Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Can someone please explain to me...

why every "this-or-that" choice type thread concerning muzzleloaders has to devolve into a pissing contest over "yours ain't traditional enough" and "in-lines are fine/better, so there ... NYAAHH!"?

Seriously...

If it loads in the front, and you have to manually prime it, IT'S A FREAKIN' MUZZLELOADER!!

Yes, I agree that longrifles and hawkens and smoothbore fowlers are more "traditional", and yes, I agree that in-lines have certain advantages,

BUT FOR THE LOVE OF PETE!!! We all hunt, we all enjoy hunting and being outdoors, and all the other aspects of our sport that make it so grand.

Whether I use a lever-action and you a hyper-vel, super-ultra magnum, or you a flintlock and me a stainless and synthetic, scope-sighted in-line, WHO REALLY GIVES A [bleep]!!!

The only folks who gain from all this in-fighting are anti-hunters, who want all seasons shut down, regardless of weapon or justification. That's a simple fact.

Now, how's about we spend less time b!tchin' at each other and more time tryin' to help each other learn to appreciate the sport and (perish the thought) get some other folks involved as well?

Just my $0.02, adjusted for inflation and overt crankiness on a Monday...

who pulled your chain, va?
't'weren't me, hee hee.
i don't get in that fight. i got me a t/c black diamond after Christmas for $135 at wal-mart because i needed a muzzle loader to hunt a primitive area. it'll never wear a scope. but it does have firesights, which means an old dude like me can use "iron" sights for a few more years.
now, i am so cheap i'd really like to have available a stainless in-line twisted for patched round balls in .50 or .54 caliber persuasion. that'd be some cheap fun, wouldn't it?

............it's all good! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Custom built inlines and custom built flinters......got my bases covered.....

Hey Fish, I got my In Line for $105 and it will shoot balls OR conicals.

Neener, neener, neener.

well, they had the black diamond down to $99 the following week but i ain't complaining. i really like how that thing shoots and carries. gives me a hankering to set up a similarly balanced rig in a center fire.

Hey VA
relax, it goes back to if you dont shoot my caliber your not a man thing. It seems to be very prominate here at the fire. I agree with you. I am a traditionalist and make my own lube cast my own RB"s and minies. I also use real BP and dont like pyro crap, dont care for sabots either. This puts me in the bracket of being critized by the inliners because I dont use 777 or other synthitics. I just go to the Traditional ML forum and I am at home. I choose not to push the buttons here of the wanna be players and and be called a Troll. I come here not to offend but to learn and exchange ideas. there are to many inflated egos here and to much money spent on guns that shoot better then the person shooting them can handle.
hope this helps. just my paradine if anyone reading fits this description then sorry just MHO
Bearbeater

bearbeater, et al.

Thanks. I really just got a pissed at all the "well... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> " type crap that always seems to come out, esp. in the muzzleloading and bowhunting threads whenever anyone starts talking about choosing one way over another, or in comparison to the "other" way.

The facts are that a whole host of different options are legal and ethical. Certain angles into both bowhunting and muzzleloader are just plain easier for most folks to pick up, and that's a good thing, as getting them interested and keeping them that way is a HUGE part of continued success for hunting and shooting sports. Some decide to change ways after a while, and that's great, too.

Also, we are all hunters. We have that in common, and IMHO, ought to remember that, take pride in that, and treat each other with a bit more respect because of that. Those out there that don't want hunting, or even fishing, to continue are the only one's who benefit from our in-fighting.

I love 'em all, but favor more modern designs for one very practical reason: Here in my state there is no hi-power rifle hunting, only shotgun season (short length usually) and muzzleloading, which is the longer season. ERGO souped-up modern front-stuffers (far superior to shotguns) ARE our hi-power rifles.

Some muzzleloading guys see modern rifles, inlines, etc. as an afront to the spirit of the primitive arm, but we Rhode Islanders haven't really got the opportunity to be so traditional about the whole thing, it's simply a matter of pragmatism.

I refuse to get into any pissin' contest though, that isn't what this hobby is supposed to be about, is it?

.............same here in Iowa.

......And here in Ohio.

Here in Michigan the special muzzleloading season was created for primitive/traditional sidelock percussion and flintlock guns. Inlines were not around at that time.

I have no problem with anyone hunting with an inline during the regular gun season. The fact that they are becoming the weapon of choice over shotguns in the lower half of the state where high powered rifles are not allowed, makes it plain that they don't NEED a special season. JMHO

So it seems it comes down to if you want to hunt in the special muzzleloading season you have to attain a certain standard of primitiveness determined not by the fact that your weapon is a muzzleloader but how the ignition occurs. I guess I shouldn't be offended by somebody telling me I'm just not as primitive as they are. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'll put the fine print in bold so you can read it.

Here in Michigan the special muzzleloading season was created for primitive/traditional sidelock percussion and flintlock guns. Inlines were not around at that time.

The same thing happened to the archery season. The long special bow hunting season was created when everyone shot more primitive/traditional bows and 1 out of 20 bowhunters were successful. With todays modern bowhunting equiptment such a long season isn't needed. Again JMHO

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No problems reading as long as it's in English. Then they should have called it the "primitive/traditional sidelock percussion and flintlock guns" season and not the muzzleloader season. Of course then some manufacturer would have made a "primitive/traditional sidelock percussion and flintlock guns" that shot 270 and '06 cartidges and we'd have something new to argue about. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Your perspective and mine are just different as is clearly evident in your bowhunting opinion. But that's what makes the world go around! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My buddy shoots, among others, two Pacific Zephyrs, one a 20 bore the other a 12. These definitely fall under the 'traditional/primitive' heading with their underhammer design.

The 20 digests a powder load of 250 gr. per shot, the 12 bore swallows 350 Gr! That certainly puts them into the same league as 'modern' muzzleloaders for all but the longest practical shots despite their historic authenticity.

The brits' took out water buff's and the like at several hundred yards with arms of similar and larger class during the mid nineteenth century.

Not really. Appearance isn't what it seems. Operation of the piece, to obtain long range accuracy, incorporates several modern modifications.

There are those that argue the muzzleloader seasons should be set aside for the primitive weaponry, as was originally intended when the seasons came into being. Such traditional arms can't reach out much past 100 yards, however, to that range they are extremely accurate. All the new "muzzleloaders" having capabilities greater than that, belong in the regular firearm season.

