Home Forums Gear Horses and ATV's Double Tough Pony

A while ago I asked Dad (Val) to keep his ears and eyes open for a Mustang. I wanted a big stout, double tough, good moving, 4 wheel drive, mountain pounding Mustang. But he has to have a kind eye and be willing to be a buddy...

That was about 9 years ago...

Well found him!

Dad calls him "Big'un" Not sure if it'll stick or not...

He's a monster for a wild pony... You can see a smidge of his brand just off the corner of his left eye.

I've got 3 rides on him and so far it's going well and I am very impressed. He move's with raw power and purpose. Seems to want please and seems to be genuine about wanting to be best buddy's.

I can tell you this if he wants to quit the earth and turn inside out. I'm gonna look like a stain in the round pen. The power he has is intimidating. But I love it!

don't see many mustangs around here with white feet. Wyo caught horse?

He's a big one for sure!

We do think he came origingally outta Wyo. Probably a colt turned loose with the wild ones or someone threw in a draft cross stud colt into a band when times got tough.

The brand is hard to make out the code but we're working on finding the originality of him.

White hooves in the front on a horse in rough rocky terrain would give me pause.

Cocadori,
I hope you got lucky. He looks pretty straight but maybe turned in a little in front. I would put white mustang feet up against black grade horse feet.

Most of the double tough ponies I have ridden have all had long ears. We have talked about mustangs before. I still think they are under-rated for rough country. There are several out behind the house this week.

We shod him yesterday.. these feet are tough as nails regardless of the color...

There is no factual basis to 100% support that white feet are always softer.

Yeah I see where you mean he looks turned in .. the wife surprised me with the picture we were praticing fore quarter turns and walking off and caught me as I was turning right... then I stopped. Kinda looks like he is turned in but he's not.

I agree as well.. With the amount of "stang blood in him I'd put his whites up against any blacks.

I also agree that the Mustang is truly under-rated as a super mountain horse. Truth is many who start the mustangs approach the training like a domestic horse and ther-in lies much of the problems down the road.
Thnnk about it. Many of the Mustangs are born and raised in the mountain terrain. Then people say the 1/4's, Walkers, Morgans, Rockies, etc. etc. make a superior mountain horse compared to the Mustangs. Simply not true. Each horse is diifferent. Mountain horses are found in the mind, feet, heart, build, and again the mind .. ;-)

I disagree and so do a lot of race horse trainers

I have heard variations of the rhyme on white feet. Here is one.

One white foot, buy him
two white feet, try him
three white feet, deny him
four white feet, give him away

One white foot, buy him
two white feet, try him
three white feet, be shy of him
four white feet, deny him




Doug Butler has researched hardness as a factor of color and found no scientific basis for hardness differences. LINK

For me, it's not that white feet are softer, but *if* soft feet are present, there is a very good chance that the feet are white.

Not saying that softness is the problem, but more front foot injuries occur to the front feet of races horse with white feet according to multiple trainers.

I know from experience that it is harder to keep shoes from ripping off of quick horse (cutting horses for example) with white feet. BTDT

How many of you ride that much without shoes that you're that worried about white feet?

How many of you have had that many shoes pulled off a white foot that you're that worried about it?

I wonder how many super good horses have been passed over because they had some white feet? Tis' a shame and ridiculous. To me anyway.

There are ways to maintain and check the shoes as you're riding if you are that anxious about it.

I suppose there are those who do don't want to pay a good farrier or shell out the extra $10 per foot for a pad? OK so then go buy a truck mud flap and cut your pads from it. You can re-use the pads time and time again... someone once tried that a time or two so I've heard. I would also question why they are taking so much of the dead sole away..ever think it has a purpose?

For me white feet will never give me any reason to question or pass over a horse. The color of the pony or the color of his feet are the last thing I look at... if I do at all.

This stuff drives me nuts. I suppose because after selling over 80 horses last year things like this come up time and time again and you wonder where the metality of this comes from?
I also wonder how may out there have ridden that much, ridden that far to places that far away and back with out getting back "to the barn" to resolve a supposed issue? I have been and know many more who have been and then some, miles and miles away from home for e x t e n d e d periods of time and not worried about there white footed horses.

I have had conversations with multiple people about this. Many, many ferriers as well... there are many ways to "get around" a soft errr white foot.

I wish more people would spend time worrying about how they ride and how their horse is trained then fretting over if he has white feet... I know I do.

