Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Need Long range s/a Varmint thumper help

Mrs. Daisy...

I like it.

Since you boys are getting a little off track I will come back with a Leupold experience. Alas it is not a long range shooter; unless 200 yards with a .454 is long range. My Leupold Vari-X 2 1/2-8X32 sits in four T'SOB rings. Normally the rigs is in a cross the chest holster while hunting. On one occasion I tripped and fell forward. The revolver flew out and the rings impacted the only rock around.

I decided the hunt was over since I had no idea where it might hit in relation to the aiming point. To my delight it made a five shot group of 2 3/4" centered on the 100 yard target. The last time I checked it I fired a five shot 5" group at 200 yards

This is the only Leupie I own, but I have total confidence it it.

Are we back on track now?

elkhuntingguide's 9 of 13 Leup failure compared to the NF 1 of 11 failure (and the 1 has an asterisk) pretty much shut this thread down

Dude,

You really wanna keep going on this when you've been completely humiliated?

You should have quit before you started "grasping".

You're a Glutton For Punishment.

A Bolt, would love to hear you address elkhuntinguides Leup failure record in a logical manner.

Having known Clint for many years, I'm thinking he isn't feeling the least bit humiliated...

John

Only thing that got humiliated is leupolds fake reputation.
Usage does that, all on its own.

dave

Actually this discussion started because the OP asked for scope recommendations for LR coyotes and a bunch of guys with zero LR coyote experience started bashing Leupold scopes.

It never ceases to amaze me at some people�s inability to rationally observe an event and draw valid conclusions. LDS (Leupold Delusional Syndrome) at it�s finest.

When someone posts pictures that prove the exact opposite of his conclusions then I pretty much discount all the other failures he claims to have seen. The pictures prove, conclusively, that the Leupold optic adjusted exactly as one would expect but a few here still cling to their preconceived notions.

Actually a lot of us do have just that opportunity. We are also not limited in ammo selection or rifle selection. We have machinery, fixtures, and procedures that are levels of magnitude better than shown in the above mentioned test.

We also have hunting opportunities and real world experience to back up our statements.

There were also multiple offers to test the purportedly out of spec Leupold using proper fixtures or better rifles and proper procedures but such offers have been met with silence.


Well I don�t put much stock in Alien Abduction either but I guess just because I never get abducted that does not mean it is absolutely and totally impossible. I suspect if you wanted to search the internet you could find quite a few people who claimed to have been abducted, but until I have a little more concrete evidence of such things I am not going to lose much sleep.

Same applies to the totally ridiculous claims of high failure rates with Leupold scopes. The statistics bandied about here are so out of line with reality that it defies logic.



That seems pretty reasonable and the fact that many of the MK 4 Variables in the Army�s inventory have spent time on Barrett M107 might be considered a clue.



As stated in a previous post I would love to be able to have a look at a Leupold LR scope that had issues. With your high failure rate it should not be long before you have another give up the ghost. Interested in letting me play with it before you send it back to Leupold?


Really?????


I see you�re just interested in trading for Leupolds. Oops



Rick,

Some guys simply won�t accept real evidence because it is easier to blame poor shooting or a rifle that really isn�t accurate on the black magic that hides inside scope tubes made in Beaverton Oregon.

As has been admitted any optic can fail. I guess in the really big picture all optics will, at some point in time, fail.

That being said the failure rates claimed by some guys are, in my opinion, more indicative of their shooting than the Leupold LR line.

I still don't get it. Because you and RC have not observed such failure rates means it can't and doesn't happen?

Something like "I have used dozens of Leupolds and have not observed the failure rates you mention," I can understand. But this whole pretense that if you didn't see those failure rates yourself, it couldn't happen that way to someone else, is pretty ridiculous.

Are you sure you've never been abducted by aliens?

John

Hondo, dead animal pictures and a tracking test isn't enough to convince you that one's own experience and most of the other reported failures are due to lies or incompetence?

It convinces me that the one scope being used or tested was reliable at the time it was tested or the animals were taken, and that there was a competent shooter involved in the taking of said critters, but that's about all it convinces me of...

John

So has it been determined who can piss taller on the tree yet?

Well we are just victims of our experience, although most of the Leupold bashers in this thread seem to place a very high value on what others have told them.