Regards, sse

Link to Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Just read the "pissing contest" deal....

The whole topic is ridiculous.

Way back when "primitive" firearms were manufactured, I'm sure they were the latest state of the art developments.

I'm sure if you took one of those old percussion rifles and rebarreled it to modern specs to shoot smokeless, no body would have anything to say because it "looks" primitive. Conversely, if you took a stainless, synthetic stocked in line percussion rifle and rifled the barrel just like the old ones and used blackpower with patched balls or whatever, they would stick that rifle in the same class as a newly designed smokeless, solely because it "looks" modern. It's a case of the Diane Feinstein machine gun factor where she showed one Ruger Mini-14 with a black synthetic stock and declared it a machine gun while at the same time a Ruger Mini-14 with a wooden stock was shown to her and she declared it a hunting rifle. Duh!

My opinion is that if you truly want to be consistent with the "primitive" values and hunt in the fashion of the "true traditionalists" then you would have the most modern, stainless, smokeless, highest velocity producing, modern projectiled, synthetic stocked, 209 primered muzzleloader that you could find...Why? Because I believe the "primitive" hunters were trying to get the best possible technology they could put their hands on. Case in point: Did the American Indians insist on fighting the white man with bows and arrows? Hell no. They were trying to get their hands on as many guns as they could. Case closed.

IMHO of course...

Mike :-)

We must be talking apples and oranges, or someone is misinformed. The Zephyrs are quite historically accurate down to the style of rifling and the barrel steel. The 19th century British sporting rifles were constructed in the same fashion, and numerous accounts have been written of the hunting exploits of these men. American rifles of the same period were mere popguns by comparison.

If the replica is all the same, including propellant, projectile, "optics" utilized to attain such accuracy (or sights), and in all other respects, then I will stand corrected, and that would represent one of a few rare exceptions to the parameters I quoted.

Regards, sse

P.S. Saboted slugs are not historically accurate.

Jeesh...I'm with VA on this...load it and shoot it...kill a good one if ya can, we are all on the same team here, aren't we?

depends who ya ask. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just to set the record straight, I am the guy who owns the two Zephyrs referrenced in Hammer's posts.

First of all, Hammer is correct in what he says about the Brits and their hunting rifles. Their rifles functioned very differently than the rifles manufactured with the substandard technology employed by early Americans. Things to consider about the Brits technology, was their use of Forsythe slow twist rifling along with the quality of powders from that era. It is a fact that blackpowders of that era were much more energetic than the blackpowders and replicas made today.

So what are we really talking about here? My Zephyrs are early American 19th century in design with British ballistic technology from around that same era. The best of both worlds. They are extremely powerful and extremely accurate, to well out past 100 yards. All of this is accomplished with traditional technology. Do they maintain ballistic energy to compare with new modern smokeless muzzleloaders? Not quite, but do they belong in a highpower season? Definitely not. They are as traditional as any percussion muzzleloader ever made. They were just designed and manufactured utilizing the very best combination of technology that has existed for a couple of hundred years already, unlike these 70 grain shootin' .50 cal popguns that somehow have become so accepted today.

Also, sabots and saboted rounds are centuries old in their inception and use. So, I am not quite sure that statement is correct either.

All of the above was intended with all due respect and of course, IMHO. :-)

I'll straighten out the record further. Many modern style muzzleloaders can far out perform traditional muzzleloaders regarding ballistics and accuracy and were created for the sole purpose of taking advantage of "traditional" muzzleloader seasons. In some respects they are better performers than some centerfire cartridges. For these reasons, traditional enthusiasts don't believe they should be legal for "muzzleloader" seasons.

I have not done the research on the Zephyr, but if they attain their claimed accuracy with modern design modifications or materials to the action, sighting system or projectiles, they aren't traditional any more.

"Inlines", so it is said, were around in a "slightly" different version before flintlocks. That doesn't make the modern ones traditional. Same goes for sabots. When the laws change, they'll be transitional aberrations.

Regards, sse

Question #1: Is ________ legal to use during this hunting season?

Question #2: Is ________ ethical to use during this hunting season?

Seems the answer to both of those re: modern, advanced muzzleloaders during MOST (PA being the exception) muzzleloading seasons is "yes."

Everything after that is a matter of personal opinion.

I.e. "Is it legal for me to fish with a spinning rod and bait for trout this year?" Yes. "Is it ethical to do so?" Yes. "Do I want to, and feel right about doing so?" _________.

Take it in context to this discussion:

"Is it legal for me to use my scope-sighted T/C System 1, stainless/walnut carbine, .50 cal. with lead conicals, during the fall muzzleloading season?" Yes.

"Is it ethical for me to do so?" Yes.

"Do I want to, and do I feel right about doing so?"

Seems the vast majority of the problems aren't on the first two questions, but on the last one, and whether or not you/me/we want everyone else who answers the first two questions "yes" to answer the third the same way as you/I/we do and hunt with the same thing that you/I/we do.

don't you know, va, that feelings are paramount?
it's the postmodern age ...
and can you see the toxic satirical venom dripping from this post? it's the bile-green viscous ooze just about to slip into your keyboard ...
feelings, my eyeteeth.

A very good summary VA. Ethics can not be regulated (well) and best enforced when self imposed.

Allen

Zephyrs shoot TRADITIONAL patched round balls, are made of TRADITIONAL materials, color case hardened iron and browned steel, TRADITIONAL Forsythe type rifling, and sight through TRADITIONAL open sights featuring full buckhorn rear.

RickyD,...I've got my butt in a jam here on more than one occasion trying to defended both sides of the issue with the common goal of keeping HUNTING in the foreground. I see nothing wrong at all with hunting with whatever weapon you want as long as it is LEGAL where it is being used. WTF, maybe I think this way cause I have hunted with traditional sidelocks, ENJOYED it, killed my BEST whitetail with one during ML late season. I currently hunt with an inline, ENJOY that too, generally fill my tags during ML late season when I have the woods to myself. Next season I will hunt with a flinter and the inline, expect to enjoy that also.

I would like to hope that everyone is on the same team as far as hunting is concerned, safety and enjoyment of the outdoors....

wildswalker,
I agree with everything you are saying.

