Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Why the snub nose revolver is the best CC tool.

To open the discussion I will provide some information from prolific authors on the subject.

J. Henry Fitzgerald from his book Shooting

"Some of the advantages of the 2 inch barrel are: in a scuffle the barrel is so short that the man holding the revolver has far more leverage than the man trying to take it away from him. As an arm to carry in an automobile the barrel is so short that the revolver may be swung either right or left across the steering wheel without striking it.... Sometimes even with new ammunition a defective shell is encountered and then the two inch barrel will help. I have never had a bullet stop in a 2-inch-barrel revolver. It is an undisputed fact that the short barrel is faster on the draw than the long barrel."




Next is Fairburn from his book Shooting to Live

"Let us consider first the case of the detective or plain-clothes man. Here the weapon must be carried or concealed and the wearer must be prepared for the quickest of quick draws and an instantaneous first shot, most probably at very close quarters. For that purpose, our own choice would be a cut-down revolver of heavy caliber..."




Next is The Handgunner's Guide, Including the Art of Quick Draw and Combat Shooting by Chic Gaylord

"Handguns for concealment can be divided into two categories, the 'carry gun' used by off-duty police officers, detectives, and plain-clothes men; and the 'hideout' used by undercover men or, as a secondary emergency weapon, by police officers desiring the insurance of a second gun. No carry gun should be of less than .38 caliber. A .38 Special is even more desireable...."




Next is Col. Rex Applegate in some thoughts towards S&W

"Any revolver so small that it can be covered by an ordinary man's hand, weighing 21 ounces or less and shooting the .38 SPecial cartridge, can hardly be considered as the ideal target weapon. Even though creditable scores can be achieved by using their fixed iron sights against conventional targets, such guns are designed, manufactured and intended for use against targets that can shoot back"




Next is Bill Jordan from his book No Second Place Winner

"These small, light guns (Airweight S&W and Colt Agent/Cobra) have a definite value in plain-clothes work..... Off duty, or when the weather is hot, there is great temptation to conclude that there won't be any trouble anyway and go unarmed rather than either wear a coat or look conspicuous wearing a big gun without the coat to conceal it. That's the time when the little air-weight model, slipped into a trouser pocket, is worth its weight in gold. And for such use, the smallest and lightest gun available, provided it has reasonable power, is best."




Next is Lou Chiodo quoted in Ed Lovette's writings The Snubby Revolver

"It is interesting to note that while gunfighting equipment and training have evolved considerably over the years, the gunfight that is resolved by a handgun today looks no different than its historical predecessors. In its most common form, you will face a single assailant, and you will be alone as well. Your assailant will probably be armed with a handgun but may possibly be armed with a knife or blunt instrument. The distances will usually be less than 10 feet. It will be over very quickly. Reloading is rarely an issue."




Now that I have established a fairly broad lineage of the importance and value of the snub nosed revolvers from a wide range of historical periods, I will expound upon its superiority.

Here are some points on what an ECQ pistol should be from Ed Lovette.
1. The ECQ gun must be extremely reliable. (Simplicity or idiot proof In high stress adrenaline-fueled situations you lose fine motor functions, and the more steps you have to do the more you are likely to mess up.)

2. The gun must be reliable if stored in a pocket (Loose)

3. The handgun should be reliable when fired from unusual positions, like from a coat pocket.

4. The handgun must be reliable if the muzzle is jammed into your assailant.

5. The handgun must be reliable if you cant get the proper grip, or are shooting in weak hand.


The above information ranges from the early 20th century to about present day; not from my opinionated thoughts. These are the thoughts of LEO, FBI, and trained professionals with years of experience.

The dreaded tueller drill! We can't forget the 21 feet rule of an oncoming attacker. (Basically I have a gun, you a knife. Inside of 21 feet I will likely be stabbed, given my draw time and reaction speed against you sprinting at me wife a knife hopped up on adrenaline or PCP.)

Law enforcement of all types used the revolver for the great majority of the 20th century, and for good reason. Revolvers have been issued and carried in World War I, World War II, and Vietnam to name a few.