I have personally handled, eyeballed and trimmed over 200 different horses in the past 2 years. All of these horses have been barefoot in the MT foot hills on various terrain including ROCKS and A LOT of them. The white feet were not worn more or differently than the black feet.

My wife or I ride pretty much every day... cared for correctly soft feet (white I suppose) are not a big deal... There are other things that warrant attention more than that.

ugghhhh, no worries that's one of the reasons I have this new pony because someone was worrird about white feet I suppose... their loss, my gain.

OK...rant over... off to ride ;-)

Keep your mind in the middle ;-)


WOW THANK YOU FOR THIS!!!! Finally ...

Myths die hard.

Often wondered if the U. S. Cavalry selection criteria for remounts took into account white versus black feet. Photographs I have seen show a propensity for solid color and very little white markings.

Probably a topic for another thread would be a discussion on the reliability of shod versus unshod horses.

Wayne

A lot of what vets and farriers have learned recently has been from examining mustano feet. I ran my mules barefoot. Once for a trail ride up in the high Cascades of Oregon which is pure andesite and angular fractured rocks, I shoed the fronts on my good molly. After 120-130 miles or so the front feet and back feet looked the same.

Race horses have rarely been bred for good feet. Most other breeds haven't been until recently. Bad feet or even average feet on a mustang can cost him his life.

I liked to trim the mule feet pretty often. When they get too long the inside edge of the hoof is usually the first place to flake off. I like the "mustang roll" taught to me by a good farrier and teamster from Smith Valley, NV. It replicates the natural rounding off of the toe shown by mustangs that travel for a living in rough country.

I met a good horse hand in the last few years that has become a clinician. He says one of the most important things in raising a good horse for the mountains is to turn them out as foals on rough ground. Let them grow up going up and down hill, traveling on rocks and playing in streams. Horses that live in flat corrals with soft sand sometimes never really learn to be comfortable hanging on a rocky trail 8 inches wide.

I had a ferrier once that agreed with Cocardori as far as white feet go. Some, it seems, are fairly hard.

Cocadori,

I liked this post. I'd much rather look at overall build than what color their feet are. Our outfitting horses go up and down the trail and X country all summer/fall. I don't notice any difference. We just use them.

Sure we have horses that can't hack it, but it is almost never because of hoof problems.

Whether Big'un sticks or not, it does fit.

Feet are the most important part of any horse especially a race horse, to say they are not bred to have good feet is ridiculous. A race can not stand the pounding without good feet

I seldom shoe my horses. It is better to not shoe as much as many did in past

I doubt that you will have this horse pull a shoe, I've never experienced a problem except on extremely quick cuts at high speed with a powerful horse. The front feet take the biggest pounding.

Informative thread for me. There are many variables at play that determine final results. I put a lot of weight on genetics, appropriate feed and a top farrier. We go barefoot most the time around here but our terrain permits that.

Yep, yep, yep!

Ralphie,

Funny you mention outfitting. This pony came from an outfitter who didn't think he'd amount to much and the feet entered into the decision.
When we were doing it. I'd would have traded 2 typical horses for one like this. AND like you, if the horse or mule made the cut he was used regardless of the color of the feet.


Here's another myth that is busted. "Older horses are harder to start and don't train well"

This Mustang is 9... just went at him like we'd train any other Mustang... shazam! sprinkeled magic fairy dust and we're goin riding...


After riding him again yesterday I'm really starting to like him, I mean really starting to like him. I'm still working on trying to find why they passed on this one. Just goes to show you if you're not shallow and vein you can find a lot of good horses right now. I've always thought too many look at all the wrong stuff when choosing a horse.
We'll see if the name sticks. I usually need to be around a horse for weeks and get a feel for hiom and his personality before I stat thinking on names.

If you don't think that it is easier to start working with a horse that is young than an older one that has never been handled than I am at a loss for words.

Well, all I am saying is that we've started too many to count over the last several years, more specifically 5-7 year olds over the past 2 years that were never touched. There was little if any difference.

Jonsey, was never handled or touched... we were on his back in 6 days, riding him in 13 days. Working him @ 90 min a day.

We've 2 more 6 year olds in the que ... I see no issues with them either. Jus' another pony to start.

