Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Fresh Evaluation of the "Copper Bullets"...

sounds about right to me.

I have often suspected some reasons for Barnes issues are related to using standard weight bullets in standard cartridges.I think a person is better off with lighter weights in those cartridges.

Or a faster twist barrel

So which one would you guys pick for an elk hunt this Oct. out of a 270wsm? 130TSXs at 3275fps. or 140TSXs at 3150fps.

Flip a coin, either one will work splendidly

I think just the opposite. Bullets are designed to be used at certain 'twists' to be adequately stable in flight and have a minimum of precession. This is all based on certain altitude conditions or in reality, the density altitude. The higher the density altitude, the less spin it takes to stabilize because the air is thinner and has less effect on the bullet.

The same thing has got to be true when a bullet enters a much denser medium (tissue). It has got to be spinning to remain stable and maintain a straight path. The more it is spinning, the better chance it has of maintaining straight path.

As far as mono bullets expanding, I wouldn't bet my life on the small ones expanding every time.

Great post....maintaining nose-forward, straight line penetration in game has been touted as an additional benefit of faster twist.

Thats easy. Start with a big hole.....

One of the best ways to get a prodigious blood trail is to make them leak out of the nose and/or mouth. Making a serious mess of the lungs is the ticket; you don't need two holes neither of which often leak much in big animals. (It can take a long time to fill the chest cavity with enough blood that the volume is great enough to be forced out one or both holes. On the other hand, bleeding lungs generally make blood pronto through the airway.)

Klik I killed a large mule deer up on the Peace with a 140 AB that stumbled 20-30 feet and left a road map blood trail with no bullet exit,all nose and mouth.

Another caught a 140 BBC from a 7RM at 50-60 yards that was DRT...as the rifle recoiled I could see a plume of blood blow out the nostrils...only time I have actually ever seen that happen.I think the lighting was just right and I was close enough....When I got to the animal the blood was all over his antlers.

Of course in either instance there was no blood trail needed.

wow i hadnt thought about twist rate effecting expansion in mono's

so did i screw up by building my 308win (shooting 130 TTSX's) with a 1 in 11.25" twist? i guess a 1 in 10" woudve been better>?

sako no you didn't screw up....I bet it works fine.Those 130's are probably going fast enough.Twist is one factor in bullet expansion, but there are others.

11 twist 30 calibers are favorites in the target fraternity,who susbscribe to the notion that they want just enough twist to stabilize a given bullet, but no more than that.Usually these are target bullets.

In a hunting rifle,and for using hunting bullets that are ruggedly built,there's no need to be constrained,and faster twists can be used.I'd have built at least a 10 twist,and have had 30 caliber rifles at 9 twist.These were chambered 300 win mag and 300 weatherby.

Damn I read through this thread and all I got from it is a headache!

wa....you know what the doctor said.....stop reading it and the headache will go away.

There is nothing complex here...only among those who would make it so,as they try to wrap their brains around a very simple concept.

Go over to the African forum and read JJ Hacks comments on driving Barnes bullets at high velocity to get them to work well....high velocity and faster rpm's go hand in hand,and is another twist in the equation.Been known for years.

Bob, I understand, and it makes sense that something that is spinning at a higher RPM will expand more after the initial expansion than something spinning slower. Seems people are getting caught up on when the expansion increase would be evident, which of course would be after initial impact and expansion caused by that.

wa...exactly.Early users of high velocity cartridges noticed that bullets fired from 300 magnums over expanded as compared to those fired from,say,a 30/06,and did not penetrate well,even when they had slowed down and impacted at 30/06 velocities.

The difference was the higher rpm's generated by the higher velocity from the magnums.

As to impact in game,as bullets start to fracture upon impact and expand, the twist helps this along,since bullets continue to spin even after impact into animals...faster twist has an effect on the expansion of the bullet.John Jobson was the first guy I read to mention this years ago,and noticed the behaviour shooting varmints wth fast and slow twist barrels.

It may not be noticed much if you just shoot standard C and C bullets with thin jackets,but bullets like barnes, bitterroots,and other tough jacketed hunting bullets are game changers in many ways.There are reasons they perform better with more speed and more twist.

WE dont seem to have a problem understanding why high BC bullets need more twist to stabilize in thin air because it is talked about a lot....effect on expansion and straight line penetration of high velocity bullets in a denser medium like animals is tougher to wrap heads around for obvious reasons.

Interesting though, Bob, is the study of Dr. Ed Ashby mentioned in Gregor Woods' book, Rifles for Africa wherein this study first compared the 22 Hornet and the 22-250 shooting a standard for caliber bullet weight in the TSX. Next, was the 3006 and finally, the 375 H&H.

The slower 22 cal gave deeper penetration, the 165 Barnes TSX in the 06 offered better penetration at MV 2400 vs 2700 and the 375 270 TSX offered better penetration at 2400 MV.

One point of note is the bullets were not given hunting ranges but only mentioned "bushveld" distances which in other areas of the book he describes as out to 300 yards.

The conclusion was that better penetration was found at a lower MV since the petals of the Barnes would expand to a 90 degree angle to the shank of the bullet and would act like a scythe rather than rolling back into a more classic mushroom shape and thus having to push rather than slice their way through encountered tissue. He displays a photo of a warthog shot with a 450 gr TSX from his Lott at 2200 or so MV and the thing shows a four-petaled exit wound through the shoulder. Interesting!

and to get the highest velocity, go lighter weight for caliber which has me contemplating the 110grain TTSX in 308win

I suggest you 'contemplate' the 30 cal 110 gr B C & S D.

I 'contemplated' a caribou with this single T - 120 grain TSX using a 7mm-08 at around 200 yards. While the 'bou didn't like the fact that it was 'too much' for him, I didn't like the fact that it didn't expand much, didn't penetrate a lot - especially in light of the relative lack of expansion, and that it did not provide a very resounding death in spite of it's path through the core of the critter.




This 100 XFB slammed two caribou to the ground at a similar distance; same rifle. The 140 XFBs were equally as effective and appeared to open quite well. I never recovered any of them from anything.