Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats .450 Marlin vs. .458x2" in a bolt action

I'm toying with the idea of building a .450 Marlin or a .458x2" on a short magnum Remington 700 I have laying around.

.450 Marlin

pros: - Cheaper dies (RCBS $56)
- probably cheaper and easier to find reamer and gauges
- brass available w/o modification

cons: - brass although available are not very common and are expensive
- availability of brass in the future

.458x2"

pros: - brass can be made from any magnum case
- cheap brass
- cool factor of a wildcat

cons: - expensive dies (RCBS $170)
- reamer and gauges probably not as easy to find
- brass needs to be modified

With both having the same ballistic I'm leaning towards the .450 Marlin despite the brass factor. Am I missing anything? Which one would you choose?

I would go the 458 x 2 American route, as brass is cheap and available which will offset the die price . Ammunition can be made from most .375 H&H Magnum cases including the .458 Winchester Magnum. Dies are available from RCBS and chamber reamers from H&M Tool Company. Look at using a 350gr Spire Point bullet like a Barnes TSX.

I like the 450 Marlin better.

The cartridge is 1/10 of an inch longer, and the brass is ready made. If you look into the 458 x 2 you will find out that you need to neck ream the brass to get it thin enough to use. Major pain. Use the powder and magazine length of 2.8 inches.

There was a good article in an old Gun World gunsmithing book about making and shooting the 458 x 2. I migh still have it somewhere. Tommy Bish if I remember correctly.

I too am considering building the 458x2. I setup a poll on CGN for the guys who shoot it, and all but one said no neck reaming required... That was my biggest worry. As for dies, I don't see why you couldn't use 450 marlin dies to load the 458x2. Everyone who chambers will have the gauges, as they are about as common as they come (standard belted mag). Reamers can be had for either cartridge without issue. While you can buy 450 brass now, the writing is on the wall and once it's gone there is no parent case to form more from (that I am aware of).

My vote is for the 458x2

I have a 458 American in a Remington 660. The gun is set up with peep sights and used for black bear and hogs.
I use Federal 300 Win Mag brass cut & trimmed back. I do not have to ream the necks with this brass. I use RCBS 458 American dies for loading. My favorite bullet is Speer's 350 grain bullet.

I have used the 458x2 for years. Ive had a couple built on 98 Mausers. Ive never had to neck ream. My dies are CH 4D. Dont over look them for your die options. Well made dies, small company and lots of options. The Marlin is a factory round with factory brass but for me its no big deal with how easy it is to make the 2". Good luck with your project.

I'm swaying back towards the .458x2"!

Yes, Steve; You are missing something! The very reason the .450 Marlin was invented to begin with. The problem with the .458x2 is that cartridge will potentially chamber in a .264 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag, .300... etc. And as the belted magnum cartridge headspaces on the belt, they, at least potentially will fire... With disasterous results, predictably... The .450 Marlin, due to its extra wide belt, will not!

The potential problem is: Even if you keep the rifle 'til your death, eventually it will fall into someone else's hands. They MAY chamber your leftover ammo in whatever rifle the headstamp bears... NOT a good scenario... That person may be your son, or grandson...

I have both, and I have every intention of returning my .458x2 to it's original chambering; .350 Rem Mag.

My $.02, FWIW...

I didn't miss that. I am aware of the wider belt on the .450 Marlin and the reason for it. I still think it is highly unprobable that someone would mistake a .458x2" cartridge for a .264 Win Mag and try to chamber it in his rifle. One could always only use .458 Win Mag brass if makes him sleep better at night.

Hey double gun, your poll brough back the idea of the .458x2". Good point on the gauges kind of forgot that it headspace on the belt so any belted mag gauge would work.

Re-reading JB's article on his 9.3BS and how he switches the barrel back and forth with the original 7mm SAUM barrel also got me thinking that I should do the same with my 7mm SAUM.

Here's a pic of my Rem. 660 in 458 American. It is a very handy rifle with the peep sights. However I have been thinking of have a forward scope mount made so I could use a scout scope and still get to keep the peep sight set-up.
I think only a Darwin award candidate would put a 458 diameter round in a 6.5 hole. Also if the case designation bothers you that much, Qual-Cart makes 458 American labeled brass.
Good luck with your project.

Do you have a hidden second recoil lug? No stock splits? Barrel make and contour?

Good bedding will cure many of those woes.

bigJ....Not sure on contour, but the barrel is a Douglas and it does have a second hidden recoil lug. The action through the second lug are bedded, past that it is free floated. There have been no stock issues. It also has a metal trigger guard. I can take a picture of the second recoil lug if that will help.