Here are some pictures of various carry apparatuses.
A S&W pre model 36 'Baby Chief' from 1952-3 and the weight is approx 19.5 ounces.

Baby Chief in a Ryan Grizzle holster. This is my daily strong side pocket gun.





Here is a S&W model 12-2 from 1975 or so and weighs approx 14.5 ounces.

Here it is in another Ryan Grizzle holster. OWB






Here is a Colt Cobra from 1966 it weighs approx 16 ounces


Here it is in the same Ryan Grizzle holster for model 12. This was a recent acquisition, and I've yet to get carry grips and appropriate holster.





Here is a full size Kimber Custom Classic Target which weighs approx 44 ounces loaded.
[img]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b113/rdinak/1911_zpsc006d8ea.jpg[/img]

Here it is in a Milt Sparks (Summer special? I can't remember)
[img]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b113/rdinak/1911-2_zps997e776f.jpg[/img]


Here they all are side by side for a size comparison

[img]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b113/rdinak/All-together_zpsb01b5db6.jpg[/img]




[img]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b113/rdinak/Mags_zps348caef1.jpg[/img]
This is how I reload either system. Yes I carry extra bullets; either in a speed-loader or a speed-strip. (I couldn't find one around the house, and I decided to start writing rather than look.)





As you can see the revolvers are a smaller footprint, and weigh less than half of what a full size 1911 weighs. (I don't have a scale, so I googled pistol weights. The 1911 is weight loaded with 8 rounds, and the revolvers are unloaded. Not quite apples-apples, but close enough for government work) The revolvers can be carried in an ankle holster, pocket holster, IWB, OWB, shoulder rig, or simply loose in a coat pocket (Not my first choice, but for going out to the car, or walking a dog sure.) The 1911 is IWB, OWB, shoulder hoslter, maybe in a coat pocket if you are in a cold climate or have a big coat.


So for me and a myriad of experts the snub nosed revolver is the ideal carry tool.










** I will add some more information to this as time allows this evening. Should have FBI and police stats on number of shots, ballistic information from a mortician, and some other numbers for comparison.

Hope the article is enjoyable.

They are fine for pocket carry,but I would prefer a gun with a larger capacity as a carry gun.

I like revolvers just fine, but simply changing the full sized 1911 to a baby Glock nullifies many of the points...

I cannot argue with the gentlemen you quoted. I carry an XDs in 45acp, but one of my nightstand guns is a snubby .38.

Nice guns.


Travis

For deep CC there is nothing better for me.

well I'll argue with Fitzgerald...If you've ever done handgun take away drills you'll know his statement is flatly incorrect. If you use the right technique, the man holding the gun has about NO chance of keepin the gun in his hand.

George,

I�m a huge fan of small frame revolvers. I don�t think they�re the �best� per-se, but �best� is a very subjective term. The real advantage of the small frame snub nosed revolver is the power they deliver in a truly lightweight and compact size. I love my J frames and I�ve carried them for years, but I have to say that the Colt�s Cobra or Agent (basically a Lightweight Detective Special) is at the top of my list. When I got my Cobra I was a bit bummed that mine had the longer grip frame. But now that I�ve carried it for a while, I�m convinced it�s more of an advantage than a disadvantage, but not for the reason most would think. Most would think it�s for more hand on the gun, but that�s not it. The longer grip really doesn�t detract from the concealability of the gun, but if you drop it into your front pocket, even without a pocket holster, the longer grip keeps it oriented right side up in the pocket; that�s nice.
And the action of the Colt�s is superior to any S&W J frame I�ve ever encountered. I only started gunsmithing Colt�s DA revolvers about 3 years ago, and I�m really impressed with how easy it is to get a truly outstanding DA trigger out of the Colt�s. With very little work, my Cobra has a DA pull about the same as an out of the box Python. I�ve never had a small frame revolver with an action like that. And to top it all off, it has 20% more ammunition capacity. So I really love the Colt!!
Not that I�m getting rid of my S&W anytime soon, nor am I sour on S&W�s at all. My current S&W is a 6 shot J frame in .32 H&R mag; I really like it.
But I carried a S&W 442 for 10 years as a backup gun when I was a bodyguard and I can�t imagine a much better tool for the job.
But today�s sub-compact autos are finally taking us places we�ve never been, and there are some really good choices out there. Still, I�m not getting rid of my J or D frames anytime soon.