VA makes good points but I don't think they "work" on die hard traditionalists since they don't think it should be legal to use inlines in the special muzzleloader season they consider was started for their benefit and not for the johnny-come-lately inliners. I can understand their point of view and can't fault them for it. Good hunting and good hunting seasons are something we all cherish and giving ground on such treasures can be painful.

I do believe since Tony Knight and his peers came on the MZ scene, the popularity of the sport has soared. I also believe the traditionalists have seen their ranks swell as those who got into it for the lure of the inline dug deeper into the sport, or vise versa, as in your case.

In the end, no one is a loser unless they want to be, but certain realities should be accepted. It would be very difficult to restrict in-lines in muzzleloader seasons where they are now accepted, given the numbers involved and stength of the industry.

What the traditionalists should push for is another separate season for them, with equipment defined as they choose. In Iowa we have no firearms season during our rut. A traditional MZ season for 3 or 4 days then would be a grandslam for them and I would soon be shopping for some new toys.

RickyD, well....if a state has a traditional only ML season then thats what they gotta go with and visa versa....I couldn't gripe on that if it was me...I'd just go get me a traditional....wait, I got a couple already. Jeesh, I put my flinter together just to hunt the late PA season. I'll use it here too and have a ball.

Really I do understand the traditionalists both in muzzleloaders and in archery (yep long bow and Mathews compound both in my gear), but....how can a traditionalist get pizzed if the guy on the other ridge has an inline?Unless it a jealosy thing... "He got a deer and I didn't, must be cause he had a inline with a scope". Unfair advantage? That would be like me getting mad if the guy over there had a shotgun and I had a 30-06. Who cares....Choices man, shoot what ya want if you are allowed...Maybe I'm just spoiled with always having had enough ground around me so these things didn't matter...In the boondocks this stuff isn't even an issue.

Bet I can throw a wrench in this discussion...I got no time for pyrodex crap, 777 or pelletized propellants. I true weigh real black powder charges (in traditional rifles and inlines) and have done so for years with outstanding accuracy. The "fakes" don't do it for me. But thats just my opinion.

[


(The only folks who gain from all this in-fighting are anti-hunters, who want all seasons shut down, regardless of weapon or justification. That's a simple fact.) Quote

I believe that's exactly what i said in the Savage/Omega thread. Anti's want us to fight amongst ourselves. THEY WIN that way. You know something else I've been considering. The way some of these discussions go, I am begining to think there's an anti or two lurking on these forums. I wish there was some sort of background check the campfire could put us through. I have so many guns and archery equipment I could choose a different weapon from now till doomsday and not use the same one twice, so get off my back!!!!! Not meant for you Nimrod. You're one of the choir members <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

longbeardking;

I saw, read, and agreed with the post on the other forum, and you're right on a LOT of levels.

Per the anti in the midst... I wouldn't doubt it. Not in the least.

(Hey, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they AREN'T out to get you...)

HEY ALL
go back and read my post/reply
Bearbeater

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />OK I went back ad read your reply again. I may be missing something. BUT I don't think so. The ONLY time you'll see me criticize is when something is illegal or unethical. I know I shouldn't have said that word. I sit both sides of the fence. I have shot more deer with my T/C Hawken (which ain't a Hawken at all) loaded with the maxi-ball (which used to be illegal in some states that allowed only patched round ball) and 100 grains of BLACK POWDER. I saw an add for the Savage inline and the bit about smokless and said WOW it's about time. I bought one with money that was given to me at Christmas. It's stainless. I HATE stainless. BUT it was all I could find. It is covered from stock to muzzle with camo tape. I love the idea of being able to hunt all day and not having to clear the gun and then go back to camp tired as hell and have to boil water with ivory soap and clean it. To ME,,, the ONLY advantage of the smokless gun over the traditional is the cleaning. I have a Lyman receiver sight on the Hawken and a Leupold 2X7 on my Savage and the Savage is NO more accurate than the Hawken AND they both load from the muzzle. They both take the same amount of time to load between shots. Just for the books. I have 2 Hawken rifles. 1 percussion one flinter. I have a Zoli Zouave 58 cal percussion. 1 T/C 50 cal Renegade, and 1 50 cal System 1 with the optional 12 ga shotgun barrel. AND the one Savage. The System 1, the Renegade, and the Zouave were all gifts. The guns are ALL more accurate than the shooter. I have two longbows and 1 compound. I shoot aluminum and wood arrows. No carbons. If anyone were a hodge-podge kind of guy, it's me. You do what you want and I'll do what I want. Just stay within the law and I'll be silent. Instead of putting down your fellow hunter, bring someone new into the heritage we all love. Have a nice day. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There are a few sidelock-only seasons in some states. There are efforts underway in some other areas to create seperate side-lock only seasons in addition to "muzzleloader" seasons.

Regards, sse

Let's smoke 'em out if thats true.....nothin' worse than a traitor....except a liar...or an anti hunter....

I guess you can stand on a soapbox and demand folks do things YOUR way. (good luck) I guess I really am a dinosaur. I hunt meat. Oh, I take the occasional good buck if there is a shot - I'll even take up to a month to set him up - but in the meantime, I'm out there bringing down food. Nearly ALL of my red meat is venison. If there is season for a particular type of weapon, I use it. More time in the field = more food. As a benefit, I get to walk around outside, and wax philosophical.... as I wait for the next bag of burger to meander into range.

Sounds good to me!

Like this?

Under hammer

i have 9 muzzle loaders inlines and sude locks and 3 with mule ear hammers. u pick the rifle and ill shoot it against any thing u have poimt being if u take a barrel any barrel and twist p.ut the same lock on it and it will shoot so damn close that you cant tell the diff. i have a inline custem made that will put 5 shots in a half dollor at 100 yards. then i have a round ball shootes that will put 5 shots in about 4in at 100yardsthe diff would be the schope on the inline so guys if you can shoot it well take it to the woods any enjoy life

Yep!...yessir...you betcha...I believe ever word yer sayin. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The muzzloading season here in NH came about because a bunch of primitive shooters, traditional flint and caplock guys wanted thier own season. As president of a 850 member club all I heard for years from rifle hunters who bought TC's was that the damn things wont go off, the caps just go pop. Over and over , year after year. Lets face it they didnt know anything about muzzloaders, didnt take care of them and only used th primitive season as an extra 2 weeks of hunting. As far as I am concerned, that is what in-line rifles do, give rifle hunters an extra 2 weeks of hunting. Muzzloading and its traditions be damned. I dont mind thier doing it, but lets be real here and call a spade a spade.