With a bullet seated, I don't think a 458x2 will fit into a 264 or 7mm Mag. Might go into a 300 Weatherby or STW.
I had a 450 marlin reamer modified to use the standard magnum headspacing (.220")and it worked out fine. If a person wanted the Marlin headspacing, it could be done with a boring bar. GD

I would love that, if you have one on hand - I dont expect you to pull it apart for a pics though.

Greydog, could you please explain what they "altered" on the 450marlin reamer. Couldnt a guy use an unaltered 450 marlin reamer, but standard magnum gauges? I thought the only real difference was the belt length... (but I dont have the cartridge drawings in front of me so I could be wrong)

Double lugged barrel.

Thank you very much for the pic. That is nice and neat... If I build I will need to copy that.

Why the double recoil lug? A lot of cartridge kick more than the .458x2" and only have one recoil lug.

Insurance. I think the 458x2 should be built fairly light and handy, which makes for snappy recoil. It's easy enough to add a second lug when building the rifle, fixed cracked stocks are always ugly.

I had one on the 600 action as well but I did find that I had to ream necks with most rimmed brass. I made most of mine out of 458 Win mag brass. The ones that I tried to make with 7mm mag and 300 win brass all had to be reamed because the brass was too thick.

BigJ,
Altered the portion of the reamer which cuts the belt recess. I could have simply run the unaltered reamer in short but that would have resulted in a reduced over-all chamber length. What difference this would have really made, in the big picture, I can't really say but this was done at a customer's request and he seemed to think having the full chamber length was important. What I actually chambered was, essentially, a 458x2.1". I, as the gunsmith, was just doing what I was told! As I said, I could still cut the standard Marlin chamber if I wished to do so. At this point, I feel confident in stating I will never build another 450 Marlin or a 458x2" so none of this matters! In the unlikely event that I should change my mind, I'll just run a 458 Winchester reamer in short and cut the belt recess with a boring bar. GD

Good info, thanks Greydog. I thought it was the other way around. I thought the 450 marlin was actually slightly longer ahead of the belt than the 458x2. That's why I was thinking just run it in short using standard gauges, and have a slightly long chamber.

We are coming up on the Sesquicentennial of the introduction of the 45 Gov't, or 45 x 2.1 inch in Sharps lingo. If this new 450 Marlin is the heir apparent, then sooner or later, the factories are going to stop loading for the ancient 45-70 G. This will happen in small steps, but only the weakest bullet designs will be left.

At the same time, robust 45 Magnum pistols are burgeoning, with their .451 diameter barrels. As I suggested on another forum, why not just make a 2 inch or shorter 450 Marlin wildcat, in the pistol barrel's .451" dimension. This would keep the factory .458 cal. ammo out. The rims on the old 45 Gov't rounds, will keep them out too.

There is already a .500 cal. Alaskan, made for precisely the same reasons. In Marlin Lever actions, the .500 S&W Magnum bullets are out shining the old .510 diameter 50-70G. ones.

And best of all, this fifty cal. renaissance came gift wrapped by no less than the BATFX bureaucrats, themselves. It was their getting too snotty after IMI went to segmental rifling for the 50 Desert Eagle, which was actually a .510 cal. development. When their test rods slipped down into the improved barrels' segmental riflings, they threw a fit, and the unintended consequences gave birth to this whole new, and I might add, unexpected .500 pistol caliber.

Then S & W came along and took up the mantle with the S&W 500 Magnums and this marauding stallion was out of the barn, for good. With the newer 460 S&W Magnums, made for the aforementioned 500 S&W X Frame Revolvers, its kind of like a second coming for the BATFX's unintended .500 caliber's consequences.

I.O.W.'s the U.S. market place, and S&W, in particular, are going to s@#$w them over twice, for their faux pas, with the Iraeli Military Industries, imported Desert Eagles.

The fly in the ointment here, is the 458 x 2 inch. This can be accidentally loaded into both a factory 450 Marlin, and my suggested .451 Marlin Short, if its also as long as 2 inches. If it's only 1.8 inches, then this fly departs. But there will remain a chambering Delta problem with the factory 450 Marlins, especially in a bolt action, with a claw style of extractor. Shooting a .451 MarSh in a factory chamber may not be accurate, but unless it's loaded with really high pressures, no problemo.

But for safety's sake, I think that the 450 Marlin has killed off the 458 x 2 inch, (American). Of course the 458 Win. Mag. is way too long to accidentally chamber in a 450 Marlin. So that boomer will continue to rumble along.

I have an older set of RCBS reloading dies stamped for the 45-70. The sizing die also has the std. belt recess, needed by the 458 American. I reload for my 45-70 Guide Gun with these old dies, so the 458 American dies still do have a mission.

I wouldn't bet the farm on that happening.

IMHO, the .45-70 G will outlast the .450 Marlin, that is if one or the other goes away.