The size of a horse has nothing to do with strength of toughness, I have seen too many smaller horse out pull and endurance larger horses. when I played football I benched pressed more than the lineman expect for one and they all out weighed me by nearly 100 pounds, no different with horses

I have been around horses all of my 62 years and there is a difference IME

My comment in no way was a slam on yer ponies foot color. It was merely a comment that over the hundreds of wild horses I've been around, you see few with white feet. Heck, the best horse on this place has 3 white hooves.....

No worries never took it as a slam...

I'd rather have too much horse than too little...

I'm bettin' big'un could/would take many smaller ones... just a hunch... ;-)

Off to ride...

jwp,
Race horses spend their lives on soft dirt and grass and they get the best farrier care. Mountain horses are just the opposite.

The main problem with race horses is that they start getting rides as 2 year olds before their bodies have matured including their bones and cartiledge. They break down a lot and get destroyed because of greed. Investors are too impatient to let the babies grow up and mature so that they can take the pounding they get. One of my close friends was a track vet at Ruidoso Downs, NM each summer. They run Quarters but the story is the same. Lots of drugs and tragedies.

pine, not all race horses are started at 2, the track has a hard base, horses are disqualified if a banned substance is detected they are tested after the race. Running all out is very hard on the front feet. I have been around horse racing a bit sounds like you just heard a bit and jumped to conclusions. Fast track are harder and as a consequence are harder on the horses

It is not all about starting young, cutting horses are also started young some start getting rode a bit a before they a 2 years old. Cutting horses do not on average have the leg injuries of race horse. Reining horse are also started young and they do suffer on average the leg injuries of race horse. Some horses have such of a will to win that they will put out past there capacity just to win

And too many are put out past their capacity to stay sound, let alone win.....

I don't have dog in this hunt, but I have sure seen a lot of smaller horses and mules out work bigger horses and mules.

Go to a lot of horse or mule pulls and you will see most smaller teams out pulling bigger teams based on percentages of pull vs weight.
Years ago when I was still using horses, I had several bigger ones that worked out in 2-3 days and smaller horses go 5-6 day. Pretty much held true with mules also.

We sent two Arabian mules, maybe 14 hds , 900lbs max over to the Amish in MO several years back to work in the fields all summer. The Amish would make one circuit around the fields with a team of Belgiums and had to change out. Those two mules worked all day, were never changed out all day and were ready to go the next day.
I don't know about foot color and toughness, but two mares I had, had white feet and I did have more problems with them than others. Could have been just a fluke, but they did take more care.
If it is an exceptional horse or mule, I might cut it some slack if it took extra care of the feet, but if two animals were equal in other respects, I'd only keep the one with good feet, white or dark

Spot on��

No hunt here jus' a bit of conversation.

Arabs, have a higher bone density than most horses. They were bred to cover long stretches of terrain in unfavorable conditions. Crossed with a mule I could see that they would be very well suited for long days. I wonder how "legged up" the belgiums were? I grew up in Amish country ( Lancaster Co. PA) saw a lot of teams working fields.

I guess this BLM pony ain't tough in everyones eyes, but I like my odds that he is. He's wearing 3's or 4's on his feet he's heavy boned, Deep chested and muscled up. Odds are that he'll cut through the mtns fairly well once he's legged up. Based on his stride and ability to move out. He may be able to keep pace with these rockies. Who knows maybe I'm making another myth... hehe

No problem here, just commenting. A lot of folks think just because an animal is bigger they work harder and do more work.Not necessarily true in all respects

One thing they forget is working in mountainous terrain especially, those big animals have to carry all that extra weight around. Efficiency goes down.

In MO, they have lot bigger fields than PA( I grew up in that country back in the 50's)

These belgiums were definitely in shape. The Amish work them all year and work them hard. Mowing hay is about the hardest work a team can do. People think plowing is, but mowing is a lot more work.

In my own experiences ,I have worn out big walker mules, 15+ hds in 3 days and yet have used little 13&1/2 or 14hd mules all week ,sometimes 10 days in the same terrain, with no days off and all of them being in the same physical condition before starting.

I surely hope what you think comes true with that big horse.

It is the same with dogs, the Iditarod the 1100+ mile sled dog race in Alaska uses a smaller dog than the Husky or Malamute for endurance. There is always an exception to the rule but in general it holds true. This also hold true in people, you just don't see many big people running long endurance races

Not really after winning a race... just want a double duty pony that has the build to handle mountain work. If I want speed, have somewhere to go or need to cover country with my hair n fire there's Jonesy. ;-)

Who is also headed towards double duty.



