Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa 2 gun battery?

I took the 375 h&h and a 30-06. 300TSX for the 375 and 180 TTSX for the -06. Shot 5 with the 375 and 3 with the 06. Next trip, one of them stays home....just don't know which yet!

What guns are they, the '06 and .375?

DF

I used 300 grain North Forks, softs and solids. They shot to the same POI.

DF:

Winchester 70 375

Howa 1500 30-06 (trigger so good my 'smith is doing the 70 to be just like it)

Stopping rifle and a shoot it again rifle? If that's all you have I'm sure it will work. Just don't think you'd need the stopper. Your PH will have your back if that opportunity arises. And for your small rifle I hear a lot of experienced folks say 30 cal kills much better? I've not been yet but have set my 2 gun battery up for the dream to come true. 300 H&H with/200gr for PG and 375 H&H with/300gr for Buff. Both rifles are Win M70 Safari Express models setup as twins.

There again, you've heard before I'm sure, the cartridge head stamp doesn't kill it's the bullet. I wish you great success!

Cheers,
Wild Bill

Personally, for my own hunting across the pond, if it's strictly PG then either a .308Win or 30-06 is all I'd bother taking.

For DG, my .375H&H and .458WM

Years ago, Craig Boddington had an article and again in his book Safari Rifles, on the ideal one, two and three gun African battery. For the two gun, he liked a 338/416 combo. Can't say I disagree.

On the 375/06 combo, I can't call it a "bad" choice because it's a good choice but also for fear of being tarred & feathered but I will grow a pair and call it an acceptable albeit mediocre choice for Buffalo and PG. That 458Lott/7Mag is to me a better choice (with proper bullets of course)

Since you mentioned, Craig Boddington's Safari Rifles book, jorgeI. I prefer the section called The Professional's Choice Today over Craig's recommended 338/416 combo.

This section seems to me to be the most useful of all the stuff I have had the opportunity to read. It's broke down in to Game category.
Professional Hunters' Personal Choices
Light Plains Game: .243-32, .270-28, 7mm Mag-13
Medium Plains Game: 30/06-33, 7mm Mag-25, .300H&H-22
Lion: 375H&H-66, .458-15, 416 Rigby-10
Large Plains Game: 375H&H-58, .300H&H-31, .338 Mag-11
Leopard: 375H&H-50, 300 Mag-22, 30/06-19
Thick-Skinned Game: .458-48, 375H&H-33, 416 Rigby-18
All-Around: 375H&H-81, .416-7, 30/06-6

These numbers are the top three per category with the # of votes received.

Then the pro's were asked what they would recommend to clients.
One Rifle: 375H&H-70 out of 97 mentions
Two Rifles: 7mm Mag + .375H&H-19, 300 Mag + .375H&H-18, 30/06 + .375H&H-13

One thing that jumps out at me while looking at both charts is how the Marginally powered 375H&H clearly rules the roost.

Another thing that I picked up with this reading that most of the Pro's favored was high section density bullets or heavy for bore and moderate velocity.

Cheers,
Wild Bill

WB: I've spoken to Craig about both the caliber selection (by his own admission he was in the minority on "his" caliber selection) and the "heavy for caliber" predilection:
PHs are loathe to see clients show up with cannons they can't really shoot and the 375 offers plenty of killing power with mild recoil, hence shot placement (as it should be) is the main strategy here.

As to the bullet issue, it is my opinion that the overwhelming majority of PHs are stuck in the 1960's or at least in the last century when it comes to bullets. They are used to conventional cup and core bullets or at best bonded and to them the Holy Grail is the Woodleigh which has been clearly outclassed by the likes of the A Frame, TSXs etc. A lot of them just plain refuse to admit said bullets will hold up and penetrate better than a Woodleigh or certainly other bullets like the Hornady Interlock, Sierra etc.

