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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
A few random pics ![[Linked Image]](http://www.gunslot.com/files/gunslot/imagecache/page/images/65052.jpg) A lot of money for a gun whose caliber does not begin in ".4" 
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 19
New Member
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New Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 19 |
Very nice, in Belgium you need FIVE licences for this combo
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,661
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,661 |
I've got an old second gen Colt SAA 45 with thousands of rounds fired that doesnt have the drag marks on the cylinder like that overpriced korth. Gunner The drag marks really don�t mean anything, it�s just a nicety. Almost all S&W�s will produce the drag mark, yet exhibit perfect timing. Most Colt�s will also, again with perfect timing.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,661
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,661 |
Sheesh, you guys - buy a gun book. That's a FN Barracuda. I would have figured Kevin (Astra Boy) would be all over that one.  Of course it's a Barracuda...no other revolver looks like that, and Tri said it was a Barracuda in his post.
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,675
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,675 |
A properly timed Colt with the old style double action (like the Pythons have) will not produce a drag line. The drag lines come from not lining the lead-in to the bolt notch up with the bolt when closing the cylinder. Ditto for the Colt SAA. As long as the hammer is always pulled all the way back to full cock before lowering it it will not produce a drag line.
A government, to afford the needful protection and exercise proper care for the welfare of a people, must have homogeneity in its constituents.
-Jefferson Davis
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,776
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,776 |
Like this? Dan Wesson also used forged parts. Like Korth, they are also out of business, even though they made some nice, durable guns to withstand thousands of basically excessive silhouette loads. A few cops carried them, but the 357 went the dodo for duty a long time ago. ![[Linked Image]](http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4684/dsc0103u.jpg) Nifty little case you have there friend.
The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment. � WARREN G. BENNIS
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,661
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,661 |
A properly timed Colt with the old style double action (like the Pythons have) will not produce a drag line. The drag lines come from not lining the lead-in to the bolt notch up with the bolt when closing the cylinder. Ditto for the Colt SAA. As long as the hammer is always pulled all the way back to full cock before lowering it it will not produce a drag line. Drag line is also produced by the timing of the cylinder bolt release.
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,675
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,675 |
If it is mistimed. A properly timed Colt will lower the bolt enough to avoid any contact with the cylinder before the cylinder begins to rotate and then drop the bolt into the notch lead-in for the next chamber. The bolt should make no contact with the cylinder in the space between the bolt notch and the lead-in to the next notch.
A government, to afford the needful protection and exercise proper care for the welfare of a people, must have homogeneity in its constituents.
-Jefferson Davis
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59 |
�Based on my experience, the quality ratio of Colt to Smith & Wesson is proportional to that of Smith & Wesson to Harrington & Richardson. The Colts are much better made and more precisely fitted, of finer and stronger materials, than Smith & Wessons. I base this statement on the personally observed differences in working internal parts with a diamond file, and wear and peening in contact surfaces with comparable round counts. Interesting observation, but I find the comparison of Colt�s and S&W about the same as the difference between S&W and H&R to be quite the exaggeration. I�ve been gunsmithing both for over 25 years, and have drawn my own conclusions. Let me clarify that, I have worked on and repaired both for that time, mostly S&W, but some Colts. However, I have only recently (past 5 years) done any serious work on the Colt�s, and I like them. Yes I will agree that the Colt�s has a finer degree of fit and finish, and on some models the metallurgy is superior; but I don�t find the difference in quality to be anywhere near the chasm you describe. To clarify right back at you, I like Harrington & Richardson. But I don't like them nearly as much as S&W, which I don't like nearly as much as Colt. The S&W action is much easier to work on than the Colt action. You know, I hear this a lot, but I don�t find either one �easier� or harder; they�re just different. Perhaps people find the Colt�s more difficult to work on because of the general unfamiliarity with the design that prevails these days. Another subjective call. Colt action parts are smaller, and set up to travel on more complicated paths. The only part liable to break on it is the floating firing pin. Yes, I�ve always found it humorous the assertion that the frame mounted firing pins are less apt to break; I personally have found