It would be a bit unfair to throw the hind 1/4's of an Elk on a "leeteler" horse in my opinion. I also like the odds "Big'un" will pull a downed tree to camp for misery whip duty.
Not say little ones can't pack but again. I've always leaned towards bigger is better and having too much is better than not having enough. That experinece and that hands on opinion comes from working for several outfitters over the years. There was a theme through out the guys who work the hills. Little ponies were for kids and duffel.

Reached out to previous owner and this "big-un" has already packed hind 1/4's and then some. Which makes sense why he was easy to be riden.

bullshit.......

hehe... thought for sure someone would step on that. Being that he has a lower center of gravity it's easier ;-)

Kudos to the lil guy...

I have little experience with race horses. But there is no comparsion between mustang and mule feet, and race horse feet.

Have worked some really good Spanish mules (small usually black), and Arabians. Small but mighty. Great endurance and handy in the mountains. They are easy to load and easy to get on. Bigger animals tend to be calmer and handle fording rivers better.

A good horse or mule in the mountains is any color and any size.

On a pack trip in Colorado back in the 1980s I worked as a wrangler with a ragtag bunch of critters that had not met each other before the trailhead. We had two small mules that were barely broke. Lots of snorting and rearing to pack them especially with elk blood on my hands. We used a blindfold and Scotch hobble. I came out with them with nearly 300 pounds apiece after 10 days in the snow. By dark they were dragging ass but easy to handle. I had a big mare that I could dally the lead rope with and pull them up hills. We made it to the trucks by midnight in a blizzard. I would trust those two little buggers anywhere because they were "double tough." I started calling them "Killer' and "Lightning" by about day three.

Nice!

Spot on on the fording rivers aspect. Wondered when someone would mention that in respect to a "big" horse. Not all are knee deep and slow.. some are knee deep and raging ;-) Some are deep enough to make you wet..

as in you ain't wet till your under britches are wet... deep...

Tough to take a lil one through that packed or riden...

Rick what is the "mountain build", that's a good one. Not speed but endurance is what I was talking about, the same thing that saddlesore was explaining. I rented 2 horse in 1980 for a do it yourself pack-in elk hunt both were about the same size, one was much older, yet was still going strong when the younger horse was worn out, size doesn't mean endurance. pine is correct a small horse or mule can do the work of packing in the mountain, size is not the determining factor


pine doesn't matter what good feet are good feet doesn't matter the discipline the horse is used for

I have packed little 42" mini mules and it's a fact they had to swim but over all, those big ones are too hard to lift packs on.

We must have a different breed of outfitters because here in Colorado almost all that I see are packing mules or horses less than 15 hds, most in the 14 or 14&1/2 size. They are using draft crosses for saddle mounts, but only because of the lard butt 300 lb hunters that keep showing up.The mama to these mules I have was a 13 hd haflinger built like a mini belgium and she could sure plow thru the snow. Only problem was my boots were in the snow.

Speaking of experience, I haven't worked with too many outfitters, but have been packing since 1969, that is 43 years worth of experience and riding for 60 + years. One good friend of mine packed 3 + months out of the year with an outfitter for 30+ years an he has the same opinion of big stock. Especially in the mountains and getting around in heavy timber. The big stuff might be OK for trails, but they sure get limited when you get off them in the blow downs or thick timber.

It's hard to find a stream more than 2 ft deep here up past 600 ft and mostly we are hunting at 8000ft+.So swimming is not on the list of high priorities

I totally agree the statement is BS of the smelliest kind

Ric, I like big stout horses too.

Of course I'm a little bigger too.

The Grey horse weights about a ton.

As far as little animals not packing loads. This guy packing the 1/2 of elk packed 200 lbs + of camps and many times full cow elk for almost 30 years.
He was 13&1/2 hds tall and didn't weigh 800 lbs on his best day. He was put down because of cancer last montht at almost 30 year sold.
The old army field manuals for packing mule states that mules being used every day on long campaigns should not be packed with more than 200 lbs and those were big 15&1/2-16 hd mules.

Saddlesore,
That picture tells a lot. A really nice sorrel outfit. I will take a critter with a big heart anytime. I have hung up my spurs, but still miss the mules.

I was hanging out with two neighborhood donkeys this morning. I still like to scratch the inside of their ears and watch the head gone down and the lower lip start to quiver. Long-eared equines are really smart and I still have affection for them.

Bone structure, feet, angles, Long pastern area, mind and heart.

