Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles 22 Hornet case head separation

I need some feed back about a Savage 23B THAT'S GIVING ME FITS.

I've had 4 once-fired cases (out of 50+/-) separate. Here are my specs;

-Rem factory 45g (2650-2720 fps), no problems except 2.5 MOA at 100yds (1.415" unfired case lengths, +/- .005), then I started to reload for better accuracy.



-new W-W brass, loaded with 35g v-max (2900-3150fps various charges of lil'gun) (1.3975" case length out of the bag, +/- .0025), extraction a little stiff with the fastest loads, but still no accuracy

-once fired w-w brass (1.4075, +/-.0025)

-trimmed all once-fired R-P and W-W to 1.4


...three of my problems were with once fired R-P brass loaded with 35g v-max to around 2900fps. last one was once-fired w-w brass loaded with 40g sierra at 2950

Question:
-Am I trimming the brass too short at .005 under fireformed?
-It's obvious running at 3000fps is too fast for this old gun, but now I'm gun-shy of all my once-fired brass, no matter what brand or speed.

1. It has nothing to do with the length of your brass.

2. If extraction is difficult, the pressure is too high which is probably your problem.

3. Excess head space can predispose to head separations. Besides decreasing your load, sizing the cases minimally so they just fit the chamber of your rifle would probably help.

ah, the problems with the hornet. i believe the hornet got its reputation when we all were more ignorant. i have worked with many standard and k hornets over the years and have formed oppinions on it.

hornet brass is thin and the rim thickness varies quite a bit. i've had new cases split on the first firing especially if forming to k hornet. being thin it work hardens quick and the rim thickness introduces headspace issues.

after the first firig if you just neck size and let the case headspace on its slope it sometimes help as grumulkin points out.

i beleive the biggest problem with reloading the hornet is its basic design and the poor brass quality that we get from our manufacturers.

i once got some sako brass from a fellow in the midwest and it was headstamped SAKO. it was strong uniform and lasted a long time.

Jeff, I assume you have a 23D (if it's really a 23B, no wonder there are problems...).

Some of these have excessive headspace due to firing 'way too hot handloads; 23s can really only handle factory pressures over time. One fix I have heard of, assuming that this is the problem, is putting a shim stock steel "washer" between the two parts of the two piece bolt to compensate for the stretched headspace. I have never actually done this, but I imagine I got the idea from Frank de Haas' books, perhaps his "Bolt Action Rifles."

You should have a gunsmith check for excessive headspace and then, if that's the problem, ask about this "shim" fix over on the "Savage Collectors" forum. Somebody over there will probably know more about it.

Good luck; a 23D is worth fixin'!

Thanks Gentlemen,
Makes me wonder how the Hornet hangs on!
Any chance that Sako brass is RWS? (at $35/20 unprimed cases for RWS, it might be cheaper to just use W-W once and throw it in the recylcling bin).
Thanks for sharing your experience.

how does the hornet hang on? it made its reputation when things were done differently and the body of handloaders were looked upon as a bit mystical. who actually made the brass i had is anybody's guess but it worked for a long time.

i have purchased several hundred cases from the same lot, weighed each one and came up with a good size pile of ones that weighed exactly the same. i then measured the rim thickness and the pile went down.

i took the cases that to the best to my ability were exactly alike and pampered them as a lot. used with moderate loads i had some split in the sloping shoulder area back to the base and some didn't on the first firing. i found that the first firing is when i usually lose the cases as i just resize them enough to chamber when i reload.

You may have a .223 bore size. Older hornets have them. You should try some .223 diameter bullets to see if your problem goes away. I have some if you need some to try. Mark.

Jeff, my 23D has a verrry generous chamber. The difference between a fired case and a full length resized case is obvious at a glance when side by side. I haven't had case failures but went to neck sizing almost immediately so no stretching/shrinking cycles that redistribute and harden brass. And it just worked better in terms of accuracy. It's been a while but if I recall correctly some cases have been fired about ten times. I have had no problems when approaching max powder charges.

Compare a fired case with a new/resized case and see what you think.

doo check the bore. i have a win 1885 with 223 bore and shoot 224 bullets with a reduced powder charge. serria makes a 40 gr 223 dia bullet.

I shoot .224 diameter bullets in my 23D but it was a long production run.I haven't researched the rifle enough to say all barrels were bored the same. The 40 grain V-Max work great, the 35 grainers too.

Lilgun powder, according to Hodgdon, produces about 30-35,000psi, which is well below the 42,000psi that H110/W296 or IMR4227 produce.

I have used Lilgun powder and a Lee Collet Die for maybe 18+ years in my Ruger M77 Hornet (not the 'K'). I have not had a case seperate since I went to this combo, and have over a dozen loadings with both Win and RP brass.

When I used a full length sizer and IMR4227, I had a few cases come apart.

I've only had four Hornets (a carbine barrel for a T/C Contender, a Riger No. 1B and No. 3, and a CZ) snd the only one I had any case separation problems with was the T/C carbine and powders other than Li'l Gun. I dunno how many times I've fired some cases in the 1B'c chamber and they're still going strong.

Well it sounds like I might be dealing with too much headspace on my Savage, I'll dig it out of the trash barrel and check it, and I'll try a neck die instead of FL sizing.

Thanks for all the feedback!
Jeff

As stated here, neck sizing should help your casehead seperation problem.

Just back off your full length sizer die, about a half turn.

Try a case in your rifle. If the bolt won't close, adjust down untill it will.

Had a Hornet case seperation a while back, with the top of the case stuck in my die.

Was a "challange" to get it out!

Virgil B.

Jeff: I also shoot a Model 23D Hornet. I have cases seperate in front of the web too. Can't tell you how many loads I get out of each case, as I haven't kept those records over the years. I just carry a pistol rod with me, with a 30 cal bore brush to facilitate removal. I am shooting 13 Grains of Lil Gun, and a 35 grain V-Max. As others have mentioned, my 23'S chamber may be a little large, as I also have a Model 43 Winchester in Hornet, and the neck sized Savage cartridges, will not easily chamber in the 43. They may be a little particular as to their favorite load, but once you find IT, they shoot well. BTW, FYI Savage 23'S were as follows. 23A-AA 22LR, 23B 25-20, 23C 32-20 and 23 D Hornet. Fun to collect them as well.

Regards

Jerry

Another 23D owner/reloader here; mine's from the late 1930's and uses .224 bullets and also has a chamber a bit on the generous side... So it's neck size only; keep an eye on the brass and don't hot-rod it too much. When the 23D was in production Hornet handloaders were scarce so the I think the factory didn't care if the chamber was slightly large. At least then they would chamber just about any Hornet cartridge easily with no headspace concerns 'cause they headspace on the rim. I've only had one head seperation and that was when I first started reloading Hornets in the late 90's and was unaware of all this.

I shoot a Sav 219 and I use a 218 Bee die to partialy size the 22H neck and have had no problems and produces very tight groups.