One is certainly well armed with one, assuming he can apply it skillfully, and those authors all make reasonable points.

I am quite curious as to the method you might prescribe. Having not heard of or seen something similar, it should be an interesting educational experience.

Purely from mechanical leverage I see a 1 7/8" barrel vs wood/rubber grips as me having more advantage/leverage. Surely an attacker could 'choke' up on the revolver? I think this is more Fitzgeralds point, in that the shooter would have more leverage than an attacker.

Yea if it was 1964 again then the snubbie would be the CC king. But unbeknownst to all the dead authors you quoted, it is 2013. And there are a plethora of excellent CC choices available today. The snubby is far from the best CC weapon today.

The 1964 Pontiac GTO was a fast car in it's day, but today I can kick it's butt with a Honda Civic.

Absolutely correct, KG!!

Again, I am pleased to see that while great minds think alike, apparently ours do, as well.

And we have apparently both taken a few defensive tactics courses...


George, disarm techniques are based on leverage, to some degree, but they're more based on anatomic angles and relationships. It's not the length of the gun barrel that determines ease/difficulty of disarming... it's angles and anatomy.

This is not to say I would argue with any of the other quotes in your OP... rather, I think the arguments are compelling! I think a snub 38 is close to the ideal "hideout" gun.

I would love for you to support your wild thesis with actual documented information from credible and extremely knowledgeable resources. At that point I can have an intelligent discussion with you. Just because the snubby is old, doesn't mean it's broke dick.

Side note a classic GTO is a classic snubby compared to a hideous Honda(glock), devoid of a soul.

Once upon a time I carried a couple of Chief Specials as an off duty gun.
Here is what I found.
They don't hide as well as a full size 1911 or a Browning HP. Inside the waistband, with or w/o a holster, like the so called Calvary Carry method, the full size autos have them beat. The biggest problem I've seen in concealed carry is keeping the thing concealed. Getting made can easily lead to all sorts of very unpleasant experiences.
Don't tell me about hot weather and how tough it is to carry a full size auto pistol. I did it for years. Why ? Because if you ever really need a gun, there is nothing like the confidence that a full size gun with lots of ammo on board brings. Deadly confrontations are very unpleasant, first of all. Second, if they go bad, and, in spite of all your training and good moves, they will, all the help you can get is none too much. Nobody I ever met, who had to deal with the real deal, ever wanted to be involved with such a thing again with any sort of "toy gun." I understand such people exist. That's fine. I'm not one of them.
Drop a wheel gun on a hard surface, like a sidewalk, or even use it as a club, and 50% of the time when picked up, they won't fire. Never saw a big auto put out of action no matter what was done to it. I do understand that Glock pistols will come apart if used as a club however. Have a close friend that has examined three Glocks that were unrepairable.
As has been mentioned, there are lots of smaller auto pistols that fire both 9mm amd the .45 ACP round if one needs something lighter than the classice 1911, all steel guns. E

Hmm I suppose additional research is in order regarding disarm techniques. I might just learn something



Skeeter Skelton recanted a tale of an LEO officer pistol whipping a suspect with a 1911 until the slide flew off.


They don't carry as well as a 1911?

I find that an intriguing conclusion, as the 1911 is twice the weight of a Chiefs Special, even more so of a Colt Cobra or Model 12. In addition to a 'full-size' automatic being greatly larger .

In the two holsters I have specified for a pre 36 and a 1911, the dimensions are as follows.

Pre-36 --- 6.5" Length 5.25" Width and the all important height 1.5"(Laid flat on table and mearsured from table top, up.)

