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Tophet1, that makes the most sense out of most anything I've read or seen posted here. Thank you sir! You mentioned the the OP (me) "read" things on the subject. That's why I posted here, wanting real world answers and not a load of BS. The only thing I can remotely relate to is aoudad sheep. I've killed a whole bunch of 'em with a 7-08 and corelokts. IIRC aoudad are African animals..........


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JJ; please look at this. A couple of years ago while in the Limpopo a pair of gemsbok loped by and the PH said something to the effect of good game. Being old and half deaf I thought he said to take that one. The TSX broke the humerus on the near side and the scapula on the off side, got deep into the brisket and lower chest. Critter went about 300yd with a sprinkly blood trail I could even follow. The gemsbok must have ben i stride change and got both legs lineup. It was still able to ,move off with only muscles "slinging" its front end off the ground. It was standing when we caught up, but all the steam was gone. That was a lot of life force.


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Exactly, they do not leave the heard and will run dead on their feet a long way.

Compare to lone species that will run a bit and lay down to hide, no buddies leaving them behind. No reason to run endlessly.

The other issue with gemsbok is that they take flight for no logical reason and the group will run and continue to run until some barrier or landscape diversion stops them, or until the all seem to forget why they began running in the first place.

Gemsbok are not the sharpest tack in the drawer, they depend on a lightening fast getaway with unsurpassed endurance to increase the gap from danger.

Wound one or make a marginal but lethal hit. You will be walking that trail for a very long time, over a very likely great distance!


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Originally Posted by Tophet1
I would propose the sources of this myth are:

1) The afore mentioned publications looking to sell magazines through hunting culture.
2) Asset rich/time poor (city folk) 'hunters' who are unfamiliar with game anatomy and their firearms and make poor shots, therefore the animals must be tougher..
3) Astute marketers of 'product'.
4) The big ego/small dick brigade who want to turn nothing into somthing.
5) Consumers of marketing who have new, larger firearms than they need/can handle properly.
6) Unfamiliarity with the larger African animals, than the animals they are used to at home.

I read with interest that a few posters have made the same observations as myself.

1) Some animals do have 'the vitals' a little more forward than I was used to.
2) This is not rocket science.
3) The Kudu is a pit of a 'softy' when it comes to taking damage.



The days when hunters pitched up with gear they feel uncomfortable using would be about long gone by now.

There are so few hunters who arrive unfamiliar with their rifles and/or gear that about the only thing we need to do is to sight the rifle. Forums like this one are a tremendous resource and a wealth of information with some hunters spending more than 13 months researching their stuff before arriving. Heck, you are better informed by the time you get here than we are. And you mostly shoot like kings. The odd hunter misses, but who has not missed in his life?

Our animals are not bullet proof or immune to lead poisoning. Hit it in the correct spot (read: The Perfect Shot) with premium ammunition and you will have a trophy.

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Originally Posted by Tophet1

1) The afore mentioned publications looking to sell magazines through hunting culture.
2) Asset rich/time poor (city folk) 'hunters' who are unfamiliar with game anatomy and their firearms and make poor shots, therefore the animals must be tougher..
3) Astute marketers of 'product'.
4) The big ego/small dick brigade who want to turn nothing into somthing.
5) Consumers of marketing who have new, larger firearms than they need/can handle properly.
6) Unfamiliarity with the larger African animals, than the animals they are used to at home.



I'd reckon some of these are probably myths too, however you only need one bloke with a pen or Video camera to experience/observe/hear about them once and they become perpetuated fact.

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With the caveat that I've never been,I guess you can't blame a guy for asking about African game toughness if he was raised on a gunwriter culture of Elmer Keith types whacking running game too far back with long 333 Kynoch bullets that came apart like confetti;animals that ran and ran and ran....gave the poor guys back here the impression that great big cartridges and bullets were required.For a guy who'd been on very few safaris, Keith gave an awful lot of African hunting advise.

Then,we still had writers like JOC and others who used 30/06's,270's and 7x57's,280's...reasonable stuff and killed animals "dead", but got shouted down by Big Bore advocates in print,and truth got lost in the din.

Today thankfully we have guys like Johnny B and JJ Hack to give us straight scoop...plus bullets are a whole lot better.Like Peter posted above the amatuers get better information and advise today.Nice to get sound counsel from people who have BTDT.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I havent read the whole thread but I can guess the contents.... Use your favorite cartridge, a premium bullet, and aim a bit farther forward on the animal than you are used to, and you will fill an ark...


