in several places indicating that it was prone to jamming. I dont think he was that fond of the '95. Most of us just remember the big medecine comment which clearly did wonders for Winchester. He was however very fond of the english gun he took to Africa or so I would gather as he shot it most leaving the '95 to Kermit. Fun stuff to speculate about either way.

"he solidly believed in his '95 .405 and that it held a spot greater than a PR gun. I could be wrong, tho it did do wonders for Winchesters name"

I meant it in that if he wasn`t confident in the rifle and cartridge, which he appeared to be, I doubt he would have stood infront of dangerous game with a "PR" gun...

Some may be surprised at the large number of '76 Winchesters which made their way to Africa and India...

Certainly he had faith in the '95 and the 405. That much is not subject to interpretation IMO. I have just always wondered if the '95 was taken for political purposes. He was without question a politician. Many '76's made it not only to Africa but to India as well. I had a chance a few years back to buy a factory engraved '76 that had seen its life in Africa with a 5 leaf express sight. It was a wee bit out of my price range. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Stetson, that '76 sounds nice, I can imagine the price being somewhat spendy... I passed on a few '76s that turned up here from Africa and India. Not quite as nice as the one you describe. There was a firearm dealer here in my city - Perth back in the '70s and early 80's, bringing them in, particulalry from Indian estates. I remember many standard grade Winchesters from India painted with army green paint and dipped in old grease. So they needed some cleaning! My mistake was not buying one as they weren`t very expensive at the time. Now a good 76 is beyond my reach. Tho there is a repro comming out of germany/Italy soon.

Cam...

Most '76's are beyond my reach today. At the time that '76 was around 5k. I really regret not snatching it up. The engraving was pretty worn. The biggest one that got away from me was actually a '73 from ozz. It was documented from a big Australian prison and had papers. Sorry I can't remember the name at the moment. It was a peach and the price was right but I was slow. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

The Oz Win '73 may have been a "Pentridge Jail" rifle. There was one available last year, POA. A mate of mine has a Win '92 44-40 Pentridge Jail carbine. Back in the early/mid 80's he paid AU$450 for it. Be worth some $$$ now, same for the '73...

Yes that was it. Pentridge. I did a little research back then and it sounded like you ozzies have some interesting history.

I have yet to try and load a pistol bullet for my rifle, guess I just don't see the point. I have tried alot of cast bullets for reduced plinking loads, so far the only one that has shown any real promise was one cast from an NEI mold that looks like the original Ideal bullet, but it weigh 325 and carries a gas check.
Buffalo arms has a deal with Lyman to tool up the original mold again, mine name has been in the backorder list since last July, hopefully one of these days they get er done.
I have gradually learned to just chuckle when I read all the advise about the serious amount of horsepower it takes to kill elk. Everytime I read about needing 338+ I think back fondly to a younger time when my trusty 243 layed them pretty low.
The 2 bulls I've shot with the 405 haven't died any faster than any of the others shot with other cartridges. Still wanting to get a deer and antelope with it, but getting time to hunt them is really conflicting with cow stuff the last few years.

After getting this discussion on the .405 started I got interested in driving my Shiloh 40-70ss toward the .405 power level. Rumor has it that the Shiloh is capable of pressure in the Ruger #1 range. I don't know that I'll run the pressures that high but I have had a few interesting results.

The first problem was bullet diameters. My Shiloh is .408 and jacketed bullets in that size are rare. Hawk sells .408 300gr semi-spitzers and I bought 150. They are priced like the Barnes or Woodeigh's. I have been loading them in shortened .405 Horandy cases and accuracy has been reasonable with velocities in the 1850fps range. While I was waiting on the .408 Hawk bullets to arrive, it was suggested by Hubert that I might be able to load the .411 405 Winchester bullets if I was careful with chamber dimensions and room for the case to release the bullet. No go with the heavy 405 Winchester Hornady cases, but I have a large number of 30-40 Krag cases that have been stretched to 40-70ss. As luck would have it, when loaded in the Krag brass the .411's have about .002" to release the bullet. To make a long story short the 300gr Hornady SP's and FP's shoot very well out of the Krag brass with IMR-3031. Velocties are around 1850fps so far. I am slowly working up the pressure looking for problems. I believe that 2000fps is going to be safe in this rifle with 300gr. bullets.

The upshot is that even though the 405 Winchester (40-70ss in my case) is a bit light for dangerous African game, it looks like I can get my Sharps in the power range of succesfully taking plains game and elk sized animals consistently to 250 to 300yds with the iron sights I am used to.

I have to say that it is kind of gratifying shooting a round that T. Roosevelt would have found comfortable. This October I might be able to kill an elk with the 300's in my 40-70ss. I will find that very interesting.

Sharps Shooter if you take alook at the data on Hogdons page, the pressures they're getting there were suprisingly (to me anyway) low. More on the order of 30-30 or 3040. That Hornady bullet at the velocity your getting in the blown out 30-40 cases might do a lot better job of holding together than they do when romped up to the 2300 fps level .
I haven't chrono'ld this load but 35 grs of h4895 with the 300 gr fp is a real sizzler for accuracy in my 95.

Ranch, thanks for the tip on the H4895. I have tended to stay with 3031 becasue the loading density is high. RL-7 and H4198 leave lots of air space, but the H4198 has produced some promising groups at lower velocities. I'll pick up some H4895 and run a series on it.

I have also been running some 370gr paper patch bullets with 40grs of IMR-3031 and have had some interesting results. I had six rounds go into 1 1/4" with two others that opened up the group to about 2 1/2". The velocity should have been near 1650fps. That would be a stout hunting load with the 30-1 bullets. When they hit the berm the bullets turn inside out in a cup shape with the bullet base in the center and about an inch in diameter. Strange deal.

I have to say that working up this rifle has been a great deal of fun.

Take care,
SS

Sharps good luck with that rifle. I've never been talented enough to paper patch bullets, shoot I never did get the hang of rollin Bull Durham <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
5744 is another powder I've got decent results with when using lead bullets.

I purchased a Winchester model 1885 Traditional Hunter in .405 win last year. My state made specific single shot rifles with bore .38 or larger, legal during the primative weapon deer season. I shot a 210 lb. 8 pt and two does with it. It really did a number on the whitetails. My normal deer rifle is a .338 win. I am planning a 14 day plains game safari to RSA in May of 07'. I will primarily shoot the .338 with 225 grain trophy bond and I will also have my 30-06 with 180 grain TBs. I really want to take the .405 as a 3rd gun. I liked hunting with it so much that I uesd it most to the whitetail season.