It isn't uncommon to have a smaller horse out last a bigger horse. However, the back story before you begin is more important. If you have a big horse that is legged up equally compared to the smaller one they'll go for a long time. Many BIG horses get over looked and passed up and therefore are typically out of shape.
The bigger ones can go all day and then some (30 miles or more) if they are kept well.
If a guy is foolish enough to ride 30 miles on a pony then go use that pony to run and gun the next day again, well then he's foolish enough. The way I've bee "learned" to play in the hills is have 2 saddle horses. Better yet have more than that and make sure they all ride and pack.. much to that.

Walk in to any outfitters camp that works in the hills. Take a general overviews of the "types" that are the used. It won't take long to see and overall "theme".

Everyone has their preferences.

I have had both smaller ones and much bigger ones. What is it they say... "admire a big horse and ride a smaller one."

Probably true, however, I like em stout, muscled up, coffee can feet, agile, can do attitude with intelligence.
You can't go find a specific breed that does this. There are some better than others however. In my mind it is an individual thing. However, breeds with some draft in them ala draft cross(ish) isn't ever a real bad thing.

I guess where I've worked and play and although my experience is only 15+ years, the boys I've worked for and with have 5-6 times that much experience. You tend to look, listen and observe around em. They'll more often than not better your odds on what works in the hills. I mean what "works". Not trail-ride horses for Johnny and Suzy on a Saturday afternoon for an hour. Not a show sheen, long weekend get dressed up and be political horse either. Not to say you couldn't find one that does that but there arn't many.
Now with that you have to do right by your "mountain build" horses. Keep em in shape and tuned up. Many fail their horses that way.

TT,

wow.... what breed?

Draft cross. PMU horse. That big Grey horse has never quit on me. He is willing to take on any terrain, I have pointed him at. I tried to keep him legged up.

Pard packs a gray A-rab (among other equus) that is pretty small, but is tough enough that I keep saying that he deserves a better name. The gray's name is "The White Wuss".

Heck of a horse under a pack or riding saddle.

Our camp south of Yellowstone is 6 hours in. And it is not the farthest in. You will find very few small anything, mules or horses, in any of those camps.

Saddlesore mentioned this, but most of our hunters are 200-300lbs. Then add saddle, rifle, saddlebags and sometimes a huge daypack. And to make it worse they don't know how to ride so they usually sit like a sack of grain in the saddle. Our horses have to do this all fall and summer trips. I don't mind smaller horses but they won't hack carrying that for long.

This is a lot different than a recreational DIY hunter going out for a trip or three a year. You can get away with a lot more. Not a slam just a different deal.

We have some pretty good sized mules but most are just average size. We don't usually have to load them too heavy anyway.

The best dude horses in my opinion have big feet, lots of bone from the hoof up, stout, but not super tall (most dudes can't get on well either).

TT,

I wrangled for an outfitter then guided for him for a few years. All he had was PMU horses. Every year we'd take 2 trailers to Canada and come back with em full.

Not all were quite that big though.

Ralphie,

yep yep


Not a slam on anyone but if you do it enough with stuff to drag along. You generally start gravitating towards bigger. Slow and steady. Now if you're out to find new country or have a place to be sure is nice to have a legged up willing to move out sorta mount.
With as many supply runs and meat runs I did. I wish I would had a Rocky or 2 with a string of 6 that could keep up.

If you want to travel fast in the mountains, bring mules to ride as well as pack. The elk hunters in the Northern Rockies have figured this out a long time ago.

I like the story of riding with a mule club over on the other side of the Sierras. There were about 15 people in our group. Several mules were in their late 20s, oldest one was 33. We had many retired people in the group up to about 78-80.

We ran into the Placer County Search and Rescue group having lunch. Young people, rodeo types, all on Quarter horses with heeler dogs. Team ropers, barrel racers. They took one look at our outfit and left.

We ate lunch, mounted up and headed down the trail which was rough, and wet. Within 45 minutes the SAR group pulled over to let us pass. They were dumbstruck and did not say a word.

I went on a trail ride with STR up in Oregon a few times. The first ride I was the only guy on a mule with 100 people on horseback. The first two days they gave me a hard time. By day three all I heard was "where can I get a mule like that?" The $15,000 Quarters could not keep with my good molly Judith.

I'll partially agree with that. Mules in the hills ain't never a bad thing. Unless... ;-)

The mules we've borrowed from time to time would be hard pressed to keep pace with the rockies we've been training though. Not at the gait but just walking out as well.

