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Well either way, MEN have to take up arms to defend what THEY recognize. And once they win that battle, then they have to continue to recognize such rights. The God part (and I�m a Christian) doesn�t mean squat unless MEN choose to recognize it.

Then rights are a misnomer and all we have are societal permissions. If that's the case, then how do we have any position to contest them, as doing so would place us higher in authority than society. It's paradoxical.

A tyrant, a man, might not recognize it but it still exists. An entire society might not recognize it, but it still exists. I submit that recognition has little to do with it.

You might have the right to wear blue socks, but the Government decree's otherwise and restricts your ability to buy blue socks and then makes being caught wearing them punishable by death, do you still have that right in a practical sense?

You might consider having a theoretical "right" morally justifies any action you take against the Government, but you would ether risk being killed or going through the Government judicatory system, which of course is stacked against you..

Getting back to reality, your Constitution provides a good degree of protection from this sort of abuse, but events since Sandy Hook since, there are people who would take your rights away in a heart beat..

That isn't a right. That's a societal permission granted to a claim. Just because you claim something, doesn't make it a right. I'd also submit that just because society says you have permission to do something also does not make it a right.

Can you rephrase this? I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here.



The Constitution affords protections to God given rights mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. The fact that they are a right is why we have the moral authority to resist and fight tyranny and not just a permission slip from society.

Look at history..look at British history for instance..we don't have the protections of your Constitution and historically one group have attacked and eroded the rights of others.

Northern Ireland in the 1960's is a perfect example. The Catholic minority were brute ally persecuted by Protestants who held power in all the local Government institutions. Catholics were basically deigned even the most basic human rights. Nothing in British law allowed them to take up arms but they did.

They didn't subscribe to any licensing conditions or back ground checks, they simply did what was needed and fought for their rights. Equally, the Protestants in power over there along with the British Government didn't capitulate, but tried to suppress them..

The same thing, with different groups and different politics is repeated through out British history going back at least 2000 years..

Hence why I believe that you only have the rights either granted by society around you and/or the rights your willing to fight for..

Hey Pete, just a small hijack here...

Which choir is singing "Men of Harlech" in your signature? They're pretty amazing...

Edited so hope it makes more sense..

Sorry, please excuse my terrible typing and grammar; its getting late here and I'm flagging!

Dixie Chicks.

You are kind of making my point here.

You use the phrase "Catholics were deigned even the most basic human rights" How can this be so if society defines a right and society was impeding on these "rights"? It's circular in thought and a paradox.

You also make the point that "They didn't subscribe to any licensing conditions or back ground checks, they simply did what was needed and fought for their rights. Equally, the Protestants in power over there along with the British Government didn't capitulate, but tried to suppress them.."

Fighting for a principle does not create a right. The right existed before anyone fought for it. What made them even think that they had these "rights" to fight for in the first place?

Will have to double check as I don't remember off the top of my head..

While very moving, its not the same as marching with fixed bayonets, behind the Fifes and Drums while they play that..as a Welshman it still makes me fell 10 feet tall...

Completely understandable!

I follow what you're saying there now, thank you. You've pretty much summed it up in later posts.

If the UK is God fearing, where are their unalienable rights?

Ever present. Just because they have surrendered them, does not make them nonexistent. The rights are still very present, and self evident, just not exercised.

I don't agree with that, but either way .. the LAW was broken and that's what you go to jail for, not right or wrong, but legal vs illegal. Some people forget the difference.

Tom

I think you are looking too deeply into it..

From a British perspective, basically regardless of the fine print, flowery talk, the theorizing or moralizing over rights and wrongs, push us too far, and the bottom line is we will take up arms; history demonstrates this has happened time and time again. We need no higher authority from man, Government or God to do this, we do it because we can..

As it should, sir!

It's a deep subject and one that originates in British and French minds!

This thread will still be here tomorrow amigo. You should get some rest.

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Where in any Bible does it say that? Common men stated we have rights endowed by a Creator. Did those men have the rightful arrogance to bestow something from a God upon you?

Bob, the Bible is full of references where God is the giver of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Do you really need me to post them?

Man's arrogance would be to say that they themselves are the giver of rights...