I agree with that to a degree. The other thing they do is give hunters in states with areas that restrict centerfire rifles a good option to shotguns. As far as extended seasons go I'm all for setting seasons as long as possible so long as there isn't a negative impact on the resource. I love the fact that I can hunt deer in Michigan for 3 straight months. Depending on the season, area, and my mood I use a compound bow, longbow, shotgun, side lock percussion Renegade with irons, In-line Omega with a scope, centerfire rifle, and on occasion a handgun. It's all fun. I respect any hunter who is law abiding, respectful of nature, safe, and ethical. I really don't care what type of weapon they choose.



Jeff

'Dat's 'dem!

As a long time muzzle loading enthusiast....been hunting with flint and caplocks since 1968.....I suspect that much of the resentment comes from losing what was a fairly quiet and reclusive time in hunting.
Before all the inlines started to come into vogue , there were a comparitively few , fairly dedicated hunters in the woods during ML season.On the rare occasions when you did meet other hunters in the woods,there was an instant cameraderie that doesn't come about as often today.
I suspect there are many who miss that experience.It's just easier to use in lines , especially scoped , and there are now not only a lot more hunters in the woods during ML season,many are a different kind of hunter.Many of us miss that experience that we enjoyed prior to the coming of the in lines.

Hey
I have a confession to make. I have an inline. Its a T/C scout does that design ok to still be traditional??
Bearbeater
54 cal of course.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />I guess I'm missing your point. Not to be construed as disagreeing with you. Everyone has an opinion and it does matter! I have been hunting with a smokepole since 1972. My lovely wife bought me an Antonio Zoli Zouave and I was off. I was amazed at how accurate the gun was. At first it was 65 grains of FFG and it was marginal. A friend who shot the same gun in matches suggested I switch from FFG to FFFG with the volume being the same. I was pushing a 58 cal. minnie into a 3" max group at 100 yds. from a rest. One rainy misty morning I was on stand and a nice 4 pointer walked to about 40 yds. Mine RIGHT???? WRONG !!!! I squeezed, and BLOOP. The powder was damp. It was a hang fire and a long drawn out burn. Oh the joys of blackpowder!!!!! My wife and I didn't have much money at that time. A prior divorce and child support took care of that. Thompson Center Hawken was the buzz word back then. I had to have one. Now get this. In 1974 I TRADED a Rem. 700 BDL 30-06, a Marlin mod.62 in .256 Win. mag., AND a Ruger single six 22 convert.22 mag, EVEN for a 50 cal. Hawken. With that rifle I have killed more deer than any other rifle I own regardless of what it shoots. My son got into the game with me and started with a Renegade in 50 cal. My brother-in-law got into the action after shooting my Hawken and bought his own. I bought another Renegade for my father-in-law. As my father-in-law aged he began to complain about the weight of the Renegade. He was also fighting cancer. Thompson had come out with the neat little System-1. I started looking into them and decided to buy him one just to keep him in the woods with me. Conversation with my son left me with no doubt that he would like one also. That Christmas I bought one for each of them. Son shoots black powder and Dad shot Pyrodex. The last year Dad hunted he shot a nice 6 pointer WITH the in-line topped with a Redfield widefield 1 1/2-4X. He was SO happy. On the same day, same hour my brother-in-law got his FIRST deer with his Hawken. What a treat for me. Dad's gone now, my son has his own life, my brother in law is money minded, so most of the time I'm in the woods alone. Years have passed, but I'm still intrigued with new things. Savage came out with the SMOKLESS pole. STILL a front stuffer!!! By the way, in the days when the mountain man carried theirs, though very uncommon, they could scope THEIR rifles. The ONLY advantage to the Savage is the option of being able to use the smokless powder. Would there be so much opposition if they could ony shoot black powder or a black powder substitute. Wait, did I just say substitute? Isn't smokless a substitute to black powder?? This makes cleaning at the end of a long day in the woods unessary, and a mis-fire on a rainy day almost impossible. Honestly, how many of us have hunted on a day when we shouldn't have been out there because of the weather conditions. How many of us have wounded a deer and lost it due to the gun not performing properly because of the weather?? I have already said I was going back to the side hammer Hawken AND BLACK POWDER only because I like feeling like a frontiersman and doing the way thay did. BUT, when it's raining outside and the TRUE contientious, died in the wool, muzzleloading hunter stays home out of love and respect for the deer, I'll be out there with my Savage 10ML-II loaded with smokless just itching to shoot some meat. I love hunting and hunters. We are becoming fewer and fewer each year. Cities are growing, the countryside is shrinking. Attitudes are changing about out passed time. Choose whatever you want to carry, stay within and respect the law. Make friends with the land owner. The next time you see a fellow hunter in the woods, instead of shunning him, stop and say hello. Offer friendship instead of animosity. Let's respect each other. IMO this is the best was to defeat the anti's. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Amen!

I'm confused. By "PRIMITIVE" are we talking about weapons of choice or intelligence. I dont mean to be disrespectful and I apologize for being out of line, but if we continue to argue about the specific way in which each of us hunt, we may not be able to hunt at all. Let's think of the bigger picture.
And that's coming from someone in Commifornia.
Shame on us.

Maestro

I understand the sentiment expressed, and I second it. Where I reside, here in this bastion of left-wing political correctness, and all that other nauseatingly wrong-headed stuff, just the mere fact that I hunt, or possess "A" firearm (that's even ONE of them) makes me something of an oddball. That sort of thing is 'weirdo' stuff to mainstream society in this part of the country!

Consequently many, if not most of the people who do own firearms and hunt are hardly dedicated to it, so much so that the vast majority have never investigated muzzleloading at all. If they have, they frequently have destroyed their weapons due to ignorance as to care required, etc, and given up on it as "too much trouble." I've heard of or witnessed so many instances of this phenomenon, considering the few numbers involved overall, it boggles my mind!