I've yet to see many quarter horse that truly has it in the hills. Most of the ones that look like quarters that canhack a day are crossed with something.

price tags and papers are just that...

The more you post the less I think you really know about horses or mules for that matter

No worries I don't know all that much... and I learn more everyday. Truth is I look forward to it.

I think the issue is that you take exception to anything less than positive mentioned about a quarter horse. There is a reason they are name quarter horse. From expereince the ones I have seen that could handle the day in day out work in hills were not papered and didn't have a 5 figure price tag. Now I have been around a few that were alright. However, most of the ones that could hack it were a cross of such. My wife rode one for years. However he was a thoroughbred/quarter horse. 2 back his sire was a TB. Long legs, deep chest and muscled up. He could go all day long but not the best feet in the world.

It is no secret that many gaited breeds walk out very fast with long strides. Quarters have a hard time keeping pace. Many mules have a hard time keeping pace as well. but are better at staying with it.

Is the rocky the breed to end all. Hardly, but there are many many benefits to this breed in the hills. However, I don't see many that are horses I would choose to pack. It's also tough dragging a string off em because they do move out so well.

I also think my idea of going to the hills and yours, including the time spent are very different. ex:
Not real sure how you packed everything on 2 especially since I imagine you rode one. Many who work the hills generally say that it take 1.5 animlas to get a hunter's stuff to camp. That is also with camp set and all the daily essentials in camp.
My idea of going to the hills isn't a 2 hour trailride. Many times it's to the trailhead before first light and the real ride starts after you get through the hikers and 1-2 hour trailriders. Many times it also is a 2-3 day thing. Often it's draging a pack animal or 2. If I go Elk hunting it takes 3-4 pack animals not to mention the saddle horses.
Therefore, it is my opinion ( I'm allowed to have one on forums such as this) that quarter horses arn't the best suited for this and I wouldn't search out one for this.

One of the best rides I ever had was a mule. One of the toughest too. But I'm only guessing it was a mule cause it had long ears. Worst part about it was that she was so good that she was needed more for Dudes on multi day pack trips so thats where she earned her keep.
I'm a real fan of mules walk out nice, super smooth, typically tough as nails, good feet and sure footed. I like em so much I'm thinking of breeding my rocky mares with one.

I don't know all that much but I do know I have some experience and facts to draw from when it involves going to the hills.

Quarter Horses aren't on the list of the top 3 choices for rides. Good news for you.

Oh and I would also reconsider having your horses turned out with halters on... that much I do know. Jus'sayin'

First off I did pack everything that I took on them, 2nd by your own post you stated that 1/4 horse can't keep up with is BS and then you stated or "what looked like 1/4 horses. Hell a 1/4 horse can look exactly like the pictures of horses that you posted. There are dogs that carry the 1/4 horse moniker just like in all breeds and or crosses

You also stated that you wanted long pasterns, I am like why? Longer than normal is not a plus in fact it is a negative. One wants normal length with a proper angle. Next fact larger bones does not automatically mean a sounder tougher horse.

You named this thread "Double Tough Pony" and you do not know that for a fact because you just got the horse.

The bread is not the point it is the every thing that you have is superior I know for a fact that I have been riding, showing and working horse longer than you have been alive. Not long ago you at least in your mind were the best long range hunter, then the best guide outfitter, in fact it appears a real legend in your own mind. Now your a horseman of superiority. WOW the accomplishments, I suspect that saddlesore has a bit of experience with packing and mountains. This ain't rocket

Wow..dude...

No superiority here at all.. just sharing some of the expereinces, n stuff. Funny thing about forums you can read all sorts of stuff into them...

never said I want long pasterns...infact just the opposite. I said I look at the long pastern area. You know there is a long and a short pastern....?

I just got the horse but In know he packs well.

Double tough pony is in hopes he is. He sure is built like one.

You placing the best on anyting is your reading it in your own mind. I've done a few things. That's all.

Your post your quote you said it

Cocadori,
I can tell you are an experienced horse hand by your humility. I would ride with you anywhere.

This forum is a good example of a place with many challenging people and it is an oppotunity to develp thicker skin and learn to tune out those with lots of attitude and little skill.