I will admit that I have had very positive experiences with Leupold optics. I have personally used hundreds of them.

I have never seen a failure based on tracking or click values.

I have never had a Leupold optic fail me in the field, but I can remember a few times my ego really wanted to believe the scope had failed and not my shooting.

I have seen a few (5) spit the backlash o-ring but was instrumental in a change at Leupold to ensure the retaining disk was more securely crimped. I have never heard anyone else have this issue.

So based on my personal experience I am expressing my opinion that the high failure rates some have stated are figments of imagination. I also might have some inside info on what actually happens at Leupold when a scope is returned for �tracking issues�.

I do get to have an opinion and you are welcome to disagree.



I would remember the �probing�. Not so much a fan of unwanted �probing�.

Well maybe, just maybe, it gets mounted on an apparatus that is able to hold it rigidly and securely enough to evaluate its fuction while it is focused on a laser-leveled board accurately marked in MOA and MILrad?


Nah! That wouldn't prove squat!


BTW John,

Your posts are waaaay too based in fact and proven field experience recently. To really get through to the LDS crowd, I would advise more one line Trolling-based posts based on hearsay to make your assertions really hit home.

Barret supplies the Leupy as a package deal with the M107... I've had the opportunity to run the .50 In Country on numerous occasions and in only 2 instances did it still have the Leupy on board... Of the Unit's that could and had the resources to change their optic, "Most" were replaced with a S&B, US Optics or NightForce... That would be a "Clue"...

Please expound on your overwhelming use of an M107 In Country and the times that you put your life in the hands of that particular MK4...


I will be more than happy to send you the next Leupy that schits the bed... As a matter of fact I'll mount one up on a truck gun and use it every day like I use my NF Compact...



I see reading comprehension is not your strong suit and I don't think it is possible for me to type any slower for you, so I will change font color on the important parts... Not to mention the post you quoted was over a year old and I have learned a bit since then... So yes... REALLY!!!!





I have seen no REAL evidence posted... I see a lot of hero pics with yardages posted that can't be proven... A half assed attempt showing reticle comparison at 29.6 yards or there about... The NF reticle not lined up with the board subtentions/marks and as we both know the leupy being a 2nd focal plane one can get the reticle to match the story board by adjusting the power ring...

I am not bashing leupold as I own a bunch of them... I would not go out on a limb to champion them either... IF I would have had as many NF/S&B/US Optics/any other brand scope fail as much I would have posted that as well... I am not a Fan Boy of any product but am a Fan of schit that works and works all the time... In my experience Leupold does not fall in that category for me... YMMV...

If you feel so strongly on Leupold and appear to stand behind their product why would you change to a 20 MOA turret with a zero stop on the product you push verses just running standard Leupold turrets ( M1's, M2s, M3's, M5's, target, CDS etc) Just curious...

Look back at the post. I took the pictures just to show the method used. If you look at the picture of the Nightforce in the rings, you'll see the top of the rings are not even mounted on the scope. That's because I forgot to take pictures before I performed the test on that particular scope. I then performed the test on the VX3 and took pics during the whole thing. After I took the VX3 out of the rings, I simply laid the Nightforce in the rings and took some pics without being too critical about its alignment.

Why you make it a point to say "29.6 yards" as if this discounts anything, I have no idea, unless you are completely unaware that the distance is meaningless. A MIL or MOA at 5 yards is a MIL or an MOA at 1000 yards. They just happen to subtend a different distance at each.

The pics are not the story. The scope evaluation sheet is.

As you can see, I rated each reticle objectively. The FFP Nightforce reticle was rated great, only being off by the width of the crosshair starting at the 4 MIL mark. That's not enough to make you miss when holding off or over, so I rated it as a negligible difference...

But...The Leupold's TMR reticle was perfect. In case you don't know, SFP ballistic reticles are set to be true at the highest power. The Leupold's TMR was perfect at the highest power as advertised, so what can I tell you...

Since you gleaned nothing from the objective report, I'll also remind you that the GLARING difference between the two scopes was about $1600.00 in cost. You can buy 2 and 1/2 VX3's for the cost of a FFP Nightforce and have equal or better performance.