During shotgun deer season, I have witnessed instances from my stand, like several 'hunters' walking along noisily laughing and joking, as though that was how hunting is done, racking their pump guns, etc., sometimes shooting at debris.

Although meatheads like these sometimes screw things up during muzzleloading season also, the percentage is apparently much lower, so THANK GOD there are two separate seasons! It weeds out some of the clueless from those actually interested in persuing this rewarding activity.

The only real complaint I can muster is that in-lines have become so pervasive that finding traditional sidelocks and flinters has become a bit more difficult and is getting more pricey. That is a pain in the ass.

Hammerspur,
YOU TOO!
I often feel like the "Lost Sock" here in Cali. Its nice to see Im not alone.
Thanks for the free therapy.
maestro

I'm new to this forum, so excuse me. I agree with Evil Twin I have recently found the sidelocks are only being made by the more expensive manufactures. Where as the less expensive BP Inline and Break Actions are made by CVA, Rossi, H&R, NEF, Traditions, and Braztech are giving the less affluent shooters more options. Personally, I like the Sidelock and the Break-Action. I like the ease of cleaning the Break Actions, but I like the delay the sidelock gives you, knowing you have to hold the sight line that extra second. This debate will probable never be solved. I just know I've pulled my nephew and son-in-law into the sidelock design and my son and daughters into the break action style and we have fun with both when we go out. The best part of BP that I believe most people forget is the time it takes to fire these weapons. You get a lot of time between shots to trash talk towards each other when on the range, and thats the enjoyable part of firing these weapons. The shot placement is important , but the jostling and familiarity to me is more so.

My only concern is also practical. Here in Maryland, a muzzle loader is legal in any area where a slug shooting shotgun is legal for hunting. That is because when the ML season was first introduced most shooters were using round balls or minnie balls of some sort, and they were equated with pumpkin balls and rifled slugs in the official minds. At some point the DNR folks are going to figure out that a saboted bullet from a scope sighted rifle will carry about the same as a modern rifle bullet, and the party will come to an end. However, at the same time, I have never really understood why a rifled slug is considered less of a threat than a rifle bullet for producing "collateral damage" in the first place!
Yrs,
Bill

[Here in my state there is no hi-power rifle hunting, only shotgun season (short length usually) and muzzleloading, which is the longer season. ERGO souped-up modern front-stuffers (far superior to shotguns) ARE our hi-power rifles.

FWIW, IMO there should be no discernable delay with a sidelock...ignition should be a single instantaneous event...any delay destroys accuracy due to muzzle wander.

Getting caplocks and flintlocks to shoot about like a .30-30 is part of the challenge & sense of accomplishment in learning about & mastering them...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

After listening to the complaints of high powered rifle shooters about those "damned muzzloaders" in the days before in-lines
and the bitching about "why dont they just give us an extra two weeks of rifle season and screw the muzzloaders" it is apparent that the only connection to muzzloaders these dudes had was to get in an extra two weeks of hunting season. None of them ever cleaned a breach so they only got a pop when trying to fire the "damnded things that never go off". Now with the in-line these dudes have thier high-power rifle extra two weeks of deer season. If all states changed thier muzzloading season to "flintlocks only" 40 million in-line rifles would suddenly appear on used gun racks. Wouldnt break my heart at all. I hunt the BP season with a .50 caliber flintlock, only once in shooting for 35 yrs have I had a hangfire or misfire, and during the rifle season I use my 7x57. No deer I ever shot with the BP rifles traveled more than 300 yds which conveniently took him to within 500 yds of my vehicle.

Guys, it ain't about the type of guns and equipment, it's about sharing the hunting grounds with someone else, whom someone else thinks shouldn't be there, because they weren't in the beginning.

Hey

IN the beginning there was real black powder, flint, patch and round ball and all said this is good.
Then came percussion cap and then all said this is better.
All was god for years and then came one saying I have a conical and this will help you better and some said no and then they argued and finally the conical was accepted as long as it was not jackted with copper. all was happy again.
Then one day a man came along with a new design and a stainless steel barrel, plastic stock and it looked differant and it swallowed fake BP that most liked and on top it had a tube that they looked through and they thought they shot better. Some even colored them as to blend into the lanscape. some got all upset and emotional and said this cant be and others said why not and a great divide was created in the hunting world.
Many stayed and held on to their sidelocks and others bought inlines.
Others use real BP others liked fake BP
All shot well but they still looked at each other with distain.
Some organised and started their own group where inlines were not welcome.
But one thing was in common with all they all loaded from the front, This is good!!
We should all be thankful for what we have as long as the Fed Gods allow us to have them.
THIS WE ALL HAVE IN COMMON!!!!!!!!!!!
Peace to all
Bearbeater

Oh sure Bearbeater, go an through common sence, logic and facts into the mix.
Here are some observations (I don't clutter my mind with facts as it slows things down) from hunting my whole life here in Ohio / shotgun country. I prefer to hunt traditional, but embrace the chance to hunt with new friends if inlines make this happen. I have found that those that don't practice, and I know alot that don't, do better when the manufacturer has worked out most of the bugs. There have been times when I wished more hunters would be out because the deer weren't moving. This is usualy the case after the first day around here. I'm not afraid of new developments. I chose not to use them but some day something may be made that I do like.
Here is a situation that has some coralation. Here in Ohio, back in the 70's, when crossbows were rearing their ugly head, traditional bowhunters chalenged the crossbow. "It's too modern. It gives them too much advantage. They're invading our season. They don't have to practice because it's so accurate." These were some of the arguments I heard. Well the state listened and allowed the crossbow. There were considerations that allowed the crossbow to have it's own season that just happened to co-exist with the longbow season. This made it easier to alter the crossbow season if there were issues to be dealt with. I believe this is now one season for bow, inclusive.
Now it's thirty years later, and here are my findings. I hunt with a crossbow. My shoulders won't allow me to draw a bow enough to practice daily. Ther aren't that many folks out there hunting regularly to be a crowded situation. I almost never see a hunter while in the woods. The deer population in Ohio is strong and produces record class deer anualy. And all this even with those scary crossbows.
My 70 year old father hunts with an inline. God bless him.
One last benefit. When it's time to stand up to the federal demons, there are more on my side to be heard.
Just some thoughts. Thanks for listening. Gobbler.