Mules are smart. Many of them have learned to dog people and act old and slow. I traded for a mule that had been ridden a lot by kids. She was broke but had been jerked around and was pretty slow. After a few weeks of rides with spurs, a quirt and the use of the end of my mecate, she was permanently livened up. Putting a handle on her took longer. In the end she was a superior trail animal. Flat trots, the big extended walk, and she could walk down trails that horses slid down. Many people lend animals that are broke but slow. They are safer for the average newby.

Well said!

And this is directed at whom?

Yep I said it...

I LOOK at the long pastern AREA... wonder why...?

PPine,

Thanks, would enjoy ridin' with you and learning somthin' new!

Good looking horse there, Cocadori!

My boy is only 15 hands, but lightning quick and stout as they come. He and all of our horses go barefoot year round. If I'm going somewhere with rough rocks I can put boots on him, but if I don't he just walks a bit more careful. Both back feet are white and they wear just like his black front feet.

Thanks for sharing!

Ed

Hey thanks! I'll put hte tape on him and see how tall he is tomorrow. Just got hit with an impressive storm!

Doode JWP.. I look at the LONG pastern area to see that the pony isn't coon footed or to much slope in that area.
Short is good. Not too up and down and not too much slope. sheesh....

not softer, but white feet tend to have thinner hoof walls.

You could have said that to start with which is correct, but that is not what you said. You said LONG then denied saying it and then admitted saying it and now have gone full circle

That is the general consensus.

Look JWP, I said I look at the long pastern AREA. It is still there for you and everyone else to see it says AREA. After you wanted to know things I look for in a "moutain breed". I look at the AREA. Because I am looking for something specific. Actually less of something specific.
I never denied saying it I actually admitted it. YOU read it wrong or twisted it in your mind.

Might be a consensus. However, it is fact? I'm asking here because I'm not sure myself OR if it is factual or not.

Many here would pass on a white footed horse regardless of what other fundamentally positive attributes it has. In my opinion that's a shame. Throw on a good set of shoes, even pads hit the trails and have fun.

Wonder if diet has more to do with it than anything? Bought my grey horse when he was 7 or 8 ,some of the thinnest walled crappy grey hoof you would find. Never had anything to nail to and always pulling chunks off when they didn't hold. 10 years later his feet are close to perfect, even hoof wall and plenty to nail to. Shoes hold tight even after being on over three months! Just my observation one one horse.

I could lean that way for sure.

There seems to be some evidence that exercise on rough ground toughens up the feet over time also. Pulling the shoes in winter and letting the hoof wall flex can be helpful.

Some people even advocate adding rocks to your turnout rather than taking them away to toughen up feet. Ride em on rough ground to get them ready for more of it during hunting season.

It is a fact. Doesn't mean they have to have thin walls, but if a horse is wearing white soxs you owe yourself a look.

Ever notice the King Ranch never had a pony working their place with white feet?

Well I have many many to trim this year. Maybe I'll start keeping track of black and white feet to see where they are at...black thin walls, white thin walls, soft vs hard. I never paid much attention to the true numbers. Most of ours are on rocky, hilly terrain that is in our turn out/pasture sections. There was nothing that jumped out at me that had me leaning hard one way or the other. Sorta piques me interest now.

My paint has crappy feet and they're white. If I don't want problems I keep shoes on year round and and reshaw every 8 weeks. This horse would never make it in the wild.

The hoof is below the pastern and the ankle is above the pastern, so the "long pastern area" is the pastern

Texas is a state that clings to its folklore. The people in the Hill Country still talk about the juniper (cedar) that traveled on the backs of cattle coming from Mexico, when in reality it is a result of protection from fire.

Sweet Jesus...your point??? I still said I look at the area. Not look for a long pastern. Apparently, as I mentioned there is a long and short pastern.

But don't take my word for it ..go ask your vet.

Here's a diagram to get you started. According to this I was right. But I'm willing to re-learn if you have the facts to support it.

I believe the human eye see them in this manner

Still doesn't change the fact I said I look at the area. and I look at the area.?.well, we've been over that.

And if you know what you're looking for...well...

I am looking at "area which is between the hoof and the ankle and that is the way all horsemen that I have ever been around reference the subject. The term "long pastern area" means a long pastern at least in has with every horseman that I have ever conversed with until now

Well the bright side is you learn something new every day.

Give it a rest. We all know what I was saying and you are just belaboring a comment for the sake of draging this out.

All, whom all do you refer?

When you men are talking about feet, you should read Pete Ramey. He has been studying and trimming for years. Trims a few hundred every year.