If you look over on the Accurate Reloading Forum, there are literally hundreds of pages and thousands of posts with clear, factual evidence on the superiority of the new age bullets over the old, yet they refuse to accept it. Even with Double Rifles not only do these bullets penetrate and hold up better but produce significantly less barrel strain on these doubles yet most of these PHs won't touch them, until that is they actually watch them perform, that is why the TSX for example is rapidly becoming the PH's choice over there. Maybe JJ Hack will chime in.

I agree that conventional thinking is to bring a .30/06 and .375 on the theory (or observation) that the "average" hunter can't manage more in terms of recoil with any degree of accuracy.

I have hunted PG with a .30/06, .300 H&H, .300 Win, .338 Win and .416 Rigby. IMO, for anything smaller than eland, a .30/06 with a well placed premium bullet is all that is needed.

For leopard, where legal, a .30/06 with a 180 grain Partition is a better choice for a first shot than is a .375. A .300 with the same bullet is even better, providing the hunter can manage it with a high degree of accuracy.

As to DG, a perfectly placed shot with a .375 is better than a less than perfect shot with a .505 Gibbs. Followups, however, are another matter.

A .375 with a rapidly expanding bullet is an excellent choice for lion.

For someone with sufficient skill at arms to manage recoil and shoot with a high degree of accuracy, I agree with Craig that a .338 and a .416 are an excellent choice, especially on a full bag safari.

Except when leopard hunting, I bring a .416 Rigby and a .470 N.E. as my two rifles on DG safaris. That pretty much covers the big stuff and should a good sable come along, the .416 will reach out to 200+ yards well enough to bring it home.

On my last safari to date (2012) I brought a .338 Winnie and a .470. It was a leopard hunt. The leopard dropped instantly on the first day to a well placed shot from the .338. The .338 served well for everything else, including eland. The .470 was there only if the leopard hunt did not go well. It was never fired except to verify zero.

Funny, but JJ says his camp loaners are a 3006 and a 375 with 168 TSX and 270 TSXs respectively.

Has anyone read JJ's article about the 338-06 and the Whelen? A good read and JJ feels the 338-06 is a top selection for non-DG but he can tell us if he comes aboard the thread.

JorgeI: I simply beg for you wisdom on this TSX subject. Bullets have changed but physics have not. Pushing a lighter weight bullet to the speed of light is not going to react the same if you use a heavy for bore bullet pushed at moderate velocity. Even if you use the Barnes bullets. The higher sectional density bullet still has to penetrate more & straighter???

Help me understand it because I've never used them. I hear that sometimes the TSX bullets bend the nose over and track in directions of the unknown with out expansion. Plus you want strain on barrels...pushing bullets to the speed of light is not easy on throats and bores??? I have chatted with Hack about them and he has some pretty good evidence that they work wonders. I'm jus stuck in the 60's to, I guess. Heavy for bore at a moderate speed works and it has for a very long time, forever. I might as well admit it now...I also like the performance of round nose bullets on game over everything else.

Cheers,
Wild Bill

Round nose bullets penetrate FAR less than those with a flat meplat that has been proven way too many times to revisit.


"speed of light" while a good thing, ( I shoot a LOT of Weatherbys and have no issues) 2150 v 2175 out of a double is hardly an acceleration or speed of light but a 480gr Woodleigh at 2150 doesn't even come close to a 450gr CEB NON-CON at 2175 in penetration (both softs)

On the 06, a 168gr TSX will out penetrate a 180gr Cup and COre RN while at the same time creating a significant would channel and two exit wounds.

What you might "hear" and seen as have I is that on occasion, a TSX will do as you state but that issue has been addressed and fixed with the TTSX.

Use what you like, I just like to take advantage of every edge I can. That said, not always, otherwise I would use a 460 scoped Weatherby on a buffalo over a double. Cheers

NOt funny, he is addressing the recoil, shootability and increased performance of BOTH calibers when using the TSX.

Let me chime in on this as an X/TSX believer.

I started using them more than 20 years ago when Randy Brooks introduced the original Barnes X. They may have copper fouled a few bores, but the performance on game was an upgrade from Nosler Partitions, which is my benchmark.