A good question would be, why can't Nightforce manufacture a scope at that price, which is supposed to be their best product and ONLY FFP scope, that is head and shoulders above what Leupold can manufacture at about 1/3 the price? I expect a $2600.00 scope to be PERFECT.






Glad you asked!


The Mark 4 LR/ERT's with the M1 and M5 knobs are great and have served me well on hunting rifles and competition rifles. I've won a few things and matched some high scores with them. All of this with a scope that is at least $1000.00 to $2,000.00 cheaper than many of the other scopes I could have chosen. S&B, Nightforce, US Optics, etc...


First of all, it's a 10MIL per revolution reticle, not MOA.

What drew me to the M5A2 were the locking elevation turret and the COVERED windage turret. There has been times that when packing the rifle, I've somehow moved the windage knob and it's cost me a target. I've seen my fellow competitiors do it as well with the scopes they use. A buddy of mine who shoots for Leupold is using the Mark 8 right now. I liked the locking turret feature, but not the Horus reticle. The Mark 4 has the TMR, which I prefer as well.











Not only does it have a zero stop, but a rev indicator so you can't get confused. Plus with the 10 MIL per rev adjustment range, it's not often you even need to use the next rev.

The reason I'm glad you asked was that we haven't even started comparing all of the manufacturer's offerings THAT ARE IN THE SAME PRICE RANGE.

The Mark 4 LR/ERT FFP M5A2 happens to be in the same price range as the tested Nightforce. It also happens to be better than the Nightforce in every category on the Scope Evaluation Sheet.

When I stated that my gunsmith told me that it was the best scope he's ever evaluated, it's no BULL$HIT.

The Reticle is PERFECT
The Click Values are PERFECT all the way to the end of adjustment
Vertical Tracking is PERFECT all the way to the end of adjustment

The evaluation goes like this:
The scope is dialed while viewing through the eyepiece and set up on the board until it reaches a particular line that is marked. The operator then looks up at the knob and notes what it says it was supposed to have moved the reticle.

Dial to the 10 mil mark and look up.... 10 mils
Dial to the 15 mil mark and look up.... 15 mils

This continued till the elevation travel stopped and it was PERFECT at 23 mils. He has never seen this with any scope in the 25 years he's been doing it. Although his Vortex Razor, tested well after mine was, hung right there with the M5A2.

You'll see that the Nightforce can't hold a candle to it, being off about .2 MIL starting at 12 MILs and out. Still I rated the Click Value of the Nightforce to be great as well, just not PERFECT like the Leupold.

Like you, I just use $hit that works.
But UNLIKE You, I KNOW what works.

I'm very aware of what an MOA and a MIL are as well as the difference between a 1st and 2nd focal plane scope and how their reticles work...

Thus the reason I asked this question in a previous post that was never answered...

Distance will matter in your test as compared to the substensions marked on your test board... If the marks are an inch apart then you can not use it to measure a scopes reticle at 100 yds or if they are 3.6 inches apart you can not use it to measure the reticle at 29 yards...At least the way you have it pictured...

I "gleaned nothing from the objective report" after considering the source... A report can be written to favor one side or the other... If price is the determining factor one could put a Vortex Viper in against the Leupold and the tables would shift if written by a Non-Pro Leupold individual...

What you have showed is that both scopes work close to advertized while sitting at a table running a turret... Both scopes may work perfectly in "Real Hard Field" use or one can schit the bed the first day out... That would be my concern...

Thanks for your overzealous hasty response to my question but that question was directed to John and not you, thus the reason I quoted John... At least you took the opportunity to Plug Leupold once again...



Before you get too carried away,sticking out your ribs running your man pleaser from behind that keyboard, I would much more prefer that you tell me what I do and do not know in person... I live less than 20 miles from the NRA and am in Albuquerque at least once every two weeks... We should continue that discussion at a later date...

Regarding th OP, the 'easy button' answer is a 243 Win.

After that it becomes an exercise in splitting hairs.

The marks on the board are MILS and MOA for the exact distance from the scope to the board. IOW, the distance to the board from where the jig is set up was measured to the 1/16" inch. With that distance known, the spacing between the lines delineating MIL and MOA were calculated and marked.

I don't know why your panties are in a ruffle, but I'll gladly continue the conversation with you at the SRM next month or here as well. Heck, we could shoot the SRM together and compare how well each others scope works!