Home Forums Gear Horses and ATV's Double Tough Pony

Rick what is the "mountain build", that's a good one. Not speed but endurance is what I was talking about, the same thing that saddlesore was explaining. I rented 2 horse in 1980 for a do it yourself pack-in elk hunt both were about the same size, one was much older, yet was still going strong when the younger horse was worn out, size doesn't mean endurance. pine is correct a small horse or mule can do the work of packing in the mountain, size is not the determining factor


pine doesn't matter what good feet are good feet doesn't matter the discipline the horse is used for

I have packed little 42" mini mules and it's a fact they had to swim but over all, those big ones are too hard to lift packs on.

We must have a different breed of outfitters because here in Colorado almost all that I see are packing mules or horses less than 15 hds, most in the 14 or 14&1/2 size. They are using draft crosses for saddle mounts, but only because of the lard butt 300 lb hunters that keep showing up.The mama to these mules I have was a 13 hd haflinger built like a mini belgium and she could sure plow thru the snow. Only problem was my boots were in the snow.

Speaking of experience, I haven't worked with too many outfitters, but have been packing since 1969, that is 43 years worth of experience and riding for 60 + years. One good friend of mine packed 3 + months out of the year with an outfitter for 30+ years an he has the same opinion of big stock. Especially in the mountains and getting around in heavy timber. The big stuff might be OK for trails, but they sure get limited when you get off them in the blow downs or thick timber.

It's hard to find a stream more than 2 ft deep here up past 600 ft and mostly we are hunting at 8000ft+.So swimming is not on the list of high priorities

I totally agree the statement is BS of the smelliest kind

Ric, I like big stout horses too.

Of course I'm a little bigger too.

The Grey horse weights about a ton.

As far as little animals not packing loads. This guy packing the 1/2 of elk packed 200 lbs + of camps and many times full cow elk for almost 30 years.
He was 13&1/2 hds tall and didn't weigh 800 lbs on his best day. He was put down because of cancer last montht at almost 30 year sold.
The old army field manuals for packing mule states that mules being used every day on long campaigns should not be packed with more than 200 lbs and those were big 15&1/2-16 hd mules.

Saddlesore,
That picture tells a lot. A really nice sorrel outfit. I will take a critter with a big heart anytime. I have hung up my spurs, but still miss the mules.

I was hanging out with two neighborhood donkeys this morning. I still like to scratch the inside of their ears and watch the head gone down and the lower lip start to quiver. Long-eared equines are really smart and I still have affection for them.

Bone structure, feet, angles, Long pastern area, mind and heart.

It isn't uncommon to have a smaller horse out last a bigger horse. However, the back story before you begin is more important. If you have a big horse that is legged up equally compared to the smaller one they'll go for a long time. Many BIG horses get over looked and passed up and therefore are typically out of shape.
The bigger ones can go all day and then some (30 miles or more) if they are kept well.
If a guy is foolish enough to ride 30 miles on a pony then go use that pony to run and gun the next day again, well then he's foolish enough. The way I've bee "learned" to play in the hills is have 2 saddle horses. Better yet have more than that and make sure they all ride and pack.. much to that.

Walk in to any outfitters camp that works in the hills. Take a general overviews of the "types" that are the used. It won't take long to see and overall "theme".

Everyone has their preferences.

I have had both smaller ones and much bigger ones. What is it they say... "admire a big horse and ride a smaller one."

Probably true, however, I like em stout, muscled up, coffee can feet, agile, can do attitude with intelligence.
You can't go find a specific breed that does this. There are some better than others however. In my mind it is an individual thing. However, breeds with some draft in them ala draft cross(ish) isn't ever a real bad thing.

I guess where I've worked and play and although my experience is only 15+ years, the boys I've worked for and with have 5-6 times that much experience. You tend to look, listen and observe around em. They'll more often than not better your odds on what works in the hills. I mean what "works". Not trail-ride horses for Johnny and Suzy on a Saturday afternoon for an hour. Not a show sheen, long weekend get dressed up and be political horse either. Not to say you couldn't find one that does that but there arn't many.
Now with that you have to do right by your "mountain build" horses. Keep em in shape and tuned up. Many fail their horses that way.

TT,

wow.... what breed?

Draft cross. PMU horse. That big Grey horse has never quit on me. He is willing to take on any terrain, I have pointed him at. I tried to keep him legged up.

Pard packs a gray A-rab (among other equus) that is pretty small, but is tough enough that I keep saying that he deserves a better name. The gray's name is "The White Wuss".

Heck of a horse under a pack or riding saddle.

Our camp south of Yellowstone is 6 hours in. And it is not the farthest in. You will find very few small anything, mules or horses, in any of those camps.

Saddlesore mentioned this, but most of our hunters are 200-300lbs. Then add saddle, rifle, saddlebags and sometimes a huge daypack. And to make it worse they don't know how to ride so they usually sit like a sack of grain in the saddle. Our horses have to do this all fall and summer trips. I don't mind smaller horses but they won't hack carrying that for long.

This is a lot different than a recreational DIY hunter going out for a trip or three a year. You can get away with a lot more. Not a slam just a different deal.

We have some pretty good sized mules but most are just average size. We don't usually have to load them too heavy anyway.

The best dude horses in my opinion have big feet, lots of bone from the hoof up, stout, but not super tall (most dudes can't get on well either).

TT,

I wrangled for an outfitter then guided for him for a few years. All he had was PMU horses. Every year we'd take 2 trailers to Canada and come back with em full.