Since you are so "understanding",.... I guess you fully realize that the original muzzleloading seasons "concept" was based upon several factors.
One factor being the inherit limitations of the traditional muzzleloader's exposed ignition system, rendering it at the mercy of inclement weather.
Another "limitation" was the limited ballistics of traditional muzzleloaders before the introduction of plastic sabots and new breech developements designed to withstand "magnum charges" in order to push jacketed bullets to velocities not before possible with lead bullets without "leading" the bore.



New folks wishing to expereience the "mystic" of traditional muzzleloading are currently the "LOSERS", as many inexpensive production traditional muzzleloading rifles are disappearing from the dealer's shelves and being replaced with cheap inlines.



Telling some of those folks that lobbied for the original muzzleloading seasons, they should "push or another seperate season" is bound to continue these types of debates.

Are proponents of modern inlines too stupid to realize that they are the one's bringing these "contentions" to the table and NOT the traditionalists????

The proponents of modern inlines have been constantly attempting to change the original "concept" of our muzzleloading seasons for years, and convince everyone that the original muzzleloading seasons were based solely on the fact that traditional muzzleloaders "load from the muzzle" and are no different then modern inlines. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

As a die-hard traditionalist,.... I think folks choseing to hunt with modern inlines should have "pushed for their own season" without riding on the backs of traditionalists. IMHO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anyone willing to bet they could have succeeded in getting modern inlines accepted into a "special season" of their own,.... by doing their own work?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anyone even willing to bet,.... that the continuous decimation of the "inherit limitations" upon which our original muzzleloading seasons were originaly based,.... will stop any time soon, or will the decimation stop only when modern technology advancements have completely destroyed our (special) muzzleloading seasons altogether??

Regards!
Spotted Horse

Hey Spotted Horse

WELCOME TO THE FIRE!!!!

Bearbeater

Thanks bud,.... although I doubt I'll get the same "welcome" from everyone here, because I get tired of reading the same Ole'Crap repeated on many of these muzzleloading forums and thought it was time to speak up.

Regards!
Spotted Horse

In relatively Modern terms.....

Modern Bows used to be only long bows and recurves...Modern Rifles used to be what...?...30-30's and 300 Savages ect....

Now in this day we have ultra speed single cams and ultra velocity mags of various calibers and sizes....

My bet is demand fuels supply...and the demand for inlines is bigger than that for side lock traditionals...doesn't mean they are disappearing just taking a back seat...just like the recurve and long bow and the Winchester 30-30...

I'm not advocating the rise or fall of either one cause I use both...and enjoy the attributes of both...as far as riding the backs of traditionalists because I tote an inline some days...HA!...I don't think thats a fair statement...Society is allowing for the advancement of technological change...ideas foster desires, desires foster demand, demand fosters supply....

We live in a trendy society...doesn't mean you can't go with the flow and still do your own thing......like some of do....

I've been in circles where it's uncool to be a long haired country boy with redneck roots....doesn't mean I have to change a thing....

You seem to have missed my point which is,.... our special muzzleloading seasons are based on the concept of "limitations".

When those "limitations" have been overcome with modern technology the special muzzleloading seasons will no longer be "justifiable" in the eyes of our states legislative bodies (who happen to hold sway over our state game departments).

The easiest way for the game departments to handle such a situation, would be to eliminate our special muzzleloading seasons altogether.
If/when that happens,.... it won't be because of traditionalists or traditional muzzleloading weapons.

FWIW,.... I fail to see what being a long haired country boy with redneck roots, has to do with any of this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Regards!
Spotted Horse

I think you are the one missing the point.........








IF there is an increase in muzzleloading interest AND an increase in the sale of muzzleloaders as well as the sale of muzzleloader related gear......WHICH in case you didn't notice, is happening at a phenominal rate.......everywhere you look....

I HIGHLY doubt the "powers that be" are going to cut their own throat by cutting out any muzzleloader hunting seasons that are only going to continually increase sportsmen generated revenue as suggested by your paranoia.....Just because what..?...muzzleloading rifles are becoming increasingly prefered to have scopes and 209 ignition..? Bow season is still bow season...that never changed here because the popular bows are now faster and the arrows are lighter....

I fail to see YOUR logic.......


As a side note....my "State legislative body" is going the other way...from which you predict, they are allowing us more oportunity....the use of rifles in "shotgun only" areas is becoming popular Fact as demonstated by the allowance of rifles in two counties this past deer season, and the likely inclusion of two more counties this next go round....Amazing huh?

With that example I say again....I don't understand your logic.....AND before you start picking on me for prefering an inline for some of my deer hunting duties take a look at the one I use just for gits and shiggles......

Name ONE state that has closed muzzleloader season because of inline muzzleloaders.......................................................

.........................................................................................


.......................................................................................

...................................I'm waiting.....................................


........................................................................................


..................................STILL WAITING.................................



.........................................................................................



...........................OH, what's that???......you can't name even one state that has closed muzzleloader season because of inlines?????...............................so, chicken little.....guess the sky isn't really falling after all!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Here's the deal.......YOU choose to limit yourself to weapons that LOOK primitive........and you think the rest of us should just jump at the chance to do the same..........well, we aren't buying it...most of us are more about the hunting than the "romantic fantasy" of primitive looking equipment.........

If they ever open a "rock" season for deer.......you can bet I'll have the best rock I can find.....and you, and people like you will bitch because somebody's rock is more modern than yours......<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

GonHuntin......Well...I wasn't going to say it to him THAT way but....... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I must be crazy too. Ain't that the same thing that it gives the traditional muzzle load hunters? If you just want to hunt with your muzzleloader, can't you do it during the rifle season? Inquiring minds want to know. miles

You forgot to insert the word "modern inline" in front of the the word muzzleloaders above. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

.........or, are you saying that you have wittnessed an "increase" of traditional muzzleloaders on dealer's shelves in your area at a phenominal rate????????




The "powers that be" will always protect their throats, especialy when it comes to public opinion.
Do you think "Joe Blow" knows the difference between a modern inline and a modern centerfire?????????

BTW,.... You can't use bow season as a comparison to muzzleloading season,.... because bow seasons weren't a "split" from any pre-existing modern archery seasons,.... as was muzzleloaders from modern high velocity centerfires in the early '70's.