it quite the other way around. I�ve changed a good 6 frame mounted firing pins to every one hammer mounted pin. Far from being, as Colt�s once declared �unbreakable�. With that design, it's either the firing pin or the recoil shield. Compare the interaction of the flint with the frizzen. �The Manurhin MR73 is the best fighting revolver ever made, designed as a significantly improved S&W, crucially strengthened at the yoke, ingeniously refined at tensioning the hammer and the rebound slide, and manufactured to the quality standards of 1950s Colts. I have tried the current S&W revolvers. There is no comparison. In a nutshell, an early Python is a better revolver than a Registered Magnum, in the same sense whereby a Ferrari 330 P3/4 is a better car than a Ford GT40. But the MR73 is the only revolver I would take in harm�s way, in the way I would choose the Citro�n ZX over the Ferrari and the Ford for entry in the Paris-Dakar rally. I�m not sure what the rebound slide has to do with combat fitness or reliability, but I�ll readily admit I�ve never had the sideplate off on a Manurhin revolver. When I think of fighting revolvers, I look to the best source of information; military service. The DA revolvers with the best track record in military service would probably be the Webleys, with the 1917 Colt�s & S&W� running a very close second. The Manurhin has never been in wide spread use, so the long term effects of service abuse are just an unknown. Never be taken in by good looking workmanship, or a sound design on paper. Most arms that hit military service tended to have both; yet most arms that hit military service require extensive development. The Webley, Colt�s, and S&W have all had the extensive development that goes with wide spread military and law enforcement service. If I had to take a revolver onto a battlefield, my personal choice would be the Webley Mk VI. I like the Webleys, but they are quite unsuitable for Magnum chamberings. Manurhin made well over 40,000 MR73 revolvers, with the vast majority bought up by French, Austrian, and German law enforcement agencies. In particular, the MR73 is still an issue sidearm with GIGN, to the tune of 150 Norma Magnum rounds fired in daily training. There are many armorers' reports attesting to these revolvers racking up quarter million round counts without needing any major work. The problem with S&W is not design, but quality. Their basic action layout is capable of uncompromising performance, as witness this Manurhin chambered in .32 S&W Long, beating match guns by S&W, SAKO, and Walther. But in order to get a current production S&W to perform like that, you would have to rebarrel it and replace its MIM lockwork with increasingly unobtainable forged parts. And even then, it will not approach the quality of Manurhin�s hammer-forged frame, barrel, and cylinder. It all depends on what you�re trying to accomplish. To make the finest target revolver is NOT what S&W is seeking; there�s very little market share for such a thing. Revolvers were supplanted in the target shooting market almost a couple of generations ago, so why compete in an irrelevant market? As to your comment about MIM parts, just like most everyone else, I think you�re being taken in by �internet experts� in your disparaging of MIM; it�s VERY sound technology. Properly made forged parts can be better provided the specifications are held with the same degree of precision. But to do so is exorbitantly costly, and prices such revolvers out of most markets. So the S&W product is a compromise, but a pretty good one considering S&W puts out orders of magnitude greater product that is suited for their intended market. Korth�s quality and engineering is truly magnificent, but a bit irrelevant here in the US, because very few are interested in such a product. US shooters who are seeking such levels of accuracy will always turn to an auto-pistol, and those auto�s will always win the matches against the revolvers. As for forged parts�technically they can be �better� but are they truly needed? If your sole goal in the world is to shoot a revolver to extremes, then perhaps they are needed. But for the rest of the world, pure forged parts just aren�t necessary. Few have greater demands than military arms, yet the preponderance of the parts found in military arms are investment cast, or these days increasingly MIM. Trust me, nothing takes a beating or abuse like a machinegun. Nothing has as many consumable parts as a machine gun, either. Accuracy in a solid-frame revolver is easy to achieve. With Korth and Manurhin, i's all about durability. So this argument ceases to matter once you get to the point of "but are they truly needed?" MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. The aesthetic sensibility of most American shooters derives from an appreciation of fancy sporting goods and service sidearms meant by their makers to be surplused after firing several thousand rounds. Most US made revolvers were made to the best possible quality given what the market would bear. Anything beyond that just doesn�t make good business sense�notice that Manurhin and Korth have an almost un-measurable market share. And it�s not just the US who puts a lifespan on service arms, literally every nation does that. Arms that have longer lifespans will typically cost more, and those with lesser lifespans cost less. Those that cost exceptionally more or exceptionally less tend to not be too successful in the marketplace in most any industry. Since Manurhin & Korth have very small niche markets, I�d say the US makers clearly chose the right