Not all were quite that big though.

Ralphie,

yep yep


Not a slam on anyone but if you do it enough with stuff to drag along. You generally start gravitating towards bigger. Slow and steady. Now if you're out to find new country or have a place to be sure is nice to have a legged up willing to move out sorta mount.
With as many supply runs and meat runs I did. I wish I would had a Rocky or 2 with a string of 6 that could keep up.

If you want to travel fast in the mountains, bring mules to ride as well as pack. The elk hunters in the Northern Rockies have figured this out a long time ago.

I like the story of riding with a mule club over on the other side of the Sierras. There were about 15 people in our group. Several mules were in their late 20s, oldest one was 33. We had many retired people in the group up to about 78-80.

We ran into the Placer County Search and Rescue group having lunch. Young people, rodeo types, all on Quarter horses with heeler dogs. Team ropers, barrel racers. They took one look at our outfit and left.

We ate lunch, mounted up and headed down the trail which was rough, and wet. Within 45 minutes the SAR group pulled over to let us pass. They were dumbstruck and did not say a word.

I went on a trail ride with STR up in Oregon a few times. The first ride I was the only guy on a mule with 100 people on horseback. The first two days they gave me a hard time. By day three all I heard was "where can I get a mule like that?" The $15,000 Quarters could not keep with my good molly Judith.

I'll partially agree with that. Mules in the hills ain't never a bad thing. Unless... ;-)

The mules we've borrowed from time to time would be hard pressed to keep pace with the rockies we've been training though. Not at the gait but just walking out as well.

I've yet to see many quarter horse that truly has it in the hills. Most of the ones that look like quarters that canhack a day are crossed with something.

price tags and papers are just that...

The more you post the less I think you really know about horses or mules for that matter

No worries I don't know all that much... and I learn more everyday. Truth is I look forward to it.

I think the issue is that you take exception to anything less than positive mentioned about a quarter horse. There is a reason they are name quarter horse. From expereince the ones I have seen that could handle the day in day out work in hills were not papered and didn't have a 5 figure price tag. Now I have been around a few that were alright. However, most of the ones that could hack it were a cross of such. My wife rode one for years. However he was a thoroughbred/quarter horse. 2 back his sire was a TB. Long legs, deep chest and muscled up. He could go all day long but not the best feet in the world.

It is no secret that many gaited breeds walk out very fast with long strides. Quarters have a hard time keeping pace. Many mules have a hard time keeping pace as well. but are better at staying with it.

Is the rocky the breed to end all. Hardly, but there are many many benefits to this breed in the hills. However, I don't see many that are horses I would choose to pack. It's also tough dragging a string off em because they do move out so well.

I also think my idea of going to the hills and yours, including the time spent are very different. ex:
Not real sure how you packed everything on 2 especially since I imagine you rode one. Many who work the hills generally say that it take 1.5 animlas to get a hunter's stuff to camp. That is also with camp set and all the daily essentials in camp.
My idea of going to the hills isn't a 2 hour trailride. Many times it's to the trailhead before first light and the real ride starts after you get through the hikers and 1-2 hour trailriders. Many times it also is a 2-3 day thing. Often it's draging a pack animal or 2. If I go Elk hunting it takes 3-4 pack animals not to mention the saddle horses.
Therefore, it is my opinion ( I'm allowed to have one on forums such as this) that quarter horses arn't the best suited for this and I wouldn't search out one for this.

One of the best rides I ever had was a mule. One of the toughest too. But I'm only guessing it was a mule cause it had long ears. Worst part about it was that she was so good that she was needed more for Dudes on multi day pack trips so thats where she earned her keep.
I'm a real fan of mules walk out nice, super smooth, typically tough as nails, good feet and sure footed. I like em so much I'm thinking of breeding my rocky mares with one.

I don't know all that much but I do know I have some experience and facts to draw from when it involves going to the hills.

Quarter Horses aren't on the list of the top 3 choices for rides. Good news for you.

Oh and I would also reconsider having your horses turned out with halters on... that much I do know. Jus'sayin'

First off I did pack everything that I took on them, 2nd by your own post you stated that 1/4 horse can't keep up with is BS and then you stated or "what looked like 1/4 horses. Hell a 1/4 horse can look exactly like the pictures of horses that you posted. There are dogs that carry the 1/4 horse moniker just like in all breeds and or crosses

You also stated that you wanted long pasterns, I am like why? Longer than normal is not a plus in fact it is a negative. One wants normal length with a proper angle. Next fact larger bones does not automatically mean a sounder tougher horse.

You named this thread "Double Tough Pony" and you do not know that for a fact because you just got the horse.

The bread is not the point it is the every thing that you have is superior I know for a fact that I have been riding, showing and working horse longer than you have been alive. Not long ago you at least in your mind were the best long range hunter, then the best guide outfitter, in fact it appears a real legend in your own mind. Now your a horseman of superiority. WOW the accomplishments, I suspect that saddlesore has a bit of experience with packing and mountains. This ain't rocket

Wow..dude...

No superiority here at all.. just sharing some of the expereinces, n stuff. Funny thing about forums you can read all sorts of stuff into them...

never said I want long pasterns...infact just the opposite. I said I look at the long pastern area. You know there is a long and a short pastern....?

I just got the horse but In know he packs well.

Double tough pony is in hopes he is. He sure is built like one.

You placing the best on anyting is your reading it in your own mind. I've done a few things. That's all.

Your post your quote you said it