"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Originally Posted by JJHACK
Although this is certainly not a scientific or legal description, I have seen some differences that I think do stand up, or at least justify some further thought. You only need to do this job for a few weeks and listen to the comments made by the hunters with you. I won�t type dozens of them here now, but common statements like this from my hunters for example: �I�ve killed a lot of big game but I�ve never seen an animal hit that hard stagger begin to fall and then run off requiring several hours to track up and still need another shot.�

For starters, many of the animals in Africa live in herds. This is a significant difference then the big game hunted in North America. Far fewer are hunted in large herds . When a single herd animal spooks and runs so will the whole herd at the same instant. They don't perk up to see if it's the idiot of the group that is just being stupid again, they trust even the most insecure and jumpy member of the herd when it spooks. This results in the whole group bolting through the bush to crash through branches and trees somewhat blindly.

Would anyone debate the will to live difference and resentment for being shot between a cape buffalo and a North American Bison? I've seen some rather unruly and wild bison, but they are the exception, buffalo on the other hand are almost all living on the edge! Take for example wildebeest, zebra, and gemsbok. These are arguably the tougher PG species to flatten. They are also the tougher ones to stop once hit and running off. These animals have very thick rubber like skin. It's far more elastic then an Elk, Deer, Bear, sheep, etc. This puncture resistant stretchy hide will seal up holes and stop the blood flow with extreme precision. A Deer or Pronghorn will have explosive exits from a typical hunting rifle, yet similiar sized game in Africa may fall and require you to look for several seconds to even find the entry or exit holes. Same with the Kudu, they are very soft and much like the construction of a typical Whitetail deer, just much larger in size. You can see the bullet holes in them very easily.

Why is that? In my opinion it's due to the kinds of trees, and the habit of running blind with the herd. The dozens of species of almost lethal thorn trees, and the frequency of these herd animals crashing through the bush may have caused them over 1000's of years to develop this type of skin that will seal up punctures, or be more resistive of punctures. Giraffe is clearly designed this way. Once you have skinned the chest of a Giraffe and seen that 3-4" thick "cartilage like" skin with Acacia thorns embedded into it you can see why.

There is a desire stronger then life itself for many of these herd animals. They can never be left behind of the group when it gets spooked and runs. Compare this to the soft, and quite fragile Kudu. An animal so large, yet so easy to kill, and very little will to live. Kudu have very soft skin, and are built very frail when compared to the herd animals.

A Kudu, is very much like a whitetail deer. They will carefully pick and choose the path through the bush, often not making much noise. They can also vanish like a ghost, leaping and turning to avoid any contact with the bush. Compare that to the wildebeest which will crash through everything in the way letting you hear them depart for a 100 yards until out of earshot! Is it simply coincidence that the crashing herd mentality of the wildebeest makes it so much harder to drop and follow up then the soft lone fragile pick the path Kudu bull? I think not.

There are always comments about African game being harder to kill. Maybe that's not 100% true, however they are absolutely harder to find dead. Finding a single elk, deer, bear, or sheep is a much less difficult undertaking then finding an equally hit African animal that lives in a large herd. As I was taught in PH academy, read the whole page not just the first word. There is much more to this puzzle then simply saying African game is tougher then North American game. A poorly hit lone Bull elk is a tough animal that can travel a long way.

They also live in a habitat with so much natural ground litter and rock that follow ups using only tracks can be very complicated. Mountain goats and moose are also quite difficult to make die and drop quickly. However when shot your looking for a single animal, not a massive herd that has created a dust bowl and left the scene with all the tracking evidence covered in dust and sand. With the dozens if not thousands of tracks to follow how do you know which animal you shot?� Has he peeled off from the group as he became sick and you have tracked right past him and followed the herd?

Once you find the herd you scan with your field glasses for an hour looking them over for blood, nothing found? Hours have now gone by. Your animal is either in the group, or you have passed it by and need to start over. If this happens at last light will you have much of a trophy remaining in the morning? In North America the population of predators is greatly reduced. Odds are fair or better that if you find the animal the next day it will be fine. In Africa with a low temp of 75 degrees at night, will it will be hair slipped, and with the massive populations of predators, odds are low it will be in one piece.

Just a blanket statement here is not realistic. There are some very tough species in both places. However having hunted for my living in both places, and seen quite a number of animals harvested in both places....... Well I've struggled more to find well hit game in Africa, then I have in North America. There are however lots more species there as well. The debate will never be apples and apples, it would be better to just pick a specific animal you�re interested in comparing them. With the diverse species, distances, dangerous game, and of course the blood tracking that will be needed, the larger bore cartridges stack the deck in your favor by a large margin.

Those under .308 diameter will require the greatest time consumed in follow ups, and the greatest risks for lost game. With a 7-14 day hunt, you sure don�t want to be spending any more time then needed on tracking and follow up. This is especially true when hunting two on one. If your partner is searching for lost game, you�re not hunting either! Plenty of folks make the mistake of comparing cartridges used in North America for hunting with what they perceive the needs in Africa to be. I wish I had some recorded statements from the hundred or so people who have said to me. �Wow you were right about the conditions and the choice of the gun� I�m not special in this regard, just observant.