With game populations currently at an all-time high across the nation, thats not "amazing" at all,..... and I'm certainly happy that you're convinced game-populations will remain that way forever. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />





Simply owning a "doctored-up" flintlock doesn't make you a traditionalist,..... that my young friend comes only from the "heart".
FYI,.... I'm no more "picking on you" than anyone else that promotes modern inlines without understanding (or appreciateing) the "original concept" of how our special muzzleloading seasons came to be. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regards!
Spotted Horse

That's my cue right there.....


....DFTFT................. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

My aren't we impatient!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />




Please post a "quote" from my posts where I've used the word "LOOK" in them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />




Seem's I've hit a nerve,.......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (how's it feel???????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />)

Regards!
Spotted Horse

I don't know what "DFTFT" means,.... but I'm sure it was meant in a friendly way!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Have a good weekend!
Spotted Horse

No inliner is going to tell you NOT to hunt with your traditional equipment. Most of the agitation on forums has a clear source - traditionalists that think it's their opinion or the wrong opinion.

Far and away the majority of whitetail deer are taken at ranges of less than 75 yards regardless of weapon. Is your traditional equipment effective at 75 yards? If so, are you at some sort of disadvantage compared to someone with an inline? What is it, other than perhaps your own perceptions?

Things change.

DFTFT....yeah bud that was friendly...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Six posts and he's got a fight started..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

That beats my record by a mile.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Another "Bristoe" Type with a finger on the quote machine...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Sound the Bart Alarm.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Chicken Little

The "LOOK" part of my post is because you want to limit yourself (and the rest of us) to weapons that LOOK primitive but, in reality, aren't primitive at all........How many of your muzzleloaders were made with the quality of steel available when the first "kentucky" rifles were made??? How many of your muzzleloaders were made with the really poor springs that could be made in those days.......how many of them have barrels rifled by hand??? Or, are you shooting MODERN weapons made with modern steels on modern machinery that are simply made to LOOK like primitive weapons......get it??? You aren't hunting with a primitive weapon!

Hit a nerve??? Hardly.......I can legally hunt during my state's 9 day muzzleloader season with inlines, scopes, sabots and even smokeless powder if I choose to......or, I can take my 50 cal. flintlock charged with black and a patched roundball if I decide I want to carry it.......I can even hunt with a muzzleloading pistol if I so choose!

You know.....I have never heard a single inline shooter complain about another hunter using a flintlock or caplock......we don't even mind if you want to dress up and pretend to be Daniel Boone.......if that's your thing......have at it......but don't be offended if we don't share the fantasy!

By the way.......I'm STILL waiting for you to show me one state that has closed muzzleloader season because of inlines!!!

I think you've missed my point also! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Traditional muzzleloaders do not put our special muzzleloading seasons in jeopardy because of their "inherit limitations",.... but continued technological advancements in modern inlines "DO",.... as the differences between them and modern singleshot centerfires dwindle.

Some folks are so eager to jump on the "high tech" wagon, that they don't see the tree it's for,..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Traditionalists are doing the best they can to preserve the original concept of our special muzzleloading seasons, and I see modern inliner's as only enjoying the "free ride" before someone else applies the brakes for them. (unfortunately the traditionalists that worked so hard for these special seasons,.... could also be among the casualites when the wagon hits the tree <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />)

Regards!
Spotted Horse

I've not missed the point at all. The only "effort" I've heard of to eliminate muzzleloader seasons entirely came from the keyboard of a proclaimed traditionalist. How stupid is that?

At one point I shared some of your concerns about losing seasons. No more. But if I had any such concerns now about such a thing those concerns would be for all of us, not just some few of us that fancy themselves the pure of heart and worthy because of the equipment they carry.

Spotted Horse, were you a participant in those ancient battles where seasons were fought for and won by some handful of mythical folks? My guess is that TC had a great deal to do with the institution of those seasons. I hunted in one of New Hampshire's very first muzzleloader seasons with a T/C Hawken. It was one of the most accurate muzzleloaders I've ever owned. Inherent limitations? Now I use inlines but I'm still the same person.

The point YOU (and those like you) MISS is that your rights and privildges afield are no greater than the next guy's.

Spotted Horse,
You've made quite an impression in just 7 posts.
I want to give you some free advice because the
24Hour Campfire is a place that alot of us are very
protective of...
Back up...Start over...This is a big happy BS session...
Folks come here to learn and relax...Not be run down
by a stranger.
These boys' around here are good people and will probably give you a second chance at a first impression...Good luck.
Bart

A couple general comments not directed at any one, just posting 'next in line'...for what it's worth, here are some simple, unemotional, facts:

1) I've now hunted with nothing but Flintlocks for the past 5 complete hunting seasons...filled 4 buck and 2 doe tags each of those years with patched round balls;

2) My first Flintlock squirrel was almost as thrilling as my first Flintlock buck;

3) I've come to know a lot of people now...scores and scores of them...who hunt with rifles which load front the front...sidelocks and inlines;

4) Some of those people also only hunt with sidelock muzzleloaders all hunting season long;

5) I don't know a single muzzleloading enthusiast who hunts with an inline during the primitive season, who then continues to hunt with that inline all during the rest of the regular centerfire gun season...they switch to modern guns on opening day of regular gun season as sure as the sun rises in the east.

IMO, that puts all the emotional debates aside, and speaks volumes of the single-minded purpose for which inlines are typically bought...just summarizing the facts, not agruing a point.

Knows little

Believe it or not,.... our special seasons were lobbied for by folks shooting those very same (modern) flintlocks and percussion rifles you mention...... because their EXPOSED IGNITION and TRADITIONAL COMPONETS were the same as those 200 years before.




Do you honestly believe that was the "original concept" when your state established it's first special muzzleloading season????????????????????????????????????????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />




Why should they complain,..... after all, the traditionalists did the "work" for them by lobbying their game departments so modern inliners could get a free ride. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />




Knows little

That's real "BIG" of you!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

..... but believe it or not, the majority of traditionalists actually dress just like you do but are primaily interested in "traditional muzzleloaders",..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Do you "fantaize" about carrying a modern high velocity smokeless centerfire,.... when you're packing your modern inline???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />




I'm STILL waiting for a rational explaination of how you are garrunteed there won't be such closeings in the future!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regards!
Spootted Horse

Jeesh........