path. It all depends on your notion of right. If you are satisfied with the standard of quality set by the invisible hand, Korth revolvers are not meant for you. Neither are benchmade knives, bespoke suits, custom shoe lasts, four star restaurants, or vintage wines. throughout its history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge their gun parts out of tool steel. Nor has anyone else�emphasis on economic incentive. But had the �market� truly demanded such a thing, you can bet S&W would have made it. Did you miss the part where I described the administrative requirements for the MR73? The standard that your main buyer sets is the most effective economic incentive ever. The Korth is by far the best made modern revolver, comparable in quality only to the best of the pre-WWI classics, from the French M1873, the Mauser M1878, and the Swiss M1878 and 1882. It is equal in mechanical precision to a Target Triple Lock, and far superior to it and the Registered Magnum alike in ruggedness and durability. Among post-WWII revolvers, only the first generation Colt Pythons compare to it in fit and finish. It is arguably the best sporting revolver ever made Again, here comes that �best� word again. Best for what? It�s certainly not best for someone who could never afford it. It would never be �best� for any sort of police or military service, again the price is prohibitive; the reality is, very few military or law enforcement units have the funding to provide a $5,000.00 sidearm to their officers. They are MUCH better served providing them something like a $500.00 sidearm, and spend the rest on training. �Best� as a target revolver�again, I strongly doubt it. The difference between the Korth and one of the better S&W and Colt�s is never enough to take the Korth into a whole new class. The accuracy difference is so small that it will still come down to the shooter every time. Yet the Korth has vastly fewer options for sights, grips, etc. But then again, target revolvers in actual bullseye competition are basically irrelevant. The only one�s using them anymore are those who just love to shoot revolvers. The serious competitors have switched to auto pistols. I smell sophistry. There is a warrant for superlatives not reducing to "Best for what?" The contents of a man's wallet might be terribly important to him, but they have no bearing on the quality of goods that he cannot afford. Arguably the costliest sidearm ever drafted into constabulary service outside of the petrodollar economy, the Manurhin MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. Which was a fool�s errand. Anyone would have been able to tell you that a semi-auto of considerably less cost would be far more reliable in extreme environments, and more than accurate enough for precise shooting required in a hostage rescue situation. Notice, the GIGN were some of the only people who used revolvers�and if I recall correctly they even chose the S&W model 36 as a sidearm for a time. (possibly what lead them to the Manurhin) GIGN operatives use Magnum revolvers for missions that demand precision hits with deep penetration and optimal short-range stopping power. No service grade autopistol can compete on these terms. Every double action Colt revolver I ever tested, including brand new and freshly factory tuned specimens, failed to carry up in hand-cocking the hammer while braking the cylinder. So then perhaps you should stop and think about what that means? Perhaps they were never intended to, despite the musings of Mr. Cunningham. If you understand the design, you�d know that while it would be proper for a gunsmith to fit a pawl so that it passed such a test (because if you�re going to do a non-assembly line job, you ought to do the best you can), passing such a test really means just about nothing to the Colt�s revolver. With all your mechanical knowledge, you should be able to intuitively surmise that. This is just another version of "Best for what?" I will stipulate that market demand can be satisfied with mass-produced goods. I disagree with the inference that mass market standards are all that matters. If you want a range toy, the Korth is your finest choice. I think you finally got down to what it all adds up to. Still, a good man with a S&W or Colt�s still has pretty much an equal chance for a win at the local bullseye match. Maybe he even has a better chance, given that Python barrels are unexcelled. But his gun will go out of time while mine will plug along. If you doubt that, you aren't shooting enough. Finally, I find the creation of the Korth to be really funny. They create the �finest� target revolver in a magnum caliber; kind of an oxy-moron if you ask me. Plus they create the finest target revolver in an era where the target revolver is basically irrelevant The end result is like a Rolex watch; bragging rights in an age where a watch isn�t even needed anymore since everyone carries a cell phone. Yet the Rolex wearer and the Korth shooter can go on for days as to how excellent their chosen tool really is. Willi Korth designed his revolvers at the time when the constabulary market demanded nothing so much as Magnum sixguns. Your analogy with a Rolex is telling, though I would fain compare them to Patek Philippe, reserving the former for comparisons with the SIG P210 or the Manurhin MR73. If you don't get why men wear fine watches, none of these guns are meant for you.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 18,854
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 18,854 |
Scientifically speaking.........Korth revolvers suck balls.