We have seen the struggles and the success for many years. It just comes from experience. I�ve not known a single PH in my whole career that sees this any differently. Bigger bullets make finding game not only easier but possible in very poor conditions. Higher Velocity bullets crumple game faster with body shots then slower bullets. There are without question exceptions to these comments, but by and large these are rules to live by with hunting bullets. When you have big diameter and high velocity you have a magic wand of death. Probably why cartridges like the 375HH have been around so long with such an amazing history of success.


Thanks for posting this-- this really says it all.


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I go in late May with my old 30.06 and 180 grain Nosler Partitions and feel VERY adequately armed. This will be my 4th time so I do have some experience. Others may feel differently but for Plains game, it is totally adequate.

Oh yeah, one exception. Eland. Those buggers are Alaskan Moose sized and like Moose, take some killing. Only African game I shot more than once and it took 3 hits from a 300 Mag to decide to lay down. I would shoot one with a 30.06 but would be very careful of shot placement. JMHO YMMV


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I basically agree with what JJ Hack says. But I think there's another factor or two.

Until recent years, most safari-goers had more money than skill. They read about how "tough" the game was and decided they needed a larger rifle. So they bought some big bore and could not shoot it very well without flinching. Result: Gut shots. See? "Even the big magnum didn't kill the game cleanly."

Second, if you refer to "The Perfect Shot," you will notice that certain game like Wildebeeste and Gemsbok has the vitals lower in the chest than North American game. Shoot it in the middle of the chest and you might not hit anything except maybe the spinal processes.

My experience is that African plains game is no tougher to kill--vs. to track or find--than any similar sized stuff. That goes for Wildebeeste and Zebra too.


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I've posted this before, but it is pertinant to this thread. A cull Gemsbok I shot with a .308 and 165 Woodleigh at approx 50 metres. 'Advertisement perfect' projectile under the skin on the off side. It took out the top of the heart and shows accurate shot placement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiD5aoNAfTI&list=UUUbv5HhzasB1q9VGM5-Jvfg&index=14
You need to turn up the sound.


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Of this I am certain.....the farther one travels for his quarry, the tougher it gets!

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Originally Posted by vapodog
Of this I am certain.....the farther one travels for his quarry, the tougher it gets!


I'd add to that..'the larger the trophy fee'. wink

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Very educational post, thank you for taking time to share your knowledge and experiences! I may never fire a gun in Africa but I never tire of reading hunting related stories and adventures there.

I remember since I was a kid decades ago reading that the 375HH was the, or at the very least, one of the short list calibers of choice there and wondering what it was like to fire that gun with all that horsepower?

On the other hand, with a cape buffalo staring you down and about to charge, I am sure the adrenaline is on full boil and the kick of a rifle is among the last things on your mind. A guide in Alaska once said, " would you rather endure the kick of a big bore or being mauled to death by a grizzly?" That pretty much said it all!

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The 375HH does not have what I would classify as a lot of recoil. It's a powerful shove like a 12 guage 3" mag.

It is not the sharp spear like jab of a 300, 340, 378, weatherby. Nor is it the direct pounding impact of the 458 Lott and 500 Jeffery.

I've stated before in this forum many times, the 375HH is the highest value in killing power you can get for the investment you make in the recoil. There is not another cartridge I have ever used or shot that provides such astonishing power for the effort to shoot it. I've had a 5'2" 110lb woman use mine to shoot quite a few animals including a giant old white rhino, and an elephant.

Nobody should fear that cartridge's recoil.


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Well said. When I bought my first .375 years ago I was astounded by how mild it was to shoot. I honestly would rather shoot a .375 than a .300 or .338 and it kills out of all proportion to what you think it would. A lot of people say it is overpowered for North America but I don't agree, I think it is the best moose and elk cartridge on the planet and though I have never hunted the big bears but it would have to be great for them as well.


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I took my 375 to Zim last yr.
My first trip, 10 days for buffalo
Ph asked me to cull a bull that had
a snare wound on day 4.
2 shots and stone dead.
The next day we got into 5 bulls and
I double lunged the biggest bull, he went
800 yards and lived another 30 mins.
We found him dead where he had doubled back
and was watching "the backtrail"
My short experince is probably average.
Never felt under gunned

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I just finished re-reading Green Hills as well the The Short and Happy Life of Francis McComber(actually had to force myself as I find Hemingway impossible to read) as well as watched the movie and found it rather amusing the rifle/caliber combo used for most of the hunt was what I know for a fact to be a Sedgley 3006. From buffalo on down. The only time a double was used was on a lion charge. Solids too.. Interesting anyway. jorge


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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