The sign is plain as day....I could follow this one in a blinding blizzard after dark with no light and one eye poked out.....

The smell would guide me.......

DFTFT........

Me thinks an anti might could be pokin''round heeyah....

Bart,.... I appreciate your advice, but I simply stopped by to make my opinion regarding the "direction" muzzleloading is going, known on this forum.

Some of your forum members probably already know who I am, and are familiar with my dedication towards preserving our special muzzleloader seasons.

I bid you all farewell, and hope I've given this board something to think about.

Adios!
Spotted Horse (aka) rollingb

"I don't know a single muzzleloading enthusiast who hunts with an inline during the primitive season, who then continues to hunt with that inline all during the rest of the regular centerfire gun season...they switch to modern guns on opening day of regular gun season as sure as the sun rises in the east."


Roundball, with all due respect, you do know OF at least one. I know several. How does that fit into your facts? The sun must now rise elsewhere.

I hunt exclusively with muzzleloaders. My two centerfires haven't been shot in at least 5 years and then only at paper targets.

Chicken Little

Like I said.....and now you have admitted......you don't hunt with primitive weapons.......you hunt with modern weapons that look like primitive weapons.......

I wonder if you would be just as upset if I used an underhammer rifle......it's an inline and is as historically correct as your side hammer......as far as exposed ignition goes......well, many of us figured that out a LONG time ago.......a little beeswax around the #11 cap and the threads of the nipple and my side hammer is as weatherproof as my inline..........

Original concept????.....well I'm a realist, I understand that things change.....back when the season was established...... there weren't anywhere close to the number of deer we have now.....and, modern inlines couldn't have been included because they didn't exist....but that certainly does not mean they would not have been accepted......I'm not really concerned what was legal then......I'm concerned with what is legal NOW......a couple of years ago, I e-mailed the wildlife dept in my state and asked if smokeless powder was legal.......they said......if it loads from the muzzle.......it's a muzzleloader.......period......

Now, if you want to try to defend your position by saying that seasons *MIGHT* be closed because of inlines......well, you are going to have to show us some evidence, because things are going just the opposite way in my state and many others......the wildlife dept here wanted to extend our 9 day muzzleloader season to 16 days for this year so we would kill more deer!! So much for closed seasons due to inline use..........

If we rule out lost seasons due to inline use......then the ONLY other possible reason you could have for not including inlines in muzzleloader seasons is pure selfishness.......you don't want to share a season with people who choose to use weapons that don't follow your notion of how things should be.........

Here's an idea for you.......buy some land and restrict the hunting on that land to people who have the same Danial Boone fantasy that you have......ban inlines on your property and enjoy yourself!!!

Just so there is no misunderstanding.....I don't harbor any ill will towards you or most other misguided fanatics like you.......I'm sure you are a great guy and I figure you mean well......you are just caught up in selfishness because you think including inlines will somehow hurt your chances at success.......you are more about the equipment than the hunt.......

When I sit and watch the sunrise while waiting to see that big buck and I get to hear the quail call and watch the turkeys fly down and see a coon headed to bed for the day............the rifle/handgun/bow/muzzleloader I hold in my hands doesn't determine whether my day is a success..... and the thought of whether or not the next guy is carrying a weapon that meets my approval never enters my mind.......I just hope that all hunters can continue to enjoy the experience of the hunt.........


By the way......I'm STILL waiting for you to show me one state that has closed muzzleloader season because of inlines....... what's that old saying.....oh yeah......put up or shut up!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Sorry...but you can't change my facts just because you might want to...my statement stands:

"I don't know a single muzzleloading enthusiast who hunts with an inline during the primitive season, who then continues to hunt with that inline all during the rest of the regular centerfire gun season......they switch to modern guns on opening day of regular gun season as sure as the sun rises in the east."


YOU may know someone who does that but I don't...and even if you did, you surely wouldn't be claiming it's the rule in general rather than a very, very rare exceptional case.

Put another way, at least in the national context of muzzleloading in general, if inlines were relagated to being used only during existing centerfire hunting seasons, by and large they would just collect dust in gun cabinets.

Put another way, at least in the national context of muzzleloading in general, if inlines [color:"red"]or sidelocks, or flintlocks[/color] were relagated to being used only during existing centerfire hunting seasons, by and large they would just collect dust in gun cabinets.

Actually, IMO, the majority of them would continue to be used to a far greater degree than inlines would be, if not 100%, and it's basically the distinction I'm making.

The majority of folks who chooose to use ML's designed more like traditional ones than a modern inline, are in it for that purpose, that attraction, that little bit of historical interest, the challenge of the technology used back then, etc.

If not, they wouldn't waste the time and money it takes to learn and master the old ways, they'd just buy an inexpensive blisterpacked inline at Walmart in the first place and go hunting.

If you're interested in creating a debate with me about this, it's not going to happen...I won't get drawn into emotional threads like this one has become, because people lose sight of the discussion topic and it becomes a game of emotional one-ups-man-ship...life is too short.

I've already spent my years moving through Knight inlines, then sidelock percussions, and finally into Flintlocks...if you're ever in central NC and might have an interest in a learning/hands on shooting session at my range, let me know...be glad to share the experience with you and anything I've learned about them to date.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are delusional! I own 2 TC 50 cal percussion Hawkens, 1 TC 50 flint Hawken and a TC 32 Cal cherokee........I am not, and never have been tempted to use ANY of them during modern firearms season.......and I believe I am in the vast majority!!

Your little group of traditionalists may choose to use their muzzleloaders during rifle season, but you are the minority and don't represent the mainstream........

See, that's why these kinds of discussions don't occur on the adult level of simply exchanging opinions and views back and forth with one another...you've already crossed the line and are into hurling insults / name calling, etc...instead of simply sharing your view that you see it differently and here's why, etc...have a good evening.

You make a statement that is absolutely false, because you want to believe it......then, when you are called on it you try to back it up with more BS......and then you get offended when someone tells you that you are delusional????

Well, how would you describe a person that is out of touch with reality????

Your comments sure make me appreciate the fact,.... that I'm not part of the "mainstream". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regards!
Spotted Horse (aka) rollingb