DF

BigJ,
I think I've managed to confuse the issue. The customer wanted a 450 Marlin but wanted to use standard magnum brass so he wanted it to headspace at .220" but wanted the 2.1" chamber. For a 458 American with a 450 reamer one could indeed just run it in short and end up with a slightly long chamber or run it in 2" and cut the belt recess separately. GD

Thanks again Greydog, makes sense.

Dirt farmer I think we are one seven figure lawsuit away from any "improved velocity" 45-70G. My high velocity factory fodder view runs to the 450 Marlin, over, say the 457 WWG Magnum. Buffalo Bore has some awesome 450 Marlin custom loads on their page. They also have Starline Brass 45-70's with a little higher velocities, due to their slightly larger volumes. I just think that the 450 Marlin is a little more idiot proof.

I understand that my Marlin Guide Gun has to have the bottom round in the magazine tilted towards the loading gate. This induces a problem with certain bullet meplate designs. I don't know if the belted rimless cases in the 450 Marlin also have to be "influenced" towards the Marlin's loading gate.

If I didn't make it plain, my earlier post is for chambering a .451 pistol dimensioned barrel in a bolt action rifle, with a box magazine. The 458 American was made for bolt actions at much higher pressures than the Marlin Levers will handle. While I have shot 350 gr. Hornady RN's out of my Guide Gun, I never put more than one in the magazine tube. This was only a two shot proposition. And at that, the middle knuckles on my left hand stung for over a week. I had a few left over from loading for a much heavier Italian Rolling Block, with a half oct. barrel. On that 45-70, it was my left shoulder which got bit bad by the brass crescent butt plate. That's why I still had a few of them for over twenty years. I think I still have one or two, just to remember how much fun they really were.

I think a 300 gr. Jacketed Freedom Arms bullet, made for the 454 Casul, would be an ideal big game bullet for a 1.9 inch long .451 x 450 Marlin Short. In a bolt action, any round nosed 45 Auto bullet will work, at lower velocity, of course.

At the very bottom, I have a Lee .450 hollow point conical mold, made for the 1858 Remington C&B's. This spells tremendous flexibility, using Trail Boss powder. But all of this is still just a suggestion. Doing a slightly longer 457 WWG length, 458 American, will get you to the same place, on the heavy end.

As my old RCBS combo dies show, you can reload a 457 WWG length 458 American, with something close to the 457 WWG published starting loads, and then work up from there.

My take is to go short and light, with the necked down .451x450 Marlin case, and go long and heavy, (457WWG), with the trimmed back 458 Win. Magnum case.

These two suggestions will give you tremendous flexibility in a 45 caliber short action bolt rifle, if you are interested.

I liked the idea of a .450 Marlin in a SA bolt gun the first time I heard about it. If I was chosing between the short .458 and the .450 Marlin in a bolt gun, I'd probably lean toward the .450 Marlin. Cases are good quality and I wouldn't have to spend time with case prep. And, theoretically, the wider belt would have a perceived safety dividend over the std. mag case converted to the short round.

IMHO,

DF

I agree %100 with you, it should be the easy choice. The only issue, and it's a big one, is that Hornady is the only company who makes .450 Marlin brass.

Marlin dropped their own .450 Marlin. The only two other rifles that I'm aware that are chambered in the .450 are the Browning BLR and the Steyr Big Bore. I'm not even sure if they both are still available. The only big company that loads the .450 Marlin is Hornady. All this makes getting .450 Marlin brass in the near future iffy and expensive. The beauty of the .458x2" is that you can take any range pickup magnum brass and chop them at the 2" mark and you now have .458x2" brass. I'm still on the fence but it does make the .458x2" attractive.

Not what yer askin, but I'd go 45-70 on a Siamese Mauser action and drop her into a syn stock.

Gunner

Gunner,

That's the proven, time tested solution, for sure.

I didn't mention that because the OP didn't put it on the table for discussion, but you are absolutely correct, IMHO.

DF

I see your point, to avoid being a slave to one companies marketing quirks.

That sorta goes against an earlier poster postulating that the .450 would prevail in the 45-70/.450 competition. And, of course, I took issue with that idea.

I just don't like a lotta case prep. If I was going to build a .450, I'd squirrel away a lifetime cache of brass and not give it second thought. Hornady brass is very good in my experience, although I've never worked with the .450 round.

As a disclaimer, I currently own six 45-70's of various types, not one .450.

DF

Spot on ... the hybrid chamber made by running a 450Marlin reamer in short is what I'd build. Lots of brass as parent for the wildcat, standard 450Marlin dies will work.
Cheers...
Con

You bet DF, I've seen some very nice Siamese Mausers for sale at less than 400 bucks, a couple hundred on a syn stock and he's there.

The 45-70 in a strong action can, IMHO be loaded up right there with the other two, brass is everywhere and loading dies are cheap.