Sent from my Dingleberry Handheld Wireless
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,955
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,955 |
Like this? Dan Wesson also used forged parts. Like Korth, they are also out of business, even though they made some nice, durable guns to withstand thousands of basically excessive silhouette loads. A few cops carried them, but the 357 went the dodo for duty a long time ago. What parts on a Dan Wesson are forged? The entire revolver is made of investment castings. The last of the 715's (CZ small frame, 357) used forged "internal" parts. Must be bolt, hand. Possibly the trigger/hammer group. I don't know if it had the chance to go the way of the dodo..it may have even been a unicorn. CZ must have made one in 2011. Here is a pic of one allegedly for sale and the gun dealer: ![[Linked Image]](http://www.bigskyguns.com/med-img-01932.jpg) http://www.bigskyguns.com/Dan_Wesson-Dan_Wesson_Model_715_357_6_Stainless.html (Priced cheaper than a Korth  ) Some of the older guns also had some forged parts; It depended when, who and where they were made by. The pistol pack picture (pulled from the web, NOT mine!) was obviously of the sintered casting era. I do have a nice DW here though..... ![[Linked Image]](http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff127/nkhoff/IMG_0940_zps109eb54d.jpg)
Last edited by HawkI; 04/03/13. Reason: internals
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59 |
A few random pics A lot of money for a gun whose caliber does not begin in ".4" JANZ-Pr�zisionstechnik GmbH builds switch-caliber Korth action revolvers ranging from .22LR to .500S&W. http://www.jtl.de/english/revolver/revolver_e.htm
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,776
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,776 |
I can beat off with either hand. Who cares? A watch is a watch is a watch. My phone will keep more accurate time then a wrist watch. What level of minutiae is enough for craftsmanship on a handgun? A 'cheap' and 'modern' S&W model 10-10 will shoot more accurately than almost any shooter, and keep shooting past any point that most would care to finance. If paying an absurd premium for a 'modern' gun is your prerogative, then by all means GFY. I will take a registered magnum any day. Heck I'd even buy two at your price.
The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment. � WARREN G. BENNIS
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59 |
I can beat off with either hand. Who cares? And yet, you were compelled to boast. Glory be to free speech. A watch is a watch is a watch. My phone will keep more accurate time then a wrist watch. What level of minutiae is enough for craftsmanship on a handgun? A 'cheap' and 'modern' S&W model 10-10 will shoot more accurately than almost any shooter, and keep shooting past any point that most would care to finance. If paying an absurd premium for a 'modern' gun is your prerogative, then by all means GFY. I will take a registered magnum any day. Heck I'd even buy two at your price. I have three Registered Magnums. A Korth in a comparable condition costs less than half as much, for ten times the gun. Horses for courses.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 19
New Member
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New Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 19 |
I totally agree with Zeleny.
An"expensive" product will get you from the first moment top quality for a very long time.
Our family lived in Belgium Congo and they used their rifles on a daily base.
The ones made by Francotte, Dumoulin, FN and Holland and Holland are "still "going strong". The Holland from 1866 is still in working order.
I won't mention the other brands that were good value for money but they are now used.
You always pay what you get for.
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