I introduced several African PH's to them who, in their usual way told me GS Customs from RSA were the bomb and that petals coming off the X were bad and so on UNTIL more clients used them and kill stuff fast!

Within a few years these same PH's were then singing the X and the TSX praises. We all started finding out that dropping down a weight category worked best. There you go.

JorgeI: Sorry my preference in round nose bullets was implied as expanding bullets since we were talking TSX. I don't consider heavy for bore being a 180 grain bullet. I'd like to see the comparison 168 TSX & 220 grain RN. I haven't & don't know? I do understand the 220 gr RN will expand and penetrate at a very wide range of velocity. Unlike the TSX by what I have heard and read.

Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to learn. If I typed something that would leaned to thinking I'm being an A$$. I did not mean to or intend to.

If there is something out there that will give me an edge I would like to know about it and use it as well. Not sure I'm ready for a 460 Weatherby thou!

hatari...please tell more! So if I drop from a 220gr down to a 200gr or 300gr to 270gr, I'll have better performance?

Look, 220g RN works everytime, but it is slow, and with cup and core bullets slow always works because hyper fast has been known to blow them up.

Much of the writing praising heavy for caliber RN bullets was all written before the advent of the expanding mono constructed bullet a la Barnes X.

Before then, speed was bad in some circles. Gave erratic terminal performance. All the cup and core bullets seemed to do their best when launched at about 2600-2700 fps. The Weatherby worshipers loved what 3200 fps at the muzzle did, but some found that under 100 yards, some bullets disintegrated, and thus spawned the "I hate Roy Club" that you are knowing or unknowingly a member.

Those of us that have used and experimented with the TSX and it's cousins have found that faster MV is fine, medium MV is fine, slower MV is ok. The damned things work. Many have found that in the .30-06 and the various .300 mags, 165gr are faster than the 180-200 and especially the 220, but kill stuff just as effectively. Also, in my experience, I've never gotten the same top MV from TSX's that I did with Nosler Partitiion or especially Nosler BT. Don't get the best groups either, but it's worth the trade on Big Game.

Also, match your bullet to the hunt. Bongo in the Rain Forest in Cameroon? Close shots in dense growth, do the 220's. Plains game in Masailand? Better get something faster.

Screw the .460. Maybe the most miserable sob I've ever shot. Don't try it from prone with that damned muzzle brake either. It will mangle your shoulder and raise a cloud of dust you won't believe, Screw Roy!

Recoil seems to be a limiting factor for many.

No one enjoys being whacked (if you do, check out Helga's House of Pain).

However, if the rifle is of sufficient weight, has a long enough LOP (so as to avoid a Weatherby eyebrow or a thumb in the nose), and you avoid notoriously sharp kickers (some small bore magnums come to mind), you can learn to shoot a medium or big bore with a little practice.

Rifle fit is extremely important. An open grip that allows you to avoid banging your fingers into the trigger guard or getting hammered by the bolt knob, coupled with a good pad and a comb shape that doesn't hit you in the cheek are extremely important. One size does not fit all in hunting rifles.

Once you get a zero, stay away from the bench and shoot from the sticks and offhand. Limit the number of rounds you fire each day/week when practicing. To initially learn the sticks, use a bolt action .22 until you get it figured out. Practice trigger control and sight picture with a .22.

Learn to work the bolt HARD. Forget about the empties. Load the magazine completely full each time to verify rifle function when working the bolt hard from the sticks. Start your strings with the safety on so you learn to push it off before firing. Pull the rifle into your shoulder and learn to hang on to it when the muzzle rises.

If everything is done correctly and the rifle fits, you should only feel a big push. Remember that recoil will not kill you!

You should be able to place all the rounds in your magazine into a four inch circle at 100 yards from the sticks with a magazine rifle. if you can't do that after diligent practice, go to a smaller rifle. if you still can't do that, then Other Sports Beckon!