1911 --- 9" Length 5.75" Width and the all important height 1.75" Excluding the snap

Your 1911 (Lightweight or otherwise) is relegated to IWB or OWB, and you must tailor your garments specifically to conceal your 'full-size'. Which is heavy and uncomfortable for all day usage. Not to mention you will need to buy expensive holsters and belts.

I can carry a snubby in cargo shorts, blue jeans, dress slacks, a hoodie/coat pocket etc..... All with an inexpensive holster, that slips in anywhere. Which weighs less than half of what your gun does. I own and shoot several 1911's, I even have holsters for them. But the snubby gets it every time.

I carry a full size gun every day at work, and even with quality leather it is uncomfortable after an 8, 10, 12, or 14 hour day.

Often people think about grabbing the barrel and either pulling, or pushing backward. But the technique is to reach toward the frame, just in front of the trigger guard, and rotate to either side. If you rotate inward, the gun will come out of the shooter's hand very easy, and will be pointed directly at the shooter. Then you just slip your hand on the grip and finish the deal. The other way is to rotate outward, you can easily break the shooters trigger finger if it's in the trigger guard, and then when you pull back to wrest the gun away, if the trigger guard is metal and has somewhat sharp edges, you can just about de-glove the finger in the process...ouch.

The 1911 has been a long time favorite of mine and the one I've shot the most. It's easy to shoot well and easy to love. If my profession required me to carry, this might be my choice.

But as a pocket gun for personal protection, I would not trade my S&W 640:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S%26W_Model_640_revolver.jpg

However it is a most difficult firearm to shoot well. It feels heavy for its size @ 23 oz but I would not want to shoot magnum loads in a much lighter gun. It fits easily in a typical jacket pocket and is easy to conceal.

What a little DA revolver provides is an extremely reliable handgun with the simplest manual of arms:
Aim--Fire.
In the extremely unlikely event that a round misfires:
Aim--Fire.
There are no jams, no fail to feeds, no fussiness about ammo, no hammers to snag, no multiple controls and safety interlocks to manipulate.
Aim--Fire.

BANG! Every time.

While I don�t find the 1911 �easier� to carry and conceal, I do consider the 1911 a pretty easy pistol to carry concealed in a good IWB holster. My clothes are the same one�s I wear for everything else, and my shirts just go un-tucked. When you have an IWB with a good 15-25 degrees of forward cant, the gun just follows your body and tucks away very well.
Now perhaps Emericus had issues carrying a snub IWB, I don�t know. If you�re wearing a snub on the belt in a holster, to my mind THE way to carry it is in an OWB holster where the entire gun is carried above the belt line and tight to the body. That�s very comfortable, and it conceals rather well, even with shorts and a big T-Shirt. But then again, if I have a gun in a holster, I can conceal my 1911 with shorts and a T-Shirt just as well. And while the 1911 is considerably heavier, once you get used to it, you just don�t much notice it. The big factor is choosing a world class holster; makes all the difference in the world.
For me, the real attraction to the snubs, is pocket carry or ankle carry. I typically only ankle carry if I expect to be sitting for a long while, as drawing from the ankle is pretty bad unless you�re in a seated position. Often I�ll strap on the ankle rig if I�m going in to have a meal. Otherwise, my snubs are in my front pocket where they slip in easily, and are easily accessed.
Each has their own preference. But it�s what works FOR YOU, not for someone else.

.357 in a J frame is an exciting thing to shoot; I don't much like it. But you make a very good point about how difficult a small frame revolver is to master; it's really one of the toughest. The trick is lots of very low powered .38 specials and then work up to the hard kicking stuff. A .38 Special +P in an aluminum framed revolver is a strong kick, and a magnum is just obnoxious.

That is an interesting method. I might have to grab a friend and give it a try (Unloaded of course).



As far as carrying a 1911 IWB, it only works for me if I am wearing a winter coat. I have too small a frame and it prints. Even with baggy shirts, patterned shirts etc.

An airweight with +p is not an ideal training tool for the un-enlightened. It can be quite the handful. I find the steel J frames a better compromise, as the additional weight doesn't interfere with carrying.