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Posts: 461
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Campfire Member
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30-06 or maybe 300 wsm............I went out to the range to shoot last night and really had a good time. The winners were my Kimber 30-06 montana and 300wsm wincheser extreme weather. They where basically a tie at 200 yards but I'll give the handling to the kimber, although I could appreciate the extra weight of the winny if I had just climbed to a ridge and had to get off a shot. love both of these rifles but would probably pick the kimber just because of chambering. The 7mmrem mag did a nice job over the years but I now prefer the 30-06 or bigger.
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Having been in on one of those "brown bear after dark" situations  when I was doing nothing but minding my own business on Admiralty Island,I can say that I was happy I had a 375H&H in my mitts,because rifles shrink in bore size rapidly under those circumstances,and there is great virtue in big holes in the right place.This might be purely psychological,but I'm at least familiar with the emotion....and I'm no horsepower freak.For lots of things,RinB's suggestions sound good to me. It's quite the rush to have your headlamp flash on 3 sets of beady-eyes when your up to your elbows in another animal isn't it?  I don't think bore diameter is the only thing that shrinks in that situation. I have to agree with Kutenay in that in those Northern areas, a .338 fis the bill rather well. For strictly brown bear areas, my choice would be a 375 H&H at a minimum. If nothing else, they make a hell of a lot of noise. Bob Bob, I did not have a headlamp,and the commotions was restricted to jaw snapping,that "chuffing" noise(warning?),and back and forth movement in heavy cover very close to us(30 yards?)....no doubt about what it was because we were on Admiralty Island IIRC.....well after dark,in a mixed cover meadow along one of those little salmon creeks(this one flowing into Chaik Bay(sp?)if I recall. We were just walking out,minding our own business but this bear took exception to us being there at all,and demonstrated...never saw it and we parted company....us backing up slowly toward the stream where it was more open,and the bear eventually ambling off..in the dark,we could not see it back in the hemlocks,and never knew how large it was....this did not matter at all...the "pucker factor" was considerable 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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New Member
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I can name you one GUN, the 223 AR-15, with a .22lr conversion unit. The Eskimos have used the Hornet to take big game, and it's got just half the power of the 223. We shoot at many times as many varmints and small game critters as we do moose, elk or grizzly bears. Bowhunters get inside 40 yds of big game all the time, and at archery type distances, if you can't brain a big animal with a 223, you suck as a rifleman. :-) I see no reason at all to have a "hunting only" rifle,but which sucks for survival or defensive shooting, or for busting up a pack of dogs, when I can have a FINE fighting/shtf rifle that is also a quite acceptable hunting rifle.
Last edited by zeeroc; 01/18/13.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281 |
I can name you one GUN, the 223 AR-15, with a .22lr conversion unit. The Eskimos have used the Hornet to take big game, and it's got just half the power of the 223. We shoot at many times as many varmints and small game critters as we do moose, elk or grizzly bears. Bowhunters get inside 40 yds of big game all the time, and at archery type distances, if you can't brain a big animal with a 223, you suck as a rifleman. :-) I see no reason at all to have a "hunting only" rifle,but which sucks for survival or defensive shooting, or for busting up a pack of dogs, when I can have a FINE fighting/shtf rifle that is also a quite acceptable hunting rifle. That's brilliant.
Last edited by Brad; 01/19/13.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,934
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,934 |
I can name you one GUN, the 223 AR-15, with a .22lr conversion unit. The Eskimos have used the Hornet to take big game, and it's got just half the power of the 223. We shoot at many times as many varmints and small game critters as we do moose, elk or grizzly bears. Bowhunters get inside 40 yds of big game all the time, and at archery type distances, if you can't brain a big animal with a 223, you suck as a rifleman. :-) I see no reason at all to have a "hunting only" rifle,but which sucks for survival or defensive shooting, or for busting up a pack of dogs, when I can have a FINE fighting/shtf rifle that is also a quite acceptable hunting rifle. ![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/NowThatsFunny.gif) ![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/ROFLMAO-smiley.gif)
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 708
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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.300 Win Mag 180 TTSX *from a non expert*
Isaiah 6:8
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,928
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I can name you one GUN, the 223 AR-15, with a .22lr conversion unit. The Eskimos have used the Hornet to take big game, and it's got just half the power of the 223. We shoot at many times as many varmints and small game critters as we do moose, elk or grizzly bears. Bowhunters get inside 40 yds of big game all the time, and at archery type distances, if you can't brain a big animal with a 223, you suck as a rifleman. :-) I see no reason at all to have a "hunting only" rifle,but which sucks for survival or defensive shooting, or for busting up a pack of dogs, when I can have a FINE fighting/shtf rifle that is also a quite acceptable hunting rifle. Yep that's just what I want to do with my big game rifle. Go around "braining" animals because my cartridge doesn't have the muscle to bust a moose, elk, or bear down in his tracks with a shoulder shot. I played with toys as a child. When it comes to big game hunting I like to feel like I have a mans gun in my hands.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,700
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I would use my 338 RUM loaded with 250 gr PT's.