A 525 gr Beartooth Piledriver bullet at 1800 fps will get it all done in spades.

Gunner

I am curious what action type & barrel length are you using to get 1800fps with a 525gr bullet in a 45-70?
I agree the 45-70 is a classic that can do it all and have two lever guns in that caliber, however I opted for a rimless case for my 458 bolt gun.
Thanks
David

40.5 grs of RL-7 with the 525 Beartooth bullet gave 1755 fps in my lowly 26" barreled Marlin Cowboy lever rifle, no high pressure signs and accuracy was top shelf.

A strong action like the Siamese 98 Mauser could exceed that easily.

Gunner

I had a nice custom .450 Marlin built on a Model 7 action and it was a lot of fun to shoot with cast bullets at modest velocities but truthfully (and I'm not all that recoil conscious) I didn't find it much fun to shoot with full-power loads. My favorite load involved 3 round lead balls (don't recall all the details now) but it would typically put all 3 onto a 11" paper plate at 50 yards. The load used 3 cardboard wads - one over the powder and one each between the 2nd and 3rd ball and between the 1st and 2nd.

I had originally built it to take to Africa and use if for leopard from a blind but I wound up taking a ltwt .375 that didn't have nearly as much "noticable" recoil.

The 2 main reason I chose the .450 Marlin over the .458x2 was it's always easier to sell a rifle chambered in a factory cartridge than a wildcat and I like the idea of being able to buy factory ammo.

I hear ya DB, sounds like a fun rig, my Marlin's recoil wasnt that bad at all, with nine rounds on board with 525 gr bullets it was a very nice recoil damper, you could feel the magazine spring working to and fro during firing to dampen the recoil.

Gunner

Please note that I said "Heir Apparent". Of course I'm not selling my Guide Gun in 45-70 to scarf up a 450 Marlin. And only Marlin's 1895's have the tipped cartridge in the mag tube problem. I was trying to say, I didn't know if the 450 tips the same way as the 45-70's.

If this neat round is truly orphaned, plan B would be to set the barrel back, and go with the 458 x 2 inch. Your G.S. could probably treat this just as a deep chambered replacement barrel. But in a bolt action rifle, you could also simply ream the existing chamber out to a 450 x 2.1 inch, 375 Ruger wildcat.

A Newton fanatic in Cody, Wyo., has told me he chronoed a 450 Newton wildcat, made on the trimmed (2.5") Ruger Basic case, at 458 Lott Velocities. So a shorter version at the 2.1" length, will be closer to the 458 Win Mag. than you can get with the 458 x 2 inch (American).

Playing with my own 450 Ruger dummies, I reckon that round nosed bullets are needed to feed out of a Mauser M-98 rifle's box magazine. So its not the end of the world, if Remington-Marlin drops the 450 Marlin 1895's. But a Marlin tech, told my over the phone, that their 450's receivers had a stronger heat treating than their 45-70's. So you can't get a 45-70 rebarreled to the 450 Marlin, by them.

My crystal ball can't determine if either one of these 45's will survive until I hang it up. But the Marlin 1895 in 450 Marlin is the real sleeper, due to the improved heat treating and the magnum rimless bolt face. I still say we're one big lawsuit away from the 45-70G ammunition being relegated to Black Powder trapdoor pressures.

At its one hundredth and fifty year anniversary, it's had its day. The rimmed alternative is the 457 WWG, but that one hasn't set the world on fire, either.

Ive always questioned the wisdom or even the reason why many guys seem to want to push for the absolute max velocity a particular caliber might be capable of allowing.
I own a 450 marlin BLR, and the load I found most accurate is hardly the max velocity possible, its a 405 grain bullet at about 1900fps
if I wanted more than that Ive got a 458 LOTT, but honestly theres not a game animal in north America that a properly placed bullet from the 450 marlin won,t devastate!

A 405 gr. slug pushed at 1,900 fps out of a BLR will kick enough to get one's attention. I, for one, wouldn't want to shoot a hotter load in that gun. And, you're right about it being lethal to most anything we'd encounter here in NA.

DF

I build 8-10 of the 458X2 a year as well as 458X2 1/4" and have never had to neck ream ANY brass to make them work. Perhaps swarf had his done with a super tight neck? I suppose the higher cost of the dies is a consideration but I send my customers to CH4D [Dave Davson] and they are usually an "off the shelf" item well under 100.00. I think this offsets the cost of factory brassthat, right now, has a dreary at best future and is spendy too. I have used about everything from 300 Win Mag to 6.5 Rem Mag with no issues. I feel brass availibility for the Hornady brass may well be a problem--hope I am wrong.
Aloha, Mark

Mark,

Talk about the difference between the .458x2" and the .458x2 1/4", such as the advantages of one over the other, etc.

What actions are most commonly used in these builds?

DF