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IMHO I would prefer to ride an animal that did NOT try to do it's own thinking.

Cutting bred horses are generally very smart and relatively easy to train in my experience. They require a trainer smarter than they are, they want to please and are extremely athletic and sure footed

I find the brains of a horse has a lot to do with what the owner & previous owner(s) have going on between their ears

some are certifiably crazy and their horses are too

others are just happy go lucky and they generally choose a horse that is happy in most any situation

Definitely how the owner treats an animal is a factor, but some are definitely smarter than others. No question

No question in my mind JWP. The thing that has concerned me for a long time when it comes to mule's, is that if things go south out on the trail, will they listen to you or will they go into self preservation mode.

Manny do not talk to their horses enough, train wrecks happen with mules also. I tell mine "easy" and they know what it means and trust me enough to calm down rather easily. I also believe that spending time with a young horse less than 1 year pays dividends in the future.

I also believe that spending time with a young horse less than 1 year pays dividends in the future.

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Agree, excellent observation.

I have been riding mules only for more than 30 years and an have had no problem with the self preservation mode. In fact if a person would only pay attention to what the mule is telling them, they would get in a lot less wrecks. It is proven fact the mules actually have a lot more chance of getting someone out of a bad predictament if the rider would only let them do it.

I start spending time with the mules I have raised while they are still wet. Most people have no concept of how much time needs to be spent with young mule or horse before they even think about getting on them.

Yea I truthfully don't have any personal experience with mule's, but there is at least one pretty famous packer who tends to not ride the mule's for that very reason.
My dad sure likes mules and his late wife was a top hand with mules. She seemed to think that our program of imprinting our foals would work really well with mules.

If more riders trusted their horses instincts in bad situation the horse will pick the best way. No doubt that a mule will as well. A horse will take you back even if you do not know the way

Ain't it the truth! A horse is the only animal I know of that will stick a foot in a fence and cripple itself so bad it has to be shot.
I've raised about every farm animal there is except a mule and I agree that pigs are at the top and turkeys at the bottom. Goats and llamas are very close to the top, too, far above cattle and sheep.

Maybe that's why I liked my horses. I could almost keep up with them in the smarts contest.
A few days ago I was reading something about high tension fencing. They really stressed never using it with horses because they'll dice themselves on the tight wires. There's no give to them and a horse that hits one will get cut to pieces.

Cocadori,
It sounds like you may be on to something. I am very happy to hear of your breeding plan.

Saddlesore deserves respect when it comes to mules. I agree that they tend to come in only 2 groups- good ones and bad ones. I have ridden many gaited mules in the mountains which can be a lot of fun, and owned a couple of gaited ones. Most mules are not nearly as tiring to ride as horses in the rough stuff because they keep their feet closer to the ground and don't roll as much when they walk. This becomes obvious after a 25 mile day with a pack string.

A smart horse will not do that. My horses will stand there until I get them unfouled

Smart horses are a joy for me, I have in the past owned dumb ones and never again. I want a horse that enjoy human attention and that is hard wired in when they are born IMHO

A smart horse does not go berserk




















They will do the exact same thing with wire or a vine in thick woods. I like well bred smart quarter horse that way I know exactly what I am getting when they are born

Comparing horses to horses, there are smarter ones and dumber ones, but compared to all farm animals, they still rate pretty low on the totem pole.

I'd bet those two horses were worked with when younger on how to handle a rope.

I'd still be leery tying them out in the hills like that and having a herd of elk stampede thru or bear or moose. Hock rope burns waiting to happen sooner or later.

Before they were ever work the one with the white back feet got wire around her back ankle and jusdt stund there until I figured out that she was fouled and relased her. Some are just hard wi9red that way.

I have never bought into the "horses are dumb" myth.

If they didn't spook from a bear or such then they would not be very smart

Horses are an animal of flight not fight..it is a natural instinct for them to flee what scares them. No surprize a wire fence that has pricked or cut them makes em wanna flee.

However some may not find the need to struggle either.

None of us got smart without instruction or making mistakes..right?

What makes you think a mule or horse would?

Not to be an ass ...but...I'd be leary of turing out horses anywhere with a halter on. Many have learned the hard way you can easily cripple a horse that way. You can also disfigure their nose.

As an addition... I'm with jwp on the horse's are dumb thing.

It's been proven time and time again they are one of the smarter mammals.

Think about what you are asking of a horse and all that it does for a human time and time again often with precision and repeatable consistiency. When asked correctly they are able to and do perform complicated tasks. These tasks go against EVERY natural instinct they have.

Don't even begin to tell me they are not smart. Most of the poeple who say that have to travel only a short distance to find the route of the issue.

I have raised horses, mules, cows, goats, pigs, no sheep, turkeys ,chickens and a few things I have forgotten probably.

Pigs are still at the top of the farm animal smart scale. Comparing horses to other farm animals, there is no comparison although cows are not vary far up the ladder either.

I won't dispute that some horses are smarter than others, some breeds are more trainable than others, and certainly some breeds are more apt to do certain tasks than others.

However, experienced farmers and ranchers that have worked with a lot of farm animals know where horses place in the smart scale.

They cannot do complicated tasks unless trained to do so and demonstrate the a small ability to perform cognizant reasoning , ie. cause and effect. They only do task that are against their natural instinct because they are trained to do them and very few arrive at that state with out that training. Which is why mules are somewhat more difficult to train than horses. They have to be desensitized more before they will accept the fact that what you are asking them to do will not hurt them. Lay out an obstacle course for a goat that requires it to figure out how to get thru it and it will get it done. You can even house train pigs to use litter boxes.

Perhaps it is wrong to base their IQ on human standards as most of their actions are from tehe prey side of the animal equation.

Train for that particular task on a consistent basis and they are very hard to train to change that method. That is why they learn bad habits just as easy as good habits.

The training of horses thru pressure and release and repeating task also prove this out. They will seek out the easiest way to do something that requires the least amount of thought, because they cannot think as humans know the process.

Those that subscribe to the above average intelligence of a horse or mule are more likely to suffer injuries from equine activities.

It is more appropriate the realize smart trainers make smart horses.

SS,

Now you are onto something.



Smart is a humanized concept. How can you apply human concepts to animals. Maybe as/for a barometer?

Are mules smarter or more self preserving? Do they learn more? Do they learn faster?

Smart scale of what?

Here's is the single biggest issue.

Anthropomorphism, or personification. PERIOD!

It is the attribution of human form or other characteristics to anything other than a human being.

It is an interesting discussion.