An impressive killer both near and far on big or small animals.
JD338
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I can name you one GUN, the 223 AR-15, with a .22lr conversion unit. The Eskimos have used the Hornet to take big game, and it's got just half the power of the 223. We shoot at many times as many varmints and small game critters as we do moose, elk or grizzly bears. Bowhunters get inside 40 yds of big game all the time, and at archery type distances, if you can't brain a big animal with a 223, you suck as a rifleman. :-) I see no reason at all to have a "hunting only" rifle,but which sucks for survival or defensive shooting, or for busting up a pack of dogs, when I can have a FINE fighting/shtf rifle that is also a quite acceptable hunting rifle. That's brilliant. That's sarcasm. I think...
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,281 |
Yes it is 
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,736
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
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I can name you one GUN, the 223 AR-15, with a .22lr conversion unit. The Eskimos have used the Hornet to take big game, and it's got just half the power of the 223? We shoot at many times as many varmints and small game critters as we do moose, elk or grizzly bears. Bowhunters get inside 40 yds of big game all the time, and at archery type distances, if you can't brain a big animal with a 223, you suck as a rifleman. :-) I see no reason at all to have a "hunting only" rifle,but which sucks for survival or defensive shooting, or for busting up a pack of dogs, when I can have a FINE fighting/shtf rifle that is also a quite acceptable hunting rifle. Can't get a grasp on this mentality. First, how many states allow big game hunting with a .223. Second, how is a "hunting only" rifle place limitations to your survival needs? The truth be known, there are plently of opportunities to use a rifle as a big game hunting tool rather than a survival or defensive tool. We aren't quite the Middle East yet! Thirdly, declaring that your aren't a skilled hunter unless you take "brain shots" is disturbing. Marginal hits possibly allow game to escape to die a slow death. Of course if you are using Zombie ammo, that's another matter............... There is a disconnect here that needs fixing.
Last edited by bigwhoop; 01/22/13.
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 53
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 53 |
I can name you one GUN, the 223 AR-15, with a .22lr conversion unit. The Eskimos have used the Hornet to take big game, and it's got just half the power of the 223. We shoot at many times as many varmints and small game critters as we do moose, elk or grizzly bears. Bowhunters get inside 40 yds of big game all the time, and at archery type distances, if you can't brain a big animal with a 223, you suck as a rifleman. :-) I see no reason at all to have a "hunting only" rifle,but which sucks for survival or defensive shooting, or for busting up a pack of dogs, when I can have a FINE fighting/shtf rifle that is also a quite acceptable hunting rifle. I�ve heard that tired old song for decades and I don�t buy it. I�ve lived and worked in the villages for over thirty years and have never seen such wanton waste of game animals. On the fringes of most villages are countless animals that were gut shot or poorly hit by .223�s and left to rot. Outside of Point Hope in 2008 115 caribou were found rotting on the tundra, shot with .17 and .22 caliber wounds. For political reasons the prosecution was lame at best as they claimed it was their tradition. In Alaskan game units 23 & 26 the bag limit for residences is 5 per day with no closed season (yes, that�s right a bag limit of 1825 caribou per year) and for Alaskan natives at the time it was 15 caribou per day on Federal lands (again, that�s a bag limit of 5475 per year). For village elders (or any other non-hunting members of the community) they could sign over their rights to let someone else hunt by proxy, so some of these guys could have had a bag limit of over 20,000 caribou per year. I�ve known a few (very few) hard core, old school elders that could probably pull things off with a .22 Hornet, but they were the extreme exception not the rule. Before I hear from all you 223 fans, these weren�t marksmen with rifles with custom twists so they could shoot Barnes bullets, but just off the shelf 50-55 grain varmint bullets. Sorry, but I had to put that to rest. We own what we shoot a reasonably clean kill and not a 1 in 10 recovery. They say even brown bears have been killed with .22 long rifle, but try that 100 times tell me how many times it�s been successful.
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,928
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,928 |
I can name you one GUN, the 223 AR-15, with a .22lr conversion unit. The Eskimos have used the Hornet to take big game, and it's got just half the power of the 223. We shoot at many times as many varmints and small game critters as we do moose, elk or grizzly bears. Bowhunters get inside 40 yds of big game all the time, and at archery type distances, if you can't brain a big animal with a 223, you suck as a rifleman. :-) I see no reason at all to have a "hunting only" rifle,but which sucks for survival or defensive shooting, or for busting up a pack of dogs, when I can have a FINE fighting/shtf rifle that is also a quite acceptable hunting rifle. I�ve heard that tired old song for decades and I don�t buy it. I�ve lived and worked in the villages for over thirty years and have never seen such wanton waste of game animals. On the fringes of most villages are countless animals that were gut shot or poorly hit by .223�s and left to rot. Outside of Point Hope in 2008 115 caribou were found rotting on the tundra, shot with .17 and .22 caliber wounds. For political reasons the prosecution was lame at best as they claimed it was their tradition. In Alaskan game units 23 & 26 the bag limit for residences is 5 per day with no closed season (yes, that�s right a bag limit of 1825 caribou per year) and for Alaskan natives at the time it was 15 caribou per day on Federal lands (again, that�s a bag limit of 5475 per year). For village elders (or any other non-hunting members of the community) they could sign over their rights to let someone else hunt by proxy, so some of these guys could have had a bag limit of over 20,000 caribou per year. I�ve known a few (very few) hard core, old school elders that could probably pull things off with a .22 Hornet, but they were the extreme exception not the rule. Before I hear from all you 223 fans, these weren�t marksmen with rifles with custom twists so they could shoot Barnes bullets, but just off the shelf 50-55 grain varmint bullets. Sorry, but I had to put that to rest. We own what we shoot a reasonably clean kill and not a 1 in 10 recovery. They say even brown bears have been killed with .22 long rifle, but try that 100 times tell me how many times it�s been successful. I'm glad somebody in the know posted on this. This comes up on every internet forum I've ever been on. "The eskimos kill polar bears with .222's" or "the Inuits kill moose and Caribou with .22 Hornets". The other one I'm tired of hearing is that WDM "Karamojo Bell" killed 800 Elephants with the 7X57. Guys use this stuff to make their points but they fail to point out that there is more to the story. The above post explains the rest of the story about the Inuits and the rest of the story on WDM Bell is that he was a once in a century game shot. The guy could successfully wingshoot with a .318 WR. When you can shoot like him ( and few throughout history could) a lot of things become possible. A lot of people died trying to do what Karamojo did.
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Posts: 1,582
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,582 |
A Whelen and a good cast bullet setup. And about a ton of lead, powder and caps.
Watch 'Yer Topknot!
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179 |
MM--
YEP, with a little qualifier.
I agree w/your post BUT would add or qualify that I believe & am pretty sure there ARE 'some' (quantity unknown), even who participate here on the 'fire', that CAN & are experienced riflemen enough to kill elephants with the 7X57, using proper bullets.
eg- we have pros who live or have lived in AK or Africa and HAVE hunted/guided for Dangerous Game.
I know there is more to it than living there.
I'd put $$ on 458Win (P S) as being one and there are others.
ps- I am NOT volunteering Mr Phil but I have confidence in him & others here.
Some of us are proficient enough to hit an elephants brain ----
However WHEN a mountain of living muscle, bone, & tusk charges--- the nerves it'd take COULD be something else.
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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30-06 or 300 Win Mag firing a 180 gr projectile.....should fill the freezer ................
Gus
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,928
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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MM--
YEP, with a little qualifier.
I agree w/your post BUT would add or qualify that I believe & am pretty sure there ARE 'some' (quantity unknown), even who participate here on the 'fire', that CAN & are experienced riflemen enough to kill elephants with the 7X57, using proper bullets.
eg- we have pros who live or have lived in AK or Africa and HAVE hunted/guided for Dangerous Game.
I know there is more to it than living there.
I'd put $$ on 458Win (P S) as being one and there are others.
ps- I am NOT volunteering Mr Phil but I have confidence in him & others here.
Some of us are proficient enough to hit an elephants brain ----
However WHEN a mountain of living muscle, bone, & tusk charges--- the nerves it'd take COULD be something else.
I agree plenty of people could do it. But Bell did it 1,200 times and lived. How many alive today could pull it off 1200 times?
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179 |
The other one I'm tired of hearing is that WDM "Karamojo Bell" killed 800 Elephants with the 7X57.
I agree plenty of people could do it. But Bell did it 1,200 times and lived. How many alive today could pull it off 1200 times?
800 or 1200 makes no diff. to me. I'd say that's a LOFTY goal. Today I'm sure that's NOT LEGAL and NOT PROBABLE either. I'd say anyone would be pushing their luck. My point is with PROPER bullets and PROFICIENCY it does not take the LARGEST cal/cart to humanely kill the really big stuff. OTOH - when it can MAUL, EAT, or STOMP you into red jello the largest cal/cart/bullet you can shoot confidently offers SOME added insurance. Remember that I said I agree with your post in general. I don't subscribe to the SMALLEST caliber possible to do any given job. My sig line has said, "If 1/2" rifle length and 4 oz of rifle weight kept me from hunting, I'd take up knitting." The only SA (1) rifle I have is a Rem 700 BDL 243. I also have a 6mm Rem but it's a Rem M6 pump (same length as 270 or 06). I stated this EARLY in this thread and have NOT changed my mind. My ONE rifle - bullet for N A hunting is 300 WM, 180 OR 200 gr NP.
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,681 |
As a point of clarity when Bell shot elephants they were not as pressured by hunters as they are today or put another way, they were not used to being hunted as they are today which is why Bell often shot from a ladder in close proximity to herds. Also, while he shot many with the 7x57 he also shot a good deal of them with the 318 WR which is represented quite well today by the 338-06 with a measly 250 grain bullet slogging along at about 2400 fps.
Perhaps then we should enter the 338-06 into the equation with a 250 grain bullet of good construction as an all-round combo for